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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: WScott]
    #6484344 -

WScottsdale said:
What would happen to one that has his or her eyes closed while attempting to reach a meditative state?


Why don't you try it and find out? Having the eyes open is done for two reasons (at least for me). First, having light stimulate the brain helps to keep you aware, alert, and awake. Second, meditation and mindfulness is not about focusing solely on one thing, such as the breath or some object, to the exclusion of the other senses. It's about simply being aware of all of your six senses (touch, hearing, smell, taste, sight, and mental movements (like thought, etc)).

Ultimately, shinkantaza means "just sitting". Just sitting is bare awareness, without anything added to it. No reactions, no judgments, no opinions, just awareness of all that is happening.

To close your eyes would be to exclude one of your senses from your awareness and thus would not be a complete experience. That's not to say that if you were blind you wouldn't be practicing complete awareness. Not being able to see is different than choosing not to see.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6484358 -

Having a straight back is very useful as it helps to keep you alert. If you are slouching or slumped over, it's far easier to drift off into your thoughts or imaginings or even doze off.

There's no need to be militaristic and have some ultra-straight back, but sitting up as straight as possible, even if it is a little uncomfortable, can be very beneficial.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: dblaney]
    #6484367 -

I agree that meditation is an amazing thing. I use meditation to calm myself and be more centered. It is definitely a way to be awakened. Although, I am not sure it is the only way. Definitely not actually. There are many paths to becoming awakened. It doesn't even have to be meditation it can be the most mundane aspect of daily activity. If it is going to happen it will, and it will just click, if not, that's how it was supposed to go.

I wonder why there are such guidelines in meditation and in yoga. What good do guidelines place on an invididual? To me trying to follow the steps of meditation or yoga is taking away from the practice. I do what feels natural, and it allows me to be more open with myself and free to be. I think everyone has their own methods to get there. They should try things like this on their own. It is hard enough to find the truth with someone elses help. I say, do it on your own with your own ideas, maybe taking others help into consideration. We should follow our deepest inner self/unity for guidance.


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"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6484698 -

redgreenvines said:
the main thing with the philosophies of the various schools of enlightenment like these is to keep shifting what seems superior:

it's a game.

soon the student may begin to catch on that they are all the same, and that his self image had been erroneously based upon comparing his renunciate status against that of others.

a huge laugh can be had when this cloud of "comparative" self importance vanishes.


There is no game of superior or inferior, as it depends upon the individual, what is the superior or inferior path for them. Comparison is useful, because it tells you how one method differs from another, and what are there main point of application. The various schools have various methods, and differences in how and to what end they apply those methods. They are by no means, all the same as far as practical application is concerned.

The fact is, that this kind of meditation is very simple, gradual, and the foundation of all meditative disciplines, regardless of tradition.


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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: dblaney]
    #6484711 -

dblaney said:
WScottsdale said:
What would happen to one that has his or her eyes closed while attempting to reach a meditative state?


Why don't you try it and find out? Having the eyes open is done for two reasons (at least for me). First, having light stimulate the brain helps to keep you aware, alert, and awake. Second, meditation and mindfulness is not about focusing solely on one thing, such as the breath or some object, to the exclusion of the other senses. It's about simply being aware of all of your six senses (touch, hearing, smell, taste, sight, and mental movements (like thought, etc)).

Ultimately, shinkantaza means "just sitting". Just sitting is bare awareness, without anything added to it. No reactions, no judgments, no opinions, just awareness of all that is happening.

To close your eyes would be to exclude one of your senses from your awareness and thus would not be a complete experience. That's not to say that if you were blind you wouldn't be practicing complete awareness. Not being able to see is different than choosing not to see.


Shinkantaza is an excellent practice from the non-gradual soto system. This is an excellent way to practice, but its also, very difficult for most beginners. This is like going straight into dissolution, non-meditation. Not even Suzuki teaches this first. He always taught zazen with the breath before Shinkantaza.

A good book on Zazen is : "Zen Mind Beginners Mind" - Shunryu Suzuki
A good book on Shinkantaza practice is called: "Not Always So" - Shunryu Suzuki


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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6484715 -

CerebralFlower said:
i have a question about the back. i am tall and lanky, and find myself going more to a natural straigthness as opposed to as straight as possible, which i can only sustain for a matter of seconds before i begin to get lower... is my back muscle weak or shouold we not try to be "as straight as possible"
thanks


Natural straightness is fine. Whats important is that you check that your lower back is somewhat straight, then the rest of the back will fall in line.


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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: Noveltyhead]
    #6484720 -

Noveltyhead said:
I don't really have a complete understanding of eyes closed vs. open but one thing I would say is its easier to become sleepy and too relaxed, too loose, with eyes closed


Yes, this is precisely the reason why most teach eyes open.


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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: MrBuzin]
    #6484726 -

Syk0s3s said:
amazing, nicely writtin. this helps me out alot. i just made a thread and this clears up alot. but your description of meditation, you make it sound to good to be true, can it really help my life out??

also, i have a hard time with posture, i naturally can't situp right.. am i screwed?


If you check and pull in your lower back, the rest of your spine will straighten. If you find that a little difficult, don't force anything, just relax and do your best with posture. The posture of your mind counts more, but the straighter the back, the smoother the energy flow through the meridians in your body, giving you increased alertness as well as relaxation. You can try purchasing a meditation belt, or a stool that will help keep your back straight also.


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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: TacticalBongRip]
    #6484735 -

TacticalBongRip said:
Great post Sinbad. Your post brought up a curiosity in my mind, and that is how often do you meditate? Do you make a schedule of it (i.e. - everyday at 8pm I will meditate for an hour) or do you just do it when you feel to and for however long you feel to? Or maybe something else, who knows.


I meditate on a laziness schedule. I used to have some routine, but that went down the drain with exams i had recently. Id say a routine at the begiining can be beneficial, but not if you are forcing yourself, that is not so good.

If i don't feel like meditating, for whatever reason then usually, i just try and relax, and be aware with whatever it is i am doing, and try to notice what is the cause of my resistance toward formal practice that day. In fact, any activity can be practice, because you are always breathing in any activity. :grin:

Something i read recently might be interesting. I was reading that some psychologists suggested that anything done for 22 days consecutively, becomes a psychological habit in the human mind. So, if you can be inspired enough to practice alot (this is why it is important to read spiritual books), doing the magic 22 might be for you. :wink:


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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: Sinbad]
    #6485060 -

Sinbad said:
Syk0s3s said:
amazing, nicely writtin. this helps me out alot. i just made a thread and this clears up alot. but your description of meditation, you make it sound to good to be true, can it really help my life out??

also, i have a hard time with posture, i naturally can't situp right.. am i screwed?


If you check and pull in your lower back, the rest of your spine will straighten. If you find that a little difficult, don't force anything, just relax and do your best with posture. The posture of your mind counts more, but the straighter the back, the smoother the energy flow through the meridians in your body, giving you increased alertness as well as relaxation. You can try purchasing a meditation belt, or a stool that will help keep your back straight also.


i can do this. but i can't put my head up straight. it's impossible.

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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: MrBuzin]
    #6485144 -

Can you pull your chin in slightly?


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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: Sinbad]
    #6490124 -

The dahli lama says three times a day is very good 


:thirdeyeani:  :yoda: :laugh:


--------------------
I'm just passing thru u

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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: dream_alchemy]
    #6491693 -

Yes, but personally, excluding retreats, i hardly have ever done three times a day.:D


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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: Sinbad]
    #6492861 -

I love this post and have absolute faith in the wisdom which pervades it.  :yinyang: 

Sinbad, I feel very strongly the knowledge in this thread, your creation, that the selfless act of sharing the ancient wisdom of meditation in writing is itself an act of meditation: or rather, it is one venue by which you are able to en-Joy the unfoldment of reality. :wink:

For me, the de-objectification of Terence McKenna's "Hyper-Objectified Linguistic Object" has been the highest goal of meditation: a miraculous process by which subjective reality collapses on itself in order to unfold anew. :heart:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: Lion]
    #6498871 -

Sinbad, I have a question.

In practicing meditation as you have described it, using mantram as the object, I have been unable to let my breath flow freely: sitting up straight with my legs in the half-lotus impinges my breath, so that I feel an incredible tension building up beneath my ribcage. The only way for me to alleviate it is so slouch completely, including a slight dip in the neck, so that my back becomes less like an S and more like a C held up by a smaller backwards 'c' - the curving base of my vertebrae. This allows for a comfortable and rewarding meditation, but gradually my thoughts always turn to whether it is damaging to my back to sit in this way for too long.

Part of it is probably diet: I generally eat roughly 1.5 times what I actually need. However, when I cut back to a spartan diet (losing 20 lbs. over the course of several months) I still found an easy flow of breath wanting, whether I inhaled and exhaled through my nostrils only, mouth only, or any combination of the two.

It is worth noting that I have lower back scoliosis which causes a slight hitch to the left in my back starting at around my lower abs and gradually curving as my spine reaches my pelvis. I have been able to limber up my back a great deal by mindfully practicing the basic asanas in Be Here Now, but the problem remains, exacerbated also perhaps by the fact that I play a lot of basketball.

This may be a query better left to a specialist on the back, but as I grow more and more aware of my bodily capacities through yoga, I trust less and less the Western scientific approach to the spine. Any advice you could give me on the relationship of breathing to spine in meditation would be much appreciated. namaste


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: Lion]
    #6499077 -

I'm no spinal surgeon, and i'm not sure how serious you condition is. As far as posture is concerned, you can buy a meditation belt or you can lean up against a wall as a last resort to keep your back straight and your solar plexus a little more relaxed. Be careful that the wall sint too cold tho, can cause problems in your energy. That way you wont be worried about your posture either.

When doing mantra, you don't worry about keeping your breath natural. But when using breath as object you relax inwardly and not worry, the breath resumes itself naturally. It requires no intervention to control, or make it natural, its just left alone and you don't worry how it is. Slowly it will resume its natural rhythm. Mantra is very good for healing and working with vibration. But keeping still and silent is important part of calm practice. You can find calm state with mantra as object, of course, but sometimes personally i feel for me, its good to keep still and silent for a while. But always, we must work with our situation, and do what we can.

Breath is linked to the vital energy and the emotions. When the emotions are stirred up, such as anger etc, you can notice how the breath becomes more coarse, etc. The more relaxed ones breathing is, the more relaxed one is in body and mind.

Be very careful when doing asanas with your spine. Id consult a specialist about it because in the end western medicine is the only thing that will help if u break it. :wink:

Namaste :japsmile:


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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: Lion]
    #6499704 -

a good back is like a good car.

even without a good car you will get where you need to go.

breath meditation can be done in any position. IMO it should be done in every position.

what you lack mostly if you cannot perform recognizeable asanas is the resonance of the buddha rupa form. this is the subtle aspect of seeming to be an emanation of the buddha to others passing by, including to our own wandering minds.

sure this is an important part that people can play (being a reminder of the middle way and the 8 fold path), and some, sadly only play this part (for others) never much benefitting from the symbolic shape their posture takes.

the work of meditation for the meditator personally is towards relaxation and insight. the liberating lesson is priceless, no price at all, even the straight back is not required. Nothing need be added or removed to see the buddha nature.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6499720 -

For beginning to develop calm and single pointed mind, i think straight back is pretty important although not entirely essential. If anyone is having major problems with sitting straight, don't worry, like red was getting at, posture of mind is more important. breath meditation can be done in any position, for sure. But for optimum clarity and flow of energy through the body, a straight, relaxed position is recommended.

P.S. We are mainly discussing formal sitting practice in this thread


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Edited by Sinbad (01/26/07 05:51 PM)

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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: Sinbad]
    #6504186 -

You may like to have a look at

http://www.enabling.org/ia/vipassana/Archive/G/Gunaratana/MindfulnessIPE/index.html#Contents

I have found this most useful over the years, though you may find otherwise...

Edited by Cymbaline (01/28/07 06:51 AM)

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Re: Simple Meditation Method [Re: Cymbaline]
    #6504209 -

Thats a very good book, thanks.

Also, if anyone else has any other meditation book recommendations. Here is the place to post em. :smile:


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