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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: hjalmar]
    #6798518 -

> How the hell is it possible for someone to be able to buy that much ammo?

In the US there are very few restrictions on ammo sales. I used to buy .22 shells, 50 at a time, as a teenager, without any hassle. Of course, this was before the Brady Bill, etc, so things may have changed. However, even a few years ago (well, more than a few now, seven or eight), I bought 500 rounds of Federal Gold Match .308 for my sniper rifle and it was no big deal. The sales guy was surprised I wanted so many rounds, but placed the order for me. I wanted all my rounds to be from the same lot, which is why I bought so many at once.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: Seuss]
    #6798552 -

Seuss said:
> The only reasonable solution to this kind of problem is to outlaw guns.

Yes, that way only criminals have guns.  Since we cannot get rid of guns... it will not happen, even if they are illegal... the only reasonable solution is to arm everybody...

> People kill people with guns.

... and with knives, and with bats, and with cars, and with glass bottles, and with about anything that can be used as a weapon.  A gun makes an effective weapon, but that doesn't mean that people must have a gun in order to kill.

The statement "Guns don't kill, people kill" is accurate.  I don't know of a single case where a person was killed, or even shot, by a gun that was not being  held by a person or by a machine controlled by a person.  Guns are inanimate objects that do not have a mind of their own.  The user of the gun is responsible, not the gun itself.

> also, people who say that banning guns is pointless as criminals will always be able to get them

Because it is a true statement.  With something like 200 million legal guns in the US (plus however many million illegal guns), you are not going get rid of them any more than you are going to stop people from smoking cannabis.  The guns will always be available to those that want them.  We have seen the effects of prohibition of drugs on society... the prohibition of guns would create the same kind of black market problems.

> Also, isnt it morally repulsive that your country legally provides these murderers with their weapons?

The US isn't socialist... it is the governments job to protect the people's rights... not to babysit them or take away all the toys with sharp edges.  The country did not provide "these murderers" with their weapons.  The government does not provide guns to US citizens... though now if I think about it, if they had, then this probably wouldn't have happened... but, getting back on point... The fault lies with the person that pulled the trigger... he made the choice to kill... if it wasn't a gun, it would have been a knife, a car, a bomb, poison, or something else.

> if you had tougher gun laws, you'd have less situations like this.

The problem isn't needing tougher laws, for the most part, but rather the problem is the lack of enforcement on the current laws.  Cops are too busy busting drug users to worry about little things like violent crime.  (I don't blame the cops; it is the politicians that created the mess.)

> Give me an example of any massacre where "right to arms" has helped those being attacked (the most common pro-gun argument

Fallacious question... if the "right to arms" worked, then there would be no massacre... However, I have not heard of a single massacre where one of the victims was armed.

> Shouldn't it be: people with guns kill people?

Nope, better is: People kill; guns make effective weapons.



You sound like a politician! Selective quoting of my arguments! Thats not debate! :crankey:

America has an out of control gun culture. If you made ownership of guns illegal, and people returned their guns (like we did in the UK with knives during the knife amnesty) you'd reduce gun culture.

Will you not admit that these spates of shootings are entirely down to you gun culture? You dont see them in the UK. If you want to stop children and innocents getting shot, you have to take steps, you cant keep blabbing on about how "guns dont shoot themselves", and how you need to protect your own ass. Would you not sacrifice your right to own a gun if it would save other people's lives? Trouble with the US that it is, more than any other country, egocentric, not sociocentric. People put themselves first, not the greater good, moreso than anywhere else in the world.


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: mr_kite]
    #6798613 -

> You sound like a politician! Selective quoting of my arguments! Thats not debate!

Hey, no flaming!  j/k  ...though sounding like a politician, in my mind, is about the worst insult I can imagine.  *chuckle*

I didn't mean to selectively quote with ill intent... I was scrolling up and down through all the posts answering whatever jumped out at me to help make my point, rather than to debate yours.

> Will you not admit that these spates of shootings are entirely down to you gun culture?

I'm not certain what you mean by "gun culture".

> You dont see them in the UK.

Nope, in the UK, they bomb the subways instead.  Not that the US hasn't had it's share of idiot home grown bombers, but my point is that people will kill if they want to kill regardless of having access to guns or not.

> If you made ownership of guns illegal, and people returned their guns

Will not happen without a constitutional amendment and that simply will not happen, especially not to something in the US Bill of Rights (1st ten amendments that were passed along with the constitution).  The best that can happen (from a gun control standpoint) is the courts interpreting the 2nd to mean state militias rather than citizens... but the courts have been through this many times, and I don't see a change (nor would I support one).

> Would you not sacrifice your right to own a gun if it would save other people's lives?

Yes, I would, but there is no way to know that if I sacrifice my right to own a gun that it would save other people's lives.  It isn't the people like me that abuse the right to own a gun.  The criminals that are going to use guns for violence are not going to give up their weapons.  Why create a society where only criminals can carry weapons?

> Trouble with the US that it is, more than any other country, egocentric, not sociocentric.

Right... :rolleyes:

I do agree that most European countries are typically more 'mature' than the US, especially when it comes to things like capital punishment... but people are people regardless of where you live... and European countries are just as guilty as the US or any other country in the world for looking out for their own first.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: mr_kite]
    #6798899 -

Mr. Kite Said:

"Give me an example of any massacre where "right to arms" has helped those being attacked (the most common pro-gun argument - the ability to protect yourself from "evil people")."





They happen EVERY DAY!


YOU are welcome to visit the following website to read daily uses by civilians of firearms to save a life or prevent a crime: (from Evil people)

http://claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html



There is media bias against guns!

"The Bias Against Guns: Why Almost Everything You've Heard About Gun Control is Wrong - By John R. Lott, Jr. (Regnery)

Disarming America
A review of The Bias Against Guns: Why Almost Everything You've Heard About Gun Control is Wrong, by John R. Lott, Jr.
By Joseph Bessette
Posted August 27, 2003


This review appeared in the Fall 2003 issue of the Claremont Review of Books. Click here to send a comment.

In January 2002, a former student of Appalachian Law School in Virginia, who had flunked out the year before, returned to discuss his academic suspension. Unable to achieve reinstatement, he went into the office of the school's dean and shot him fatally with a .380 semiautomatic handgun from point-blank range. He then did the same to one of the school's professors. On his way out he shot four female students, killing one and wounding the others in the abdomen, the throat, and the chest. The carnage ended, according to nearly all the news accounts, when several students tackled the offender as he exited the building. According to John Lott, however, 204 of 208 news stories on the incident somehow failed to mention a telling fact about the offender's apprehension: two male students ran to their cars to get their guns, and by brandishing one at him forced the killer to drop his weapon. Then they tackled him.

The reporters (and perhaps their editors) failed to mention this dramatic use of guns for self-defense despite the fact that one of the student heroes had explained in detail, to more than 50 reporters, how he and his friend had ended the rampage. When Lott called the Washington Post to find out why its story hadn't mentioned the guns, the reporter, who had written only of the students "pouncing" on the offender, confirmed that both the armed students had told her the same story but that she didn't focus on the "details" of the incident; also, "space constraints" were a factor. Even more striking, the Associated Press media relations manager, while denying any intention to downplay the defensive use of guns, expressed his shock at the students' actions. As he told the Kansas City Star, "I thought, my God, they're putting into jeopardy even more people by bringing out these guns."

If the American people don't realize how often guns are used for self-defense, they are hardly to blame; the media, especially the national media, don't often tell them. Lott offers another example. Five years before the attack at Appalachian Law School, 16-year-old Luke Woodham made national headlines when, after stabbing his mother to death at home, he took a rifle to his high school in Pearl, Mississippi, and shot nine of his classmates, killing two, including his girlfriend. Scarcely reported at the time was that an assistant principal apprehended Woodham only after running to his pickup to retrieve his .45 caliber pistol (parked far enough from the school to avoid violating the 1,000 foot "gun-free zone" (required by federal law). "I had my pistol's sights on him," the school official explained later. He ordered Woodham to lie on the ground: "I put my foot on his back area and pointed my pistol at him."

http://www.venusproject.com/books_authors/john_lott.html


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #6798972 -

I am a law abiding citizen (except stupid drug laws), and I would NEVER give up my right to bear arms. In the future, I plan on carrying a concealed weapon... when I move to a state that allows this.

The right to bear arms is important. Giving up your guns allows the government to do anything they want without fear of uprising. The US gun laws have been eroding away our ability to protect ourselves, from crazy korean students AND our government.

Armed rebellion is a reality, even in our magical country of milk and honey... We started as an armed rebellion for fuck's sake.

Gun laws only protect criminals, becasue by definition CRIMINALS DO NOT OBEY LAWS! Children in America should be educated on guns from an early age, and at 18 should have the option to own one, just like a car. Cars kill more people than guns, and they are a pretty commonplace and socially accepted "risk" that anyone has the right to own.

If ONE person on that campus had a concealed handgun, proper training and enough bravery, there would have been no massacre... Only a crazy animal put down by a helpful citizen of the USA. :shrug:

BTW, in my youth I was all for gun control because I used the same flawed logic as most of you from the UK... No guns, no problems. But it doesn't work that way, and we fled YOUR country long ago in order to have that right...

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #6798989 -

so why the media bias? I read that whole article and didn't really see any sufficient reasoning, unless I managed to gloss over it.


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6799041 -

magical country of milk and honey, where you need to arm yourself in order to feel safe? kinda contradictory :smile:


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quest for a fully automatized climate

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: elbisivni]
    #6799042 -

elbisivni said:
so why the media bias? I read that whole article and didn't really see any sufficient reasoning, unless I managed to gloss over it.


Did you really?



The reporters (and perhaps their editors) failed to mention this dramatic use of guns for self-defense despite the fact that one of the student heroes had explained in detail, to more than 50 reporters, how he and his friend had ended the rampage. When Lott called the Washington Post to find out why its story hadn't mentioned the guns, the reporter, who had written only of the students "pouncing" on the offender, confirmed that both the armed students had told her the same story but that she didn't focus on the "details" of the incident; also, "space constraints" were a factor. Even more striking, the Associated Press media relations manager, while denying any intention to downplay the defensive use of guns, expressed his shock at the students' actions. As he told the Kansas City Star, "I thought, my God, they're putting into jeopardy even more people by bringing out these guns."

"my God, they're putting into jeopardy even more people by bringing out these guns."


"204 of 208 news stories on the incident somehow failed to mention a telling fact about the offender's apprehension"



"defensive uses of guns in the United States number about two million per year (dwarfing the number of gun crimes)"

I'll find you some more links on The Bias Against Guns.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: Arp]
    #6799064 -

Arp said:
magical country of milk and honey, where you need to arm yourself in order to feel safe? kinda contradictory :smile:


Most people in this country are SHEEP. (they would never think of intentionally harming another human being.) But there is a small percentage of Wolves out there. (evil people)

Back in my coke days I knew a few evil third world drug dealers that scared the shit out of me....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: mr_kite]
    #6799159 -

mr_kite said:
America is the only nation in the developed world that thinks like this. People kill people with guns. You're not going to get a strangler massacaring 30 people in one go.


You're also not going to be able to take down a deer with a knife. :rolleyes:

Quote:
If you had tougher gun laws, you'd have less situations like this. Give me an example of any massacre where "right to arms" has helped those being attacked (the most common pro-gun argument - the ability to protect yourself from "evil people").


There are countless stories, feel free to use Google... "Tougher" gun laws are not necessary, and its revealing that you would use such a term. More regulation might be in order, but to deny individuals the right to bear arms in America is not right.

Maybe the rest of the world does not understand this because the rest of the world is so used to monarchies and being slaves to others. :shrug:

Quote:
How many children and people are going to be shot dead before your nation changes the laws?


Put on your thinking cap for a moment. Incidents such as this one are extremely rare. The type of people who commit these acts are fucked in the head. Changing a law is not going to have any effect on these fucking nuts going around and killing people. By making guns illegal, you are simply making criminals of the vast majority of gun-owners that are responsible and use them for valid reasons.

Quote:
(edit) also, people who say that banning guns is pointless as criminals will always be able to get them: making something readily available is simply encouraging the problem.


Guns are not "readily available". Perhaps we could take more steps in regulation to more effectively screen it out, but what you fail to understand is that you cannot obstruct the right of the American people to own guns. I mean, you have fucking nuts that will hiijack an airplane and kill people with it - are we going to take away airplanes now? :rolleyes:

Quote:
Reduce the availability, reduce the number in circulation, reduce the number of shootings.


You forgot about the millions of people that have a right to own guns, who use them for valid reasons. Your approach is not realistic in America, at least (the other countries in the world can be as stupid as they like). One could say with the same line of reasoning that by reducing the availability of cars, we subsequently reduce the number of car accidents. It isn't a reasonable statement to make.

Quote:
Also, isnt it morally repulsive that your country legally provides these murderers with their weapons? Your government allowed this man to purchase and use a firearm to do this deed.


No, it isn't. His actions were his own. In America, we don't appreciate it when our rights as Americans are taken away because of the actions of a few. England is used to having a monarchy that controls their lives and makes their decisions for them - well, guess what, America said fuck that. :smirk:

Quote:
I say the blood's partly on the hands of the pro-gun lobbyists. if everyone was anti-gun, noone could be said to have encouraged use of guns.


Yeah, now if we can only get everyone to be anti-drug as well, then there would be no usage of drugs! :nonono:

I say the blood is in the hands of the individual who committed the act. The act was unfortunate, but its reality. Maybe some people just have a difficult time dealing with reality and feel the need to look for ways to control other people's lives.

I read an article about world opinion regarding the incident and how we need more gun control. Oh what, is the rest of the world going to spank us? Take away our toys? You've been bad, America, bad! :rolleyes:

Our rights are our own - a lot of people do not understand what it means to live in a land of freedom. :shrug:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #6799184 -

Did I really what?

I did read all of that but it only provides minimal information as to why the reasoning behind the media bias only in that particular case.

I never said it wasn't true or anything, I'm just interested in explanations of the media bias because it is news to me :smile:


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: elbisivni]
    #6799238 -

I hear you.

IMO the MSM LIES about everything.


Here is another interesting article.




COLUMN: Law school, guns, and a media bias

By James Eaves-Johnson

The Daily Iowan (U. Iowa)
01/24/2002


COLUMN: Law school, guns, and a media bias





(U-WIRE) IOWA CITY, Iowa -- Last week, a disgruntled student at Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, Va., went on a shooting spree. Peter Odighizuwa tragically shot six people, killing Dean Anthony Sutin, Associate Professor Thomas Blackwell, and student Angela Dales.
Most news reports pointed out that the situation ended when several students "confronted," "tackled," or "intervened." However, Tracy Bridges, Ted Besen, Todd Ross, and Mikael Gross did not merely "confront" Odighizuwa. Bridges and Gross separately ran to their cars to get their handguns once the shooting began. Bridges approached Odighizuwa with Besen's and Ross' aid. Gross was close behind. According to Bridges, "I aimed my gun at him, and Peter tossed his gun down." Bridges, Besen, and Gross had previously received police or military training.

Unfortunately, the media did not point out that the "intervening" students were armed. A Lexis-Nexis search revealed 88 stories on the topic, of which only two mentioned that either Bridges or Gross were armed. A Westnews search exposed worse results. It revealed 112 stories, of which only two mentioned the armed students.

With media bias like this, it is no wonder that people fail to see the benefits of gun ownership. This was a very public shooting with a lot of media coverage. Even here, reporters rarely presented the positive side of firearms. Instead, they preferred to default to the politically correct story portraying guns as something only the bad guy uses.

Of course, this media bias is not unprecedented. A more thorough Lexis-Nexis search by a Yale researcher revealed 687 articles on the school shooting in Pearl, Miss. Of those, only 19 mentioned that Assistant Principal Joel Myrick retrieved a gun from his car and stopped the shooters four-and-a-half minutes before police arrived.

Few will remember that an armed guard helped many students at Columbine escape and was thwarted only when shooters began using explosives. Fewer still will remember that a restaurant owner who was hosting a school dance for students in Edinboro, Pa., stopped a student shooter 11 minutes before police could arrive.

Our my

Few will remember that an armed guard helped many students at Columbine escape and was thwarted only when shooters began using explosives. Fewer still will remember that a restaurant owner who was hosting a school dance for students in Edinboro, Pa., stopped a student shooter 11 minutes before police could arrive.

Our myopic view of guns leads too many of us to believe that if we disarm people, we will be safer. Unfortunately, mandatory disarmament only disarms those who are interested in obeying the law. Laws against gun ownership and possession are ineffective against those who would do us harm.

No one would believe that people in Iowa City don't smoke marijuana or that underage college students don't find ways to procure alcohol. Why should we be any more naïve when it comes to rules against firearms?

I was unable to discover Appalachian School of Law's weapons policy, but if it is like almost every other law school in the country, it probably prohibits students from possessing guns on campus. That is probably why Bridges and Gross did not have their guns on their persons. Imagine what these men might have prevented if they could have responded immediately, guns in hand.

Unfortunately, at the University of Iowa, we are more defenseless. The university prohibits the possession of firearms. At our law school, as on most of the campus, people would be unable to run to their cars to fetch their guns, as the only available nearby parking is on university property.

Even worse, our Public Safety officers would be unable to protect us. Only last week did the state of Iowa Board of Regents decide to arm Public Safety officers with air Tasers. Most Tasers are ineffective at more than 21 feet, and they can be defeated with a heavy coat. The UI officers are trained to use firearms, like ordinary police officers, and they have the authority to do almost everything an Iowa City police officer does.

The university should allow responsible individuals with defensive firearms training to carry arms on campus. That begins with the officers who are responsible for our safety. Right now, we are at the mercy of any thug willing to come on campus with a gun. Many would be murdered before Iowa City police could arrive. The presence of responsible armed individuals on campus could reduce or prevent the harm done by a thug. Just over 10 years ago, the UI was visited by such a thug. We are just as defenseless

http://www.uwire.com/content/topops012402002.html


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: Seuss]
    #6799348 -

Seuss said:

> You dont see them [shootings] in the UK.

Nope, in the UK, they bomb the subways instead. Not that the US hasn't had it's share of idiot home grown bombers, but my point is that people will kill if they want to kill regardless of having access to guns or not.

Ahh yes, because Cho could have easily strangled 32 people to death without any resistance. One by one, he'd go up to people and strangle them for 3 minutes, while everyone else cowered in horror. Some faked there own strangles or strangled themselves to avoid his asian hands. Even if he had a knife, I'm sure someone in a room full of people would have said "He's only one guy you idiots! Let's get a fucking desk and throw it at him!"


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Edited by beatnicknick (04/17/07 11:48 AM)

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #6799373 -

lonestar2004 said:
Arp said:
You can threaten the symptom or treat the disease :smirk:







wearing a vest covered in clips..... If he just had some counseling and Prozac this may never have happened....



Turns out he was getting counseling and on anti depressants...




"The suspected gunman in the Virginia Tech shooting rampage, Cho Seung-Hui, was a troubled 23-year-old senior from South Korea who investigators believe left an invective-filled note in his dorm room,
The note included a rambling list of grievances, according to sources. They said Cho also died with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on one of his arms.

Cho had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women.

A note believed to have been written by Cho was found in his dorm room that railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070417vtech-shootings,0,1137509.story?coll=chi-homepagepromo440-fea

Sounds like a Dem...


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6799382 -

FrenchSocialist said:
The only reasonable solution to this kind of problem is to outlaw guns. I'm sure people could still use knives, but I don't think that anyone could kill 30 people with a knife at a college campus.


I have not read the whole thread, I just came across this incredibly stupid post about half way through and had to respond regardless of anything else subsequent.

Guns were in fact outlawed on campus. Anybody who thinks that outlawing guns will eliminate guns is a blithering idiot of almost criminal moronity. How's that working out vis a vis drugs? You having any problem getting high?

In general, one does have to wonder why, amongst the hundreds of students and professors, not one had the temerity to take matters into his own hands and do something to thwart this psych. I cannot fault any single individual but I can express a general disgust with the whole "It's not my job" ethos that seems to have permeated academia and children in general that led to absolutely NOBODY doing anything at all. I am mostly disgusted with the professors, who were probably damn near first out the window. I know hind sight is bullshit, but fuck, hide behind the door, let him half way in and then slam him with the door. Everybody else rush him.

I cannot at all fault any specific individual but the fact that no individuals stepped up, out of a pool of hundreds, is disheartening and a symptom of the liberal mindset. No one was able to be proactive and take matters into his own hands.


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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6799393 -

Actually, at least one professor was shot in the head when he was trying to hold the door shut so his students could escape out the windows. Not everyone there was chickenshit.

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #6799397 -

Quote:
Sounds like a Dem...


and Timothy McVeigh was a registered Republican. So what? Neither individual is a reasonable figurehead for either party.

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6799401 -

Quote:
I cannot at all fault any specific individual but the fact that no individuals stepped up, out of a pool of hundreds, is disheartening and a symptom of the liberal mindset.


:lol:

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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: Redstorm]
    #6799421 -

Sorry to hear that. He was a great man. Or woman.


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Re: the VA tech massacre ..yes..it is the conservatives' fault... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6799431 -

It is amazing to me that a single individual can somehow manage to kill over 30 people single-handedly without being stopped. Christ, he had to reload at some point.

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