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Subjective and Objective Castaneda style
    #6716079 -

Seeing Castaned style is viewing things as their true essence. Without our cultural description which is overlaid on that essence. Carlos made this statement. " After years of struggle when I finally learned to "see", I realized that I had been seeing my whole life". So maybe there is an objective reality. But we relate to it by describing it to ourselves; a subjective description; a description that was implanted by our cultural programming from birth. To stop describing things to ourselves, to see things without deciding if we like them or hate them or have any thought about them, might be the way to see the objective Universe.:mushroom2::mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Icelander]
    #6716086 -

But what about the luminescent eggs?

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #6716092 -

What about em CK?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Icelander]
    #6716127 -

Hmm nothing really, i guess they are just on a different frequency. Vibrating at a different level? But in his book he described some people as nothing more then luminescent eggs. But now I remember in various books. They describe the human energy fields and the aura. Shaped like an egg. So maybe that was what he and I were getting at with that.

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Icelander]
    #6716140 -

I also wonder how it would be to raise an animal or a human being from birth until adult hood with total sensory deprivation. Nothing more then the persons on mind stimulation. Kinda like Matrix style but without the whole movie theme. If we could see what that brain was doing and what dreams or places the mind was going to. The states of awareness and the persons consciousness. Maybe even get aura photos. The person would be innocent in ways we couldn't possibly find in any other scenarios. Maybe the mind of a child. Or maybe that mind matured on it's own. I wonder what the results of an experiment like that would have. Do think we should do something like that. No not really. I wouldn't want to fuck with someone else's life.

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #6716274 -

Quote:
Hmm nothing really, i guess they are just on a different frequency. Vibrating at a different level? But in his book he described some people as nothing more then luminescent eggs. But now I remember in various books. They describe the human energy fields and the aura. Shaped like an egg. So maybe that was what he and I were getting at with that.


He was seeing them as luminescent eggs before he started to "see" for real. I think what he saw back was just a part of "seeing". Just another part of "the whole"

Quote:
I also wonder how it would be to raise an animal or a human being from birth until adult hood with total sensory deprivation. Nothing more then the persons on mind stimulation. Kinda like Matrix style but without the whole movie theme. If we could see what that brain was doing and what dreams or places the mind was going to. The states of awareness and the persons consciousness. Maybe even get aura photos. The person would be innocent in ways we couldn't possibly find in any other scenarios. Maybe the mind of a child. Or maybe that mind matured on it's own. I wonder what the results of an experiment like that would have. Do think we should do something like that. No not really. I wouldn't want to fuck with someone else's life.


I don't think the result would be conclusive because we have the sensory "DNA" in us. So the person would still sense, only in a more limited and repeated way. We are made of both parts, subjective ( describable) and indescribable. And we need to be in full contact with both of them while we're alive... In order to "see" we need to "touch" first, I guess... that's the way it goes for us.
But I don't think that total deprivation from sensory deprivation would help with anything.
Modern society makes us forget about the "seeing"... you suggest to make one forget about "feeling", it's pretty much the same thing.
The beauty is in being aware of both of them and make them come in harmony.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Icelander]
    #6716403 -

Seeing Castaned style is viewing things as their true essence. Without our cultural description which is overlaid on that essence. Carlos made this statement.

I don't think culture is needed to obscure viewing something as its true essence. The way I see it, seeing usually involves TWO levels of abstraction.
1. Outside signals are abstracted by the human eye; only a small portion of electromagnetic waves (even just going by what we have already detected with instruments...) are picked up by the eye; it's like applying a stamp to an inkpad; one pattern is applied out of many possibilites.
2. The mind, usually through words, abstracts the pattern picked up by the eye.

The second abstraction can be minimized, but there is no way around the first.

"After years of struggle when I finally learned to "see", I realized that I had been seeing my whole life". So maybe there is an objective reality.

The way I view this quote is that he had been doing abstraction #1 his whole life, he just had not been conscious of it. Maybe "consciousness of perception" would be a more ordinary term, but in perception, I just mean the transition from the unknown mystery of what's really out there (which is the objective) over to the first order unspeakable senses.


But we relate to it by describing it to ourselves; a subjective description; a description that was implanted by our cultural programming from birth. To stop describing things to ourselves, to see things without deciding if we like them or hate them or have any thought about them, might be the way to see the objective.

Again, this gets rid of abstraction #2. My take is that when you get rid of this, you do not see that something is actually a certain way, but see that before it is named, there is mystery on the surface level perception.

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #6716444 -

Corporal Kielbasa said:
I also wonder how it would be to raise an animal or a human being from birth until adult hood with total sensory deprivation. Nothing more then the persons on mind stimulation. Kinda like Matrix style but without the whole movie theme. If we could see what that brain was doing and what dreams or places the mind was going to. The states of awareness and the persons consciousness. Maybe even get aura photos. The person would be innocent in ways we couldn't possibly find in any other scenarios. Maybe the mind of a child. Or maybe that mind matured on it's own. I wonder what the results of an experiment like that would have. Do think we should do something like that. No not really. I wouldn't want to fuck with someone else's life.


That living thing would not be human, IMO. It would not belong to the species; the body needs the mind and without stimulous, the mind would not develop from birth.


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: mr_kite]
    #6716712 -

That's a good point. There is not a single moment when we come into this world, we grow into it. The nervous system develops out of the fetal mass solely from external stimulation; certain pathways are repeatedly reinforced and become "neural" pathways.

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Icelander]
    #6716977 -

Seeing things as right or wrong, good or bad gives us a digital worldview.

Eliminate that binary tendency and we begin to see in analog, the real world behind the web


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Icelander]
    #6717068 -

I see culture as largely a type of information technology passed down by a group in order to help its members succeed and survive. Hence to me culture is nothing more then a tool. If I find aspects of it useful, I adopt them, if they are not harmful or inaccurate I reject them as maladaptive.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Icelander]
    #6717101 -

I do not think that a human can perceive an objective reality. Whether there "really" is an objective reality is pointless to ponder because it cannot be perceived. Castaneda noted that the way we perceived reality was based on the agreements that we were forced to make...our programming. He also noted that the old sorcerers had limited themselves due to the fact that they had reached another set of agreements among themselves. don Juan noted that his discipline was based in perceiving the nagual...the infinite...the unknown...instead of coming to new subsets of agreement which merely extend subjective reality. Among humans what Castaneda described were common factors in the perception of the nagual due to the common position of the assemblage point that all humans shared. This is a shared point where perception is assembled....NOT an objective reality. Castaneda NEVER implied a knowable objective reality. His view sees reality as a malleable flux which could be manipulated at will coupled with infinite possibilities. don Juan NEVER said that the world was anything but a complete mystery. He described what was really a new type of science...where humans using common techniques could come to common conclusions about perception. Not even the most empirical science can describe reality because people have to interpret and perceive the results. Castaneda described a technology for manipulating the perceptible reality, not a means of perceiving the objective reality.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Icelander]
    #6717295 -

Icelander said:
Seeing Castaned style is viewing things as their true essence. Without our cultural description which is overlaid on that essence. Carlos made this statement. " After years of struggle when I finally learned to "see", I realized that I had been seeing my whole life". So maybe there is an objective reality. But we relate to it by describing it to ourselves; a subjective description; a description that was implanted by our cultural programming from birth. To stop describing things to ourselves, to see things without deciding if we like them or hate them or have any thought about them, might be the way to see the objective Universe.:mushroom2::mushroom2:


this is all I have ever tried to say
I think


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6717329 -

I think you are correct here, but for the sake of argument- based in perceiving the nagual...the infinite...the unknown...instead of coming to new subsets of agreement which merely extend subjective reality. If you are not extending subjective reality then what are you doing?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Icelander]
    #6717402 -

I should have said "instead of coming to new subsets of agreement which merely extend consensual subjective reality". This phrasing more completely expresses my thought. All reality is subjective, but consensual reality is subjective reality based on agreement. The unknown is purely individual. According to Castaneda the only true "semi-objective" factor is the position of the assembly point.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6717428 -

semi-objective?:D


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Icelander]
    #6717601 -

I mean consistent throughout the consensus of humanity...but not objective.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6717658 -

Actually you've thought this out quite well IMO. I have nothing more to say.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Icelander]
    #6717672 -

I have spent a lot of time fried senseless and totally alone...what else was I to do?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Subjective and Objective Castaneda style [Re: Icelander]
    #6717950 -

Icelander said:
I think you are correct here, but for the sake of argument- based in perceiving the nagual...the infinite...the unknown...instead of coming to new subsets of agreement which merely extend subjective reality. If you are not extending subjective reality then what are you doing?


you mean expressing your impressions mixed with your conditioning?
(I was going to say expressing your self, but this may be awkwardly simple)


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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