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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
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problem with meditation.
    #1831913 - 08/20/03 01:58 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

now I know most of it is in my head, but man it is really hard for me to sit still and really clear my mind. I've been trying to meditate for the past 4 months and the longest I have ever cleared my mind totally (while sober mind you :smile:) was for 15 minutes.  I was just wondering if I'm just being super-slow or if this process needs more time (as in years). I can though hold an image in my head really well, but as far as clearing thoughts, I suck.   


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: kaiowas]
    #1831922 - 08/20/03 02:01 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Don't worry about clearing your head of thoughts completely.. that is mastery of meditation. If you can hold one thought, and focus on it completely, and nothing else, for a full minute, then you are good.

Meditation is nothing more than practicing to focus your mind. Remember that. The more you do it, generally, the easier and more clearly you will be able to focus/concentrate. That's the general idea.. you can take it to whatever level you want after that.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
DXM perhaps? [Re: kaiowas]
    #1832187 - 08/20/03 03:47 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Do the research:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/dxm.shtml/

And if you think it?ll help - Get the right shit:


You?d be suprised at how some of them other ?active ingredients? will
fuck you up (not that the ?inactive ingrediants? are all that good for ya
either...but why compound the problem any more then you have to)

And as always (with anything) be careful  :cool:   


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
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Re: DXM perhaps? [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #1832215 - 08/20/03 04:10 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I would recommend not listening to him. ^^^

if meditation is just "focusing", shouldn't anything that requires intense focus have the same effect?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Re: DXM perhaps? [Re: Malachi]
    #1832251 - 08/20/03 04:35 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

lol.  Have no need for dissaccociates.  Just natural shit. :smile: 

btw thanks for the advice, it was obvious that I needed it


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


Edited by kaiowas (08/20/03 04:36 AM)


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: problem with meditation. [Re: kaiowas]
    #1832295 - 08/20/03 04:56 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I can certainly see where you're commin from with this whole 'keeping it real' attitude. All I'm saying is that if you've got a clogged drain, a little draino or a plunger or something might just do the trick. I'll leave it at that.


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #1832309 - 08/20/03 05:06 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

no, it's not about "keeping it real", I'm sure kaiowas would be up for some toking or shroom tripping whilst meditating, it about DXM being nasty nasty shit. really, it's bad. not as bad as meth, but worse than coke.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: Malachi]
    #1832506 - 08/20/03 08:33 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> I've been trying to meditate for the past 4 months and the longest I have ever cleared my mind totally (while sober mind you ) was for 15 minutes.

Sounds to me like you are doing, not trying. Don't worry, just keep doing what you are doing. When you forget to try and do what you are doing, what you are doing will simply happen.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinelucid
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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: Seuss]
    #1832645 - 08/20/03 10:04 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

um, there's different types/stages/techniques of meditation.
Developing concentration/focus is one aspect of meditation, but
certainly not what meditation is about. Mindfulness is what
meditation is truely about - i.e. watching your thoughts or
your enviornment with detachment - i.e. non-judging, non-clinging
awareness. I wrote a splurg on meditation a while ago on the
S&P forum to try and explain it to someone who was starting out
and had requested info. Here it is, hope it helps...

-------------------------------------------------
Meditation means diff things to diff people. My mom considers prayer (the act of repeating your desires over and over again, and then repenting for your God awful sins when you're prayers are not answered ;-) as meditation. Some traditions have more active mediation styles where they visual and focus on specific things. The kind of meditation that I find most useful and that is becomming increasing popular (and researched to have powerful theraputic value), is mindfulness mediation. Zen and Buddhist meditations tend to be of this type.

Esentially the point of this type of meditation is to cultivate awareness and disidentify with your thoughts. Awareness can be both external and internal. We are all familiar to some extent to the trance like existance we lead (where we are consumed and lost in our thought processes). By intentionally practicing to be aware we not only become increasing aware of how often we're unaware but we also start liberating ourselves slowly from the trance.

Basically, we're so lost in our own thought process (and our thoughts tend to affect/create our perception of the world, our beliefs and our reality), that we become consumed by them. We fail to truely "experience" and see things for what they are, without labeling, judging, or forming some thought about them. Constantly thinking can be a great burden and torment. It can keep us from truely enjoying things. People with OCD know this. When u start to meditiate, i.e. "watch" your thought process and come to view them as "just thoughts" u start to realize that thoughts are just a flow... a process, things that come and go... they are a part of you but they are NOT "essentially" you (this is what people mean by "disidentification" with thought).
It's like having a screaming 2 year next to u all the time. You are aware of the child but since you're seperate from him/her, u can continue functioning in life and learn to accept/manage/tolerate the little being and even be amused and love the little creature :-)

You can also cultivate awareness by focusing on external objects. One convenient way of doing this is to focus on the breath. Note that in all mindfulness meditation that you are never "trying" to change anything. This is the most important aspect of mediation. You simply accept what is. When focusing on the breath, do not try to change it in any way, do not try to slow it down, speed it up or affect it in any way... simply "follow" it - i.e. "observe" it, "watch" it. Similarly when focusing internally on your thoughts, do not try to change them in any way, do not judge them as good or bad. If u feel awful (like I have felt for most of the last 3 months after a very bad shroom trip), simply accept the awful feeling, just watch it, observe what it truely feels like, is it always there ? does it get worse/better ? but do not try to change it in any way (this is very difficult if u feel particularly awful as I often do - but this is the key). By practicing this we learn to accept. This has extreemly powerful transformative power.

At times, while meditating and becomming intensely present in external awareness (watching a beautiful lake or mountain), sometimes all thoughts may fade away. This can be an intensly blissful feeling. A feeling of absolute peace, arising from complete surrender to the present moment - essentially u feel at peace because u completely accept what is and don't even feel the need to change it in any way, u feel ultimately satisfied, fullfilled and liberated.
Often people refer to the state of no-thought as "no-mind". Sometimes, even people who have never meditated, can achieve this state when they are "blown away", so to speak, by something. Essentially, they have completely given themselves up to this moment.

To constantly think can inflict much internal grief. Imagine if u were constantly thinking while having sex... it would likely ruin the experience. If u kept thinking "darn this will be over soon", "hmmm... how can I make this last" or "how can I make this even better, cause it's just never good enough", u wouldn't be able to truely experience the feeling.

The important thing to remember is that mediation is NOT about work. You don't have to WORK at meditating. Also, there is no right/wrong thinking in meditation and ironically there is no GOAL (ironic because u will feel better if u just allow things to be, but if u make it your GOAL to feel better u most likely won't). Some people find it helpful to concentrate on breathing, certain postures etc while meditating, but it's extreemly important to realize that this isn't required and is certainly not the point of meditation.

I mediate while walking and used to meditate while biking, and I often don't focus on my breath (although it can be helpful at times and I do if I feel like it).

You will likely realize while meditating that we have a lot of internal struggle. We're constantly trying to change the way we feel and be something/somewhere that we're not. This causes undue angst. It's the recognition and observation of this stuggle that meditation brings to light. We've been conditioned to be this way. We feel it's our "right" to feel better (and better and better, constantly ;-) by observing this tendency and how it feeds our thought patterns the mind automatically learns to see the futility of this mechanism. Then slowly these thoughts get dis-empowered.

When a person can abide in a state of complete acceptance and surrender to what is, they are labled "enlightened"...and that's when they generally start charging for it :-D (just kidding)

A trap that's easy to fall into while meditating, and being "on the path" so to speak, is the "Oh I'm sooo Spiritual that I'm indistructable" idea. It's all too easy to think that one is beyond emotions, feelings and suffering... "after all I've been meditating for 10 years and I'm Spritual Damn it !"
But to mediate is to accept and face what is, anything else is denial. I could sit down and say "NO I FEEL GREAT !" over and over and try desperately to belive this... and yes I have tried this (when one is desperate enough one will try anything), but inevitably I've noticed that very quickly this method can lead to even greater angst. Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps I just need to keep saying positive things and "I'll be cured from all pain... forever !", I'm willing to be open to that possibility - that meditation might not be the way. In order to seek a truthful path one must first consider that everything one "knows" might be wrong. But something about meditation seems right to me, and it gave me great peace in the past (but perhaps I'm just stubborn and wrong and it's all a terrible tragedy). And so... I face my current situation... I'm a "Spiritual Depressive" or more accurately I'm a person who could be considered "Spiritual" who is currently extreemly Depressed, Anxious and Traumatised by a very bad shroom trip. This... is what is...this is my starting point, in this present moment...
-------------------------------------------------



--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: kaiowas]
    #1832685 - 08/20/03 10:24 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I am sure you didn't totally clear your thoughts for 15 minutes, that is a very long time. Meditation takes devotion and lots of practice. Keep up the good work! I use a mind machine, it really helps.


Edited by Earth_Droid (08/20/03 06:01 PM)


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1832713 - 08/20/03 10:32 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Earth_Droid said:
I use a mind machine, it really helps. 



Is that the one with the "Enlightenment or your mindlessness back"
guarantee ? :grin:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: DXM perhaps? [Re: Malachi]
    #1832745 - 08/20/03 10:47 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
I would recommend not listening to him. ^^^

if meditation is just "focusing", shouldn't anything that requires intense focus have the same effect?




Yes, extreme focus of snything is meditation.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1832782 - 08/20/03 11:08 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I use a mind machine, it really helps.



How does that work, and where did you get the machine?


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Offlinelucid
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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1832842 - 08/20/03 11:35 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Probably a brain wave sync machine...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: kaiowas]
    #1832991 - 08/20/03 12:35 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It is a good point made by Lucid, that meditation has different meanings. In classical Yoga expounded by Patanjali, for example, there are 8 stages of Yoga. When stage 6 - Dharana (Concentration) becomes effortless, then stage 7 - Dhyana (Meditation) has been entered into. The fruit of Meditation ('the cessation of the modification of mind-stuff,' i.e., thoughts) is stage 8 - Samadhi, which is sometimes defined as Contemplation.

Meditation in Biblical traditions usually means a discursive thinking about Scriptural meanings, whereas Contemplation refers to a thought-free, yet highly energetic subjective state that is variously described primarily by the Catholic and Orthodox mystical traditions.

There is always content in (Eastern) Meditation or in (Western) Contemplation (Contemplative Prayer), but it is usually simplified to an image (Yantra) or sound[s] (Mantra). The Transcendental state occurs while these simplified mental constructs are present, but they recede into insignificance in the Presence of the Transcendental. The Orthodox Christian tradition of Hesychasm, for example, uses the Jesus Prayer which is first said with the lips, then just mentally, and finally it descends to 'the Heart' where it takes on a life of its own - sometimes becoming integrated with the breath and heart beat so that these physical processes become the very prayer. Then one can 'pray [contemplate] without ceasing,' as Paul put it in Thessalonians.

A 'blank' state of mind is a diminution of consciousness, and not a desirable state in any contemplative tradition that I know of. It is not the Uncreated Energy of Orthodoxy, nor the Presence of God, nor the Clear Light or Void in Buddhism, or Atman in Hindu thought. So your expectations may need revision to avoid dissapointment or misunderstanding of the goal.

Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1833016 - 08/20/03 12:49 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Brilliant post Markos ! :smile:
Esp the fact about meditation in respect to religions.
I know that in the Muslim Mystic traditions (Sufis, fakirs etc)
meditation often involves "Zikr" (which I think literally translates
to "Mention") of God. This is like a Mantra involving repetition
of one of the 99 names of God - each of which describes a certain
"attribute" of God (e.g. "The Compassionate" etc).
Perhaps ultimately, most of these techniques are indirect
ways of eventually quieting the mind.
I try to practice simple Mindfulness meditation instead of using
any kind of Mantra's - but that's just me.
I've had very short moments where my mind became extreemly still
and quiet, and to be honest I got quite scared by the shift in
perception. I have trouble letting go... but at times when I have
been able to, without falling pray to fear, I have entered
extreemly blissful and quite frankly euphoric states which
I have never experienced on drugs or on any other occassion.
Strange that inspite of these experiences, I still doubt myself
and meditation :frown: Dis-trusting myself is deeply rooted in my
upbringing :frown: and contantly reinforced by my family might I add...
I've always been known as the defiant one in the family. I should
"listen to the elders" more... in which case I figured the
devil can't be all that wrong since he's been around for a while :smirk:



--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1833051 - 08/20/03 12:58 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

hiya markos...
don't forget protestant mystics such as jakob boehme...
& some of the quakers as well...
~
for a classic non-denominational examination of meditaion, check out lawrence le shan's _how to meditate_
~
& as to becoming distracted whilst meditating: many zen masters have suggested acknowledging the discursive thought, and returning to your zazen practice (counting breaths, koan work, mantra (ok, more tibetan :wink: ...), whatever...) and "just sitting"...
~
some zen practices involve counting breaths up to ten, or up to four... le shan suggested just counting up to one --- not so easy to lose count, hehheh...
~
~
so the cop was quite surprised when the suspect, hearing him shout "assume the position", immediately sat in a lotus posture...
heh...
~
~
~
sometimes we need to be reminded that the "object" of meditation is not to "attain enlightenment" but to realize that enlightenment is our natural state of being...
~
~
~
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: gnrm23]
    #1833072 - 08/20/03 01:04 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"sometimes we need to be reminded that the "object" of meditation is not to "attain enlightenment" but to realize that enlightenment is our natural state of being..."
so true, and this is a very difficult thing to realize
for someone with a deep seated guilty complex due to
a religious upbringing...sinning bastard that I am :smirk:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinewhole9
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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: lucid]
    #1833519 - 08/20/03 03:01 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Whoa good info lucid thx :laugh:


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: problem with meditation. [Re: lucid]
    #1833523 - 08/20/03 03:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

(from the lutheran liturgy: a brief order for public confession):
"oh most heavenly father, i confess that i am by nature sinful and unclean, and have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed; not only by outward transgressions but also by secret thoughts and desires which i cannot fully understand but which are all known unto thee..."
~
tell me about it, friend...
~
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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