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InvisibleSwami
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Lynn V. Andrews (female Castaneda)
    #2812533 - 06/21/04 12:59 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Why is this lady never discussed? Andrews has written about a dozen or so quirky books on Native American shamanic power. Her stories have all of the other-worldliness and spooky fun of Castaneda's books.

Is is because she is still alive? Cuz she is a Beverly Hill's rich bitch or because her stories mainly concern female sorcery?


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (06/21/04 04:43 PM)


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2812720 - 06/21/04 01:47 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

who?


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: NariusFractal]
    #2812737 - 06/21/04 01:51 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Because her work sucks. She is just another white person cashing in on "native" culture. Her writing is terrible and not very interesting as well. To call her a female Castaneda is uncalled for...Carlos could write well no matter what the value of the content may or may not have been.


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (06/21/04 02:06 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2812801 - 06/21/04 02:15 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

She is just another white person cashing in on "native" culture.

If you don't like the writing that is one thing, but Andrews has as much or as little right as Castaneda. Carlos was not in any way related to the Yaqui (Doodle) Indians; hell, he wasn't even of Mexican blood, so your argument is entirely inconsistent.

Guess a historian cannot write about Columbus unless he was Portuguese or about Caesar unless he was Roman (according to your incredibly weak logic). This is a cross-cultural world with all people borrowing ideas, food, music, etc; from one another.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2812816 - 06/21/04 02:20 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cuz she is a Beverly Hill's rich bitch





Quote:

She is just another white person cashing in on "native" culture.





Quote:

If you don't like the writing that is one thing, but Andrews has as much or as little right as Castaneda. Carlos was not in any way related to the Yaqui (Doodle) Indians; hell, he wasn't even of Mexican blood, so your argument is entirely inconsistent.






:lol:

When you give people options like that, they should come with a warning like  mate in one


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
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  /l_l\/
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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2812863 - 06/21/04 02:32 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Castaneda was from Peru. The influence that drove Casteneda's work was not, in fact, Mexican, but Peruvian. He had an ongoing dialog with two Peruvian shaman for several years. This was undoubtedly the inspiration for much of his ideas. I have read some of Andrew's work(pushed on me by a friend)from the get go it is a blatantly commercial effort with not even a nod to actual Native American culture. The practice she describes bears little resemblance to shamanism as it is practiced by Native Americans or any other culture for that matter. Read "Lame Deer: Seeker of Visions" (I forget the author at the moment) and contrast what the widely respected Lame Deer had to say with Andrew's words. Casteneda is not so far off. I do, however, recommend many more authentic books over Casteneda's to anyone interested in shamanism. So my logic is not so flawed. In order to avoid writing 50 page responses I too must sadly resort to generalization. Two writers that respectfully borrow from primitive culture while retaining their credibility are anthropologist Michael Harner in his "The Way of the Shaman" and Tom Brown in "The Vision" and "Awakening Spirits".


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (06/21/04 02:50 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2812911 - 06/21/04 02:53 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

The influence that drove Casteneda's work was not, in fact, Mexican, but Peruvian.
No shit, that was my point. Peru is in no way related to Northern Mexico geographically nor culturally. Not one reason in your meandering about about why Wronguy was not stepping on native shamanic toes for being from another culture that he cashed in on. Bzzzzt!

Andrew's work(pushed on me by a friend)from the get go it is a blatantly commercial effort with not even a nod to actual Native American culture
You certainly do not want to bet me on this. There are frequent "nods" to Native Culture. I will wager dinner at the Palms and we will let the other members decide
from the quotes I dig up who is more correct. Bzzzzt!

it is a blatantly commercial effort
(So while you defend capitalism, you despise it at the same time? Do you do nothing, but volunteer work?) Karlos' fiction netted him several million dollars which does NOT indicate a commercial effort. Bzzzzt!

The practice she describes bears little resemblance to shamanism as it is practiced by Native Americans or any other culture for that matter.
Heh! You have studied and know intimately the practices of several hundred tribes or do you lump them all together? Bzzzt!

*off camera*

Smarmy: Bob, tell HooHoo what he has won!

Bob: Well Smarmy, WhoWho has a won a sweat lodge ceremony for two in the vortex capital of the world; beautiful Sedona, Arizona!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (06/21/04 11:38 PM)


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2815300 - 06/21/04 10:44 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Its because its sorcery, and sorcery deviates from the Lord and his power. Don't delve into black magic, because its power is summoned by those farthest from God. The awakening to God's grace has invoked people being skeptical of black magic and they would rather read the bible and find hope in that, then some dark demon who roams the earth, female or not.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: looner2]
    #2815435 - 06/21/04 11:40 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

What if said female is mega-hot? Can we not then make an exception?


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (06/21/04 11:49 PM)


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2815464 - 06/21/04 11:47 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Does her books have illustrations? If not, that is irrelevant. But if it does, then i suggest you treat it like a picture book, but keep your lustful thoughts in check, only look to find pleasure in God's creations.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: looner2]
    #2815486 - 06/21/04 11:51 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

only look to find pleasure in God's creations

That's what I am talking about! Did not God make women yummy for a reason? The "Girls Gone Wild" video series is about the most spiritual work that I have ever seen.  :cool:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2815511 - 06/21/04 11:59 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

That's what I am talking about! Did not God make women yummy for a reason? The "Girls Gone Wild" video series is about the most spiritual work that I have ever seen.




God did make woman yummy for a reason; to test the devotion of males to God, and not the flesh. I also find spiritual training in watching pornography, if my will is strong enough, I do not lust for the women. It is an ongoing battle that I sometimes lose. God might get angry at me for this, but sometimes I don't mind losing.


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2816102 - 06/22/04 04:53 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

holy crap.

n o really.

anyways, thanks for dropping the name, i may or may not pick a book up to read, but its nice to have a mental list of things i might.

peace.


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Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Todcasil]
    #2816721 - 06/22/04 11:54 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

first of all i dont think swami needs to be so hard on hueycohytl (or whatever your mad name is) you asked why no one pays attention to this woman's work and he said because its badly written, and made to profit rather than enlighten. He's obviously read a number of books on the subject so i have no reason to disbelieve his oppinion. I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. And your argument about how he supports capitalism but doesnt like an author claiming to write spiritual books for profit is ridiculous man and you know it. Capitalism may (or may NOT) be a good basis for a society, but its certianly not a good basis for a spiritual treatise.

Anyways hardly matters, if no one reads her books or knows about them its probably because they arent very good, compared to the alternatives out there.

and...


"God did make woman yummy for a reason; to test the devotion of males to God, and not the flesh."

is this guy for real? is it equally sinfull in the eyes of god to admire a sunset, a blossoming flower or any other one of god's magnificent creations? does adoration of Gods creation somehow lead us farther away from God?

And what about Men? are attractive men created to test Women? or are only males supposed to be devoted to god?

and, according to your logic, if everyone was truly devoted to god, as you suppose God wants them to be, than would the human species not have died out long ago? is that God's plan for his human children? for us to become celibate and disapear from the earth?

no no no... this doesnt add up at all! Horses cant talk!

PEACE
:mushroom2:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2816943 - 06/22/04 01:36 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:Capitalism may (or may NOT) be a good basis for a society, but its certianly not a good basis for a spiritual treatise.



Explain how capitalism and spirituality are mutually exclusive.
I'm confused.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2816959 - 06/22/04 01:44 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

its not that complicated, were talking about "I have read some of Andrew's work(pushed on me by a friend)from the get go it is a blatantly commercial effort "

what i meant was a society may function on the sole basis of profiteering, but if a spiritual tradition is based on the same principles, its not a good thing.

Im not going to bother defending that any more... if you dont get it, you dont get it.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Sclorch]
    #2817019 - 06/22/04 02:04 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Explain how capitalism and spirituality are mutually exclusive.

Well, you see it is better to not be self-sufficient so that one may mooch off of society.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2817029 - 06/22/04 02:07 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

but if a spiritual tradition is based on the same principles, its not a good thing.
Yeah, the same with medicine. Fuck those doctors trying to repay their costly university loans. Give me, give me!

Im not going to bother defending that any more... if you dont get it, you dont get it.
(Yeah, Sclorch, it is because you are a spiritual retard. :rolleyes:) Um, maybe because your rationale falls flat?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2817031 - 06/22/04 02:09 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

^^^^ actually that was a very valid point. Another reason that capitalism and spirituality are largely exclusive is that if you devote your life to capitalism, or the pursuit of capital (cash money) than you most likely are not dedicating your life to spiritual pursuits. Indeed most monks are not self suffiecient, they beg for there food, and this is all well and good. At best you might squeeze in church once a week or some prayers on the side, but i do believe that
"it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" -jesus

Dont take that literally, but the point is clear. Pursuit of worldly goods and pursuit of spiritual awakening generally do not jive.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2817082 - 06/22/04 02:29 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Pursuit of worldly goods and pursuit of spiritual awakening generally do not jive

You keep repeating this same thing with no justification. (Repetition only works in politics). There is nothing inherently true in your flat statement.

If I feel closest to God playing concert piano and bring joy to others through my discipline and expression, then I should be monetarily rewarded.

If an architect sees sublime beauty in design and brings that out as a gift to the community, then he should be financially rewarded.

I could give a million examples if I had the time.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2817111 - 06/22/04 02:43 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

but swami, thats not what i said at all. Your saying that someone who loves music or architectural beauty should be rewarded with money and i agree entirely. But those people are devoting their lives to beauty and music, not to money. Theres a big differance between someone who does what they love and happens to get money and someone who does what it takes to get money.

if you read carefully youll notice that what i said was "if you devote your life to capital and the pursuit of money, you are most likely not dedicating your life to spiritual pursuits"

whereas what you are saying is "if you dedicate your life to music or beauty you should be rewarded with money"

you see how thats not quite the same thing?
i mean its simple, if you devote your life to money, your life is devoted to money.

Its not that complicated, if you devote your life to playing hockey, your most likely not dedicating it to coalmining.

If you dedicate your life to astrology, your probably not dedicating it to geometry.

If you dedicate your life to war, your probably not dedicating it to peace.

if you dedicate your life to material gain, your probably not dedicating it to spiritual learning.

and i wasnt calling sclorch a retard, im simply saying that i think spiritual teaching should be based on an honest desire to communicate a truth that you have found enlightening, for the benefit of others, rather than for the sake of making coin.

once again, if you dont get that you dont get it. I understand that some people disagree, and actually think that selling spirituality for the sole purpose of wealth is a good thing, but those people and me have no common ground on which to base a discussion, so i simply said if you dont understand my point i cant make you, if you dont get it you dont get it.

I didnt mean to be demeaning or arrogant when i said that.

PEACE
:mushroom2:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2817155 - 06/22/04 02:57 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Its not that complicated, if you devote your life to playing hockey, your most likely not dedicating it to coalmining.

Puh-lease. Is this the best that you can do? Here let me try a Moonshoeism: If you devote your life to playing hockey, your most likely not dedicating it to your family.

Juxtaposing two occupations is hardly even remotely analagous to comparing an activity and an attitude.

A spiritual attitude can be practiced in everything that you do. It does not require long retreats in far-off lands.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2817179 - 06/22/04 03:03 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Your saying that someone who loves music or architectural beauty should be rewarded with money and i agree entirely. But those people are devoting their lives to beauty and music, not to money.

*Coughs* Bullshit. It is for BOTH. An architect (or any professional) would not voluntarily waste a year of his time not to get rewarded.

And if people want to buy Andrews books, then she deserves a reward as well. Is that difficult? Readers are either receiving valuable information or entertainment or both. With a dozen books, she must be offering something. ALL AUTHORS write to get paid. Hoohoo's judgement on her tells me of Hoohoo, not of Andrews.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2817237 - 06/22/04 03:20 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

sigh. Again, im NOT trying to say that people shouldnt get paid for their work, im simply saying you shouldnt work JUST TO GET PAID, especially if your 'work' involves spiritual teaching, its simply too much of a conflict of interest.

I do admit that my two-career path analogy was weak though. this all started with a discussion of why this woman's book never sold, and someone said it was because the whole thing was written just to profit, and thus it wasnt authentic.

But honestly, in my own life i have found spiritual enlightenment and capitalist pursuits to be somewhat exclusive, and ive found that more and more when i try to plan my future.

Society is telling me that i have to go to get a job, so i can make money, but first i have to go to school so that i can get a GOOD job and make GOOD money, but in order to go to school i need LOTS of money, and that involves loans, and that involves Debt, and then ill need to have a place close to the university, and that means rents to pay, and ill probably need a car, and gas...

and what ends up happening is money enslaves me. I need money to make more money and more money to make more money... and then the true purpose of life, to gain insight and wisdom is lost...


so its tough


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2817276 - 06/22/04 03:35 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

im simply saying you shouldnt work JUST TO GET PAID
Would it be better to starve and not support one's family? "Honey, I know that I am out of work, but I cannot in good conscious take a job merely for a paycheck." All I am hearing is baseless judgement as if people were one-dimensional.

especially if your 'work' involves spiritual teaching, its simply too much of a conflict of interest.
Who determines this? Why should one type of knowledege transfer be different than another? Because you have decided?

this all started with a discussion of why this woman's book never sold,
Her books have been selling quite well.

and someone said it was because the whole thing was written just to profit, and thus it wasnt authentic.
After this same poster admitted Carlos books were lies, but he still recommended them. No hypocracy there.

Let's go to Amazon to see what a reader says:

***** (five stars) As usual, Lynn V. Andrews weaves her magic!, March 6, 2001

Reviewer: A reader from San Diego, CA
From the first book I've read of Lynn V. Andrews works, starting from Woman of Wyrrd and not in order, Medicine Woman, Crystal Woman, Star Woman, Jaguar Woman, and all the others, I find that I could not put any of her books down until I got to absorb every detail and experience. She has brought me enlightenment by awakening my eyes to significant events and similar situations that equate to mine. In this book, this teaches us about our animal spirit, the south, west, east and north wheel where she had described from Star Woman that east represents the rational thinking while the west is the emotional, the south; physical and the north, the spiritual and enlightenment. There is so much to learn from each of her books and this one is no exception. I highly recommend it to anyone looking for the truth within us.


But honestly, in my own life i have found spiritual enlightenment and capitalist pursuits to be somewhat exclusive
So in your daily life you cannot practice, patience, compassion, understanding and being in the moment?

and then the true purpose of life
You admit to not having enough time to devote to spirituality, but you ALREADY have acquired deep wisdom and know the answers? It is hard to follow you, bro.


Edited by Swami (06/25/04 03:12 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2822247 - 06/23/04 10:18 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I was gone on a mini vacation for a few days (fly fishing in the Smoky Mountains) and I did not see how this unfolded until today. So I reply. Point 1: It should be noted that the first line in the Intro to Casteneda's first book says "This book is both fact and allegory." Carlos noted in his books that this tradition was NOT native to Mexico. Carlos was a Peruvian pushing a, most likely, Peruvian line. Point 2: There is nothing wrong with making money off of books on spiritualism as long as the purpose is to not do so by duping the gullible.(just my opinion)I think Carlos was presenting an authentic viewpoint, but later in his career he stooped to blatent commercialism (tensegrity) or so I believe. When dealing with other cultures one should be respectful of their traditions and do a good job representing them. Point 3: I have studied the shamanic traditions of over 30 separate cultures and I can tell you with a little authority that the core of shamanic practice is always the same no matter where in the world it is practiced. This is refered to as core shamanism by anthropologist Mike Harner. Only the myths and small details of ceremony are changed. The drumming, healing methods, and world view are quite similar. I feel that to practice a culture specific type of shamanism would be disrespectful of that culture. The Andrews book I read, while using Lakota Indian imagery, bore more relation to new age spiritualism than shamanism. Using things like meditation cards is not associated with shamanic practice. I think Casteneda had many failings, but it was his books (read in high school) that kindled my interest in shamanism, and that is why I like Casteneda. I was severely let down by the commercial efforts he made at the end of his life.


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (06/23/04 11:07 PM)


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2827811 - 06/25/04 01:32 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I haven't read Andrews because Castaneda was original and I just can't handle copycats.


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...or something







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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: eve69]
    #2828146 - 06/25/04 03:07 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
I haven't read Andrews because Castaneda was original and I just can't handle copycats.




Yeah.... like he wasn't ripping off others.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: eve69]
    #2828167 - 06/25/04 03:13 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

*scratches head* If you have read one autobiography, then you have read them all? Does that even make sense to you?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Swami]
    #2828385 - 06/25/04 04:32 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

During my 20s I reread all of Casteneda's work along with every available biography in my efforts to determine his veracity. I even read the book DeMille wrote to debunk him. Since his death I have read a bit more.


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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2887019 - 07/13/04 07:24 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

And what do you have to say about that Huehuecoyotl? I just now started reading his works, great stuff. Definitely sparked my interest in shamanism.


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Re: Lynne V. Andrews (female Castaneda) [Re: LoneDeranger]
    #2887388 - 07/13/04 09:46 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Ms. Andrews, while Swami might think she is mega-hot, (and she might be I never looked at her picture when I read her book) is a poser, uninformed of Native American Shamanism. Castaneda's early works are good, but beware you are reading an interesting mix of philosophy and fiction. Traditional shamanism is much less complex, but by all means read Castaneda as he gives you much to think about. Demille's book debunking Castaneda needed debunking as well it was so shot full of holes. Also check out this link: http://www.nativeamericanchurch.com/peyote.html for an accurate view of traditional peyote use...it contrasts with Castaneda's experience severely.


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