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Anonymous

A dissertation on the aspects of subjectivity.
    #808542 - 08/10/02 09:54 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

In order to converse intelligently on this subject it is necessary to come to consensus on what philosophy is. Perhaps it would be best to examine the idea that 'philosophy is subjective'. The ideas inside a person's head are subjective; that is to say they belong to that person alone. Yet, when two people agree on a perceived object or event we say that the knowledge of the object or event is 'objective' or 'shared' knowledge. To further our understanding on this let me introduce the terms 'public' and 'private' where public stands for things that are common knowledge between two people and 'private' stands for that which is known by one person alone. Now we can ask the question, "Is philosophy a public enterprise?". In other words can we ask questions about reality that are not scientific but are philosophic knowledge between two persons? Yes, we can.

In order for the philosophic enterprise to stand apart from other types of knowledge we have to ask what constitutes philosophic knowledge. Philosophy as an autonomous branch of knowledge has five conditions that must be met in order for it to be distinguished from other types of knowledge and be useful for the expansion of our knowledge of reality. They are:

1. It must be a type of knowledge.

2. It must be a type of knowledge that can be refined with respect to truth. In other words it must be corrigible.

3. It must be a type of knowledge that can be discussed as a public enterprise.

4. It must be a type of knowledge that has relative autonomy from all other branches of knowledge.

5. It must be a type of knowledge that gives answers to questions about that which is and happens in the world and secondarily questions about how we know, think, or speak about that which is and happens or about what men do and seek.

Any branch of knowledge is has a public character if:

1. The participants are willing and able to answer the same questions.

2. The questions can be approached bit by bit; not being forced to answer all the questions in order to answer just one of them.

3. It is possible to disagree as well as agree about the answers.

4. Disagreements among the participants are adjudicable by reference to standards commonly accepted by participants in the enterprise, and;

5. Cooperation is possible among the participants; if it is possible for a number of them working on the same question to make partial contributions which are cumulative and which add up to a better solution than any one participant proposes.

Some of the questions that are within philosophy's domain are:

What is the nature of being and existence? What are the properties of that which exists? What are the modes of being and types of existence? What constitutes change? What is causation? What are the powers of the human mind? What is the nature and extent of human knowledge? What is material and immaterial? What is the nature of God?

Notice that some of the questions appear to belong to the realm of science. Some of that may be due to misunderstanding the nature of philosophy. Or it may be due to the fact that we are more accustomed to thinking within the purview of science. Or even because some of the questions have a 'scientific' answer as well.

For example, consider the nature of the universe with respect to determinacy/indeterminacy. Science within its restricted paradigm might tell us that the universe is determinate. In other words everything that is ever done or said or happens is predetermined by the state of matter that has bearing on those events (chaos theory excepted). Philosophy has much to say on such matters because philosophy is able to make observations about reality just as science is able to make observations about reality. General observations, the kind philosophy makes, are just as valid as the kind of specific observations that science makes when it investigates things that are specifically inside its purview.

Remember this: Every time science gives us an answer it is speaking from within its restricted philosophic paradigm. Which is fine until the question has answers that reside in both domains. At that point each discipline has a bearing on the other and neither can give a sufficient answer without the aid of the other.

Also philosophy has a decided advantage over science in that it is able to define itself. I hope this is not too overly broad but whenever the question is asked, "What is the nature of..." the answer comes from philosophy, not science. Whenever science attempts to define itself is it doing philosophical thinking. That is why some scientists do such a poor job at it. It's not their field.


Cheers,


Edited by Anonymous (08/11/02 06:48 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: I need fresh meat.(public life in a private forum) [Re: ]
    #808565 - 08/10/02 10:12 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

What's with your long posts lately?
I hope you know there are only five or six people whom both frequent this forum and will read and understand this post. I should make all my posts that long, that way no one will bother reading them... and I won't get any flak. hehe
___________________________________________________________
Anyways...
I think a lot of the problems associated with this forum are due to the perception that philosophy is private and not shared. Very nice post, I agree (as much as the doctrine of heteroabsolutism allows- ).

one thing:
In other words everything that is ever done or said or happens is predetermined by the state of matter that has bearing on those events (chaos theory excepted).

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If meant 'accepted' instead of 'excepted', the problem is solved. If not, then I'd like to know just which 'chaos theory' you're referring to.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: I need fresh meat.(public life in a private forum) [Re: Sclorch]
    #808585 - 08/10/02 10:25 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I sometimes post the long ones because I think the board needs a little more philosophy and less crop circle jerks (deliberate pun about the circles not the people who post them). Read: I'm trying to spruce up the place.

They are/were created in times of boredom to practice/hone my writing skills.

And I post them you for few that bother to read them, like you.

_________________________________________________

I was alluding to the fact that chaos theory does seem to fly in the face of determinism as some seem to interpret it.

If we could clear up the confusion about subjectivity it would help everyone one to be more objective, I hope, that is.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: I need fresh meat.(public life in a private forum) [Re: ]
    #808615 - 08/10/02 10:46 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I was alluding to the fact that chaos theory does seem to fly in the face of determinism as some seem to interpret it.

Ooooo... I'd like you to expand on this if you don't mind. I've only read/heard that chaos theory is in harmony with determinism.


If we could clear up the confusion about subjectivity it would help everyone one to be more objective, I hope, that is.

I think you HAVE cleared it up. But since only 5 or 6 of us saps will understand it (I think we already did, but you wrote it down), it won't do this forum much good. Few posters here have a good enough memory and mental environment to be able to take something from a post and apply it to the rest... unless it's "tripz is goood" or "cops suck" or "alienz our reel". Maybe I'm being too cynical... maybe not. Time will tell.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: I need fresh meat.(public life in a private forum) [Re: Sclorch]
    #808811 - 08/10/02 12:27 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Have you heard of Kellert's work, In the Wake of Chaos?

Basically he says, and I agree, that the introduction of quantum theory and chaos theory leave only a weak determinism in their wake. Consider strong determinism and then try to posit chaos theory. It doesn't work. That is why I included the phrase, "chaos theory excepted" in my post.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: I need fresh meat.(public life in a private forum) [Re: ]
    #808844 - 08/10/02 12:53 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Have you heard of Kellert's work, In the Wake of Chaos?

Nope. The name Kellert rings a bell, but I can't put my finger on it.
I'll add it to the list. *scribble scribble*

Consider strong determinism and then try to posit chaos theory. It doesn't work.
I always thought that chaos theory was the predecessor to string theory... at least, I have a few books that say such things. That being the case, string theory isn't exactly weak determinism. I'll have to read Kellert's book.

Now... where're my notes on Correspondence theory?.... *shuffle shuffle*


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: I need fresh meat.(public life in a private forum) [Re: Sclorch]
    #809067 - 08/10/02 03:39 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Honestly Sclorch, sometimes you make me giggle like a schoolgirl.

shuffle shuffle

Go to this link I looked up to see a quick review of Kellert's work. It's pretty good stuff I think.

Cheers,


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: I need fresh meat.(public life in a private forum) [Re: ]
    #809377 - 08/10/02 06:19 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Remember this: Every time science gives us an answer it is speaking from within its restricted philosophic paradigm. Which is fine until the question has answers that reside in both domains. At that point each discipline has a bearing on the other and neither can give a sufficient answer without the aid of the other.

I dont necessarily agree with this...
Science and philosophy are two completely different entities in my mind.
The former provides answers and factual information about things for which answers and factual information can be given. The latter provides theories for things which the realm of science fails to explain.
The two do not rely on each other... They are completely independent, in fact. Scientists to a good job finding their facts with the scientific method, and philosophers to a good job theorizing about things that the scientific method just cannot explain.

At least that's how it works in my brain


--------------------
Namaste.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: I need fresh meat.(public life in a private forum) [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #809637 - 08/10/02 08:19 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I dont necessarily agree with this...
Science and philosophy are two completely different entities in my mind.


Well, I guess that's part of your own personal choice to intentionally ignore the globally-accepted truth.
Do you know what the highest degree one can achieve in Science (or any other field) is?

We call it a PhD.
abbr. Latin
Philosophiae Doctor (Doctor of Philosophy).
n : an American doctorate usually based on at least 3 years graduate study and a dissertation; the highest degree awarded by a graduate school [syn: PhD]

Aristotle, a philosopher, is responsible for splitting up the school of PHILOSOPHY into the various schools of thought (i.e. Science, Math, Geography, etc...).


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: I need fresh meat.(public life in a private forum) [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #810335 - 08/11/02 08:42 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It is possible that you are not sufficiently aware of the discipline of philosophy and what it entails.

The thread I created about quantum mechanics is a good example of an area where science and philosophy converge.

I can write a bit more about it if needed.

Cheers,


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: I need fresh meat.(public life in a private forum) [Re: ]
    #810485 - 08/11/02 10:11 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

hey, i know this is off subject...but the topic says, "nude women(clowns welcome).... and i'm a professional clown. a hippy clown. that's my living...so i'm welcome right?


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!


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Anonymous

Re: Nude Women (Clowns Welcome) [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #810752 - 08/11/02 12:26 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, your presence here is quite germane.

I changed the title to see how many more hits it would get. It received 17 more hits in a matter of hours. Not bad. My hypothesis was correct.

What color is your wig?

Cheers,


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Nude Women (Clowns Welcome) [Re: ]
    #810767 - 08/11/02 12:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

What exactly is your hypothesis? That there are a lot of clowns in this forum?


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Anonymous

Re: Nude Women (Clowns Welcome) [Re: infidelGOD]
    #811120 - 08/11/02 04:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

LOL! No, my hypothesis was that a thread entitled, "I need fresh meat." is less attractive than a forum entitled, "Nude Women."

Gosh, that's a weird idea, isn't it?

Cheers,


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Nude Women (Clowns Welcome) [Re: ]
    #811165 - 08/11/02 04:37 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Just so people don't feel too deceived....













--------------------
Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: Nude Women (Clowns Welcome) [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #811190 - 08/11/02 04:58 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Great, now my message will get lost for sure.

It's bad enough that the dopes come in here looking for nekkid clown women and scroll right past my excellent dissertation.

Now YOU'VE got 'em looking at the real thing.

Nevermind though, those are artful pictures. I expecially like the first one. Black and white is a great medium for conveying the contrast in light.

Cheers,


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OfflineCalen
journeyman
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 87
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Nude Women (Clowns Welcome) [Re: ]
    #886273 - 09/16/02 06:42 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Blithering, who's the biggest wind-bag in here? :laugh:  From the "truth" thread to naked weemun, I'm a glazed donut.  When I came into the discussion previously, I asked a direct question about your brain's processing style vs the others, like mine.  A phenomenological approach was my take on Descartes.

Here's my rambling of the day..  Here, you're providing at best, guidelines to discuss it (Truths).  In actuality, there are no guidelines like yours (or by academia) in the real world, free-for-all (like here).

I find Subjectivity vs Objectivity is about trust and familiarity based on one's intellectual capacities, individuation. and life experiences.  For instance, one person can trust more of his/her subjectivity (psychic intuition) than the objective domain based on knowing his/her strengths.  That person's private-knowledge-to-shared-knowledge will be dependent on audiences of 'familiar' intelligences. An audience of skeptics maybe not be the most objective types to discuss it even though their interest is the object reality. 

The line between S vs O will blur unless there was equal representation between the intuitives and non-ones in the discussion in that above example. 

The blurring could be,also, based on individuation (ie: brain thinking) and life experiences.  A person, who's mainly left-brain dominant, writes right-handed, a logical thinker, and is pragmatist will think that way mentally and through his/her 5 senses.  A right-brained person (very uncommon) is left-handed, a patterned thinker, and a spiritualist will view sensory perceptions beyond the localized domains

Who's more S or O than the other?

If Freud was alive today, he'd say (in my own wording):  "There's no such thing as S or O, just your ego, and subconscious talking."


Or an initiated Buddhist would say (my own not-so-buddhist wording): "Without being a S or O, I strive to be the sublime state of Equanimity."

  Edi for clarity


Edited by Calen (09/16/02 07:31 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Nude Women (Clowns Welcome) [Re: Calen]
    #887412 - 09/17/02 07:17 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You are clever.

Be on guard against too much cleverness.

Good post.

Let me say this for now.

If a person wishes to think that idealism is the cat sass no one or no thing can ever dissuade them from thinking so. This is why philosophy does not improve as fast as it could.

Are you reading more but enjoying it less?

Switch to chat! The lowfat discussion for all non-thinkers alike!

(Shameless plug)

Forgive me,


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OfflineCalen
journeyman
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 87
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Nude Women (Clowns Welcome) [Re: ]
    #896391 - 09/21/02 12:24 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Clever?  Maybe.  hehe I'm designed a certain way.  Just like you.  TLike tat person over there and over here.  I have a good understanding, for myself, on how we relate to each other on the most fundamental levels that we, sometimes, are not even aware of.

Idealism is necessary to reach up to the star of inspiration.  Let philosophy provide us with the tools to realize our dreams.

Are you reading more but enjoying it less?

Switch to chat! The lowfat discussion for all non-thinkers alike!


Great.  Now, I have a visual of a pool of [low-fat] yogurt containing [non-thinkers] amoebas??!!

:crazy:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 13,008
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 14 hours, 31 minutes
Re: A dissertation on the aspects of subjectivity. [Re: ]
    #896429 - 09/21/02 12:44 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You must have enjoyed those philosophical discussions on subjectivity-objectivity between Woody Allen and Diane Keaton in 'Love and Death' as much as I did.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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