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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #6363670 -

Oh, and read the stanza in the initial post again and again and again, and maybe again, then one more time for good luck :wink:

Your answers lie within.

Perhaps the Prajnaparamita sutra would be good as well, here is the  link.

:hippie:

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #6363762 -

The Buddha taught about suffering first, instead of teachings about some metaphysical jargon, or God worship because its something we can all relate to. All beings seek happiness, and do not wish to suffer. This is a very primal desire and if you look deep enough, you can see how it drives our every action.

When the Buddha talked about the symptoms of suffering, he did not mean just the gross levels of physical and mental pain and discomfort (the suffering of suffering), from the smallest itch, to the greatest agony. He went deeper to point out that not only is there the gross level, but beings caught in time and duality also experience the suffering of change, which has a secret name called "happiness". Because of the temporary nature of pleasurable experiences, when they come to pass with time, they will inevitably transform into a cause of suffering for us. So like a moth to the flame, we seek out sustainable pleasure but due to the temporary nature of samsaric experience, we ultimately only end up getting burned continually in the flame of suffering.

Seeing clearly how suffering is, he then went on to point out the causes of suffering, namely the three root afflictions of ignorance, craving and hatred, and how actions driven by these afflictions create the causes and conditions for our suffering. After which he expounded the noble eight fold path to liberation.


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Edited by Sinbad (12/13/06 07:43 AM)

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: Sinbad]
    #6364164 -

Thanks for the discussion.

I am very aware of the basic ideas of buddhism, and even follow them myself, I have read books on the topic, and think and learn about it quite often, to give an idea of how much I know.

I understand that a transcending of suffering would be something which feels very right. But it seems it can only be right within a dualistic point of view. It seems that upon transcending suffering, you would realise there was never any need to transcend it in the first place. It seems that I'm missing something here.

In any case, I am starting more to understand some important ideas about loss of attachments and the state it would lead to, I believe. I have touched on this state on drugs before and such, and have been aware of these ideas for quite a while, and actively engage in them during my daily life, but I am just looking for a better understanding. I'm glad to be learning so much recently. I feel my understanding as taking some large strides. It's interesting from an egocentric point of view.

I hope this post did not come off as self indulgent, I tried my best not to. I just thought they were interesting developments in my life. I feel self indulgent writing this now.  :heart:

Edited by michael_lifshitz (12/12/06 10:41 PM)

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: michael_lifshitz]
    #6364579 -

Sounds like we caught the same wave as of late in our lives. Something feels rightly wrong and wrongly right about it. I've been riding it out to see where it takes me.

:heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #6364822 -

I had been avoiding this
I am adding brief postits to the lines
Quoiyaien said:
In response to Chih-tao's question: "if all things are impermanent, who is it that is the enjoyer of the supreme bliss of Nirvana?"
Note please that he question is WHO .
Hui-neng replied:

The supreme mahaparinirvana maha - great, pari - supreme, nirvana - cessation
Is perfect, permanent, calm, and illuminating
Ignorant people miscall it death,
While heretics hold that it is annihilation.
Those who belong to the shravaka vehicle or the pratyeka-buddha vehicle
Regard it as non-action
All these are mere intellectual speculation,
And form the basis of the sixty-two fallacious views. You need to be immersed in the state to comment on it (sounds familiar to psychedelic users?)
Since they are mere fictitious names invented for the occasion
They have nothing to do with absolute truth.
Only those of supereminent mind
Can understand thoroughly what nirvana is, and take up the attitude of neither attachment nor indifference toward it
I think the use of the word attitude here is probably the most crucial single term of any language in this whole piece
They know that five skhandhas this is the five senses really
And the so-called ego arising from the union of these skhandhas, union could be like crosspoint and "arising" means arising from interpreting
Together with all external objects and forms
And the various phenomena of sound and voice
Are equally unreal. like a dream or an illusion. Unreal means temporary, temporal, artifactual but not false, false need interpretation and misinterpretation.
They make no discrimination between a sage and an ordinary man.
Nor do they have any arbitrary concept of nirvana. Not interpreting.
They are above affirmation and negation, and they break the barrier of the past, the present, and the future. seeing gestalts, memory, ideation.
They use their sense organs, when occasion requires,
But the concept of using does not arise. no separation of mind and body
They may particularize on all sorts of things,
But the concept of particularization does not arise. the attitude here is open
Even during the cataclysmic fire at the end of a kalpa, when ocean beds are burned dry,
Or during the blowing of the catastrophic wind, when one mountain topples on another,
The real and everlasting bliss of perfect rest and cessation of changes
Of nirvana remains in the same state and changes not. as clear as this seems it might not be clear enough
Here I am trying to describe to you something that is ineffable
So that you may get rid of your fallacious views.
But do not interpret my words literally sorry just did it
You may perhaps learn a wee bit of the meaning of nirvana!




just in case you thought i wasn't paying attention
in precis I would say:
an open attitude with cessation of interpreting is who.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6365024 -

BTW red, ive only recently heeded the advice you gave a few years back to study Abhidharma.

Thank you for that suggestion, as ive found it to be most invaluable to my understanding of the the Buddhadharma. :heart: :thumbup:


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Edited by Sinbad (12/13/06 06:44 AM)

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: Sinbad]
    #6365055 -

it's great information if you can use it positively


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6365081 -

I dont see how it can't be used positively.  :heart:


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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: michael_lifshitz]
    #6365082 -

michael_lifshitz said:
It just seems like we attributing importance to the idea of a lack of suffering, when in reality I don't see anything wrong with suffering in the first place.

If we are attached to the idea that suffering is bad, then how can we be enlightened? And if we are not attached to the idea that suffering is bad, then why would we care to change it?


There is nothing wrong with suffering nor is it bad. In fact great good may come of it. Yet for me it is not the preferred state. That's just my personal prejudice.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: Icelander]
    #6365100 -

The basic problem with suffering, is that it begets further suffering. The only reason anyone inflicts suffering upon another, is that they are suffering themselves. Causing suffering for ourselves and others is a contrary path of action to having a wise, peacful and compassionate mind. This is why we must find a path to liberate ourselves from its causes.


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Edited by Sinbad (12/13/06 09:38 AM)

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6365722 -

redgreenvines said:
They know that five skhandhas this is the five senses really




From my understanding, the five skhandhas are:
1. Form
2. Feeling(physical and mental)
3. Perception
4. Will
5. Consciousness

In buddhism, there are six commonly referred to sense bases, as well as their associated organs.  Together they form a set called the 12 ayatanas divided into externals and internals, one of each for the six senses: Smell, taste, touch, hearing, sight, and thought. 

:hippie:

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: Sinbad]
    #6365830 -

The problem is, is that it is a natural to feel it by anyone who cares about something. Where would we be, if people stopped caring about anything just to avoid it? I think we should be careful of denying it. A compassionate mind state understands the suffering of others because it has the ability to "fellow feel". Because it moves to understand, it does not judge it as being something wrong or bad, but a part of the what is.

This is what Micheal was saying about the enlightened mind state being in acceptance of it as a natural part of the reality experienced in human flesh.

We are all attached to bodies here while alive and suffering will come of that from time to time. Humans will suffer hunger, thirst, needs to be touched, understood, accepted, heard etc. How can anyone deny, the vehicle they express themselves through on this plane of existence, and not be in a state of delusion?

Even Buddha had a desire to express himself through his vehicle and to be heard evidenced by the fact that he did express himself with his voice to others.

To deny others any understanding of human suffering in any of its forms, is to be in delusional state, not enlightened one as it is often misunderstood to be.

What is so enlightened about the human being that can say, "I feel nothing of you, for you, with you because what you are feeling is something wrong to feel because it stems from an illusion"?

I use to think it was, and now, I am not so sure its the place to be.

How grand to be above the illusion and to not recognize or validate it.

What good is it for the one suffering from believing they are a failure in life, and you're telling them, they are spirit in truth and all is one and equal and that there is nothing to fail at because there was never anything one needed to achieve in the first place?

What is that suppose to mean to someone who tries and tries and can't get anything to go the way they want it too? That "enlightened" statement will sound horribly cold, distant if not fall on deaf ears.

I look at that now and think to myself, what is so enlightened about a person who can not touch another with warmth, and let them know, they are there with them to help see them through.

The light is penetrating, and creates warmth and helps us all to see our way through the dark. What sort of enlightened person, has not the ability to.

Does the light say, "Give up your futile efforts that were created  vain and the feeling of being a failure will go away", when in a compassionate mind, to help end the others suffering? Or does the light say, "What is your goal you believe you are failing at and how can I help you to achieve it?"

If you were the one suffering from feeling like a failure at things, which feels warmer, which feels like it comes closer to penetrating into your soul and which feels like it will help to see you through a dark time, by just being there with you?

I think because the light has the ability to ease human sufferings, doesn't necessarily mean, that it sees them as being wrong or something it has to ease, it's just what it naturally does for anyone who turns to it and or turns it on from within. Because of this, it is never in a state of denial to suffering itself.

Though the light may not have the direct ability to see the shadows, it still can and does have the direct ability to see what is making them.

If you were the sun "light", you will never be able to see the shadow the earth makes on the moon. Without a mirror, you would have no way to know such a thing as a shadow even exists. Regardless, you can see the earth in front of it as plain as day.

Does the sun ever deny the earths existence which it can see in plain view, or its right to be, or it's place in the movements of the cosmos, just to get rid of the temporary and passing shadows on the moon?

If the sun chose to believe the earth wasn't there, would the shadow on the moon magically disappear? It doesn't work that way in physicality.

That is no different from someone believing they are an enlightened source, who calls things of matter "illusions" in a vain attempt to make the shadows go away. They both are really there.

The earth truly is a thing of matter to the moon and it knows it when its blocking the light from the sun to reach it.

How can that of matter to the moon, be denied of actually existing to the moon and be of truth to it?

Telling people their times in the dark and the things of matter blocking the light from reaching them do not really exist but in their minds, is a lie.

Why do some people on "the path" become so afraid of acknowledging things of matter to others as truly existing here?

I don't think Buddha did us any favors by teaching us to treat all things that matter to us and others, and that are also a cause of darkness and suffering "sometimes", things of illusion. Doing that just inhibits our ability to realize the suffering one is in during a dark time, and that is no path to compassion or truth on this material plane of existence anyway.

When the light of consciousness transcends the physical limitations and density of matter, and can see beyond it and out into the darkness, it is VERY EASY to the deny the things of matter as being anything really there, yet they are and I think many forget that and in so doing, stop caring about what they have come to believe, isn't really there and stop acknowledging and recognizing, what is really there for others when they are suffering in its shadows.

Transcending the limitations and density of matter in the mind, is not doing it in the physical and if you are currently experiencing ability to use any of your 5 physical senses and are able to feel sensory input from your nerves, these things of matter to us and others are a very real part of our experience.

There is no escaping the physical until we depart from our connection to the sensory receptors we are attached to with these bodies. 

Why act like or believe like, we are not here in the physical, nor are any others, when we all are, even though the mind can be other places beyond this plane at the same time?

And you know who they are because they are the ones insensitive to their own feelings and that of others.

Its okay to cause harm to themselves and others, because they don't feel a thing, and they can believe neither do you, because they were lead to believe that none of this is real. Matter effects matter and people in bodies of matter can and do effect other bodies of matter.

That can be a great thing sometimes and a bad thing sometimes, and either way, IT IS, so why deny it?

I am just expressing current views, thoughts and considerations on this in general. None of this is directed at you Sinbad, nor am I saying that anything, in the above is sound or right anymore then it is unsound and wrong. It's somehow both to me right now and I am just getting a feel for it.

:heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6365939 -

Generally, if someone has a wound, they go to a doctor to get it treated. It is true that the pain from the wound is useful, because it is useful in letting us know that something is wrong and we need medicine. The Dharma is like medicine. It offers not only a detailed description of the illness, but the antidotes and means through which we can apply the antidotes to overcome our problems. So then we can be of more benefit to ourselves and others.

It is true to say that there is something good about suffering, and it is this. Because it is all pervasive, it can be a constant source from which we can cultivate the compassion and wisdom needed,so not only can we cure our own sufferings, but we can be of service to all others by providing the medicines needed to cure there's also. Without others, there is no path to enlightenment, this is why it is said in Buddhism that we are to hold all sentient beings as very dear to us, and even if they harm us, we can recognize that actually they are providing us with the means to cultivate patience, loving kindness, compassion and all positive qualities.

Buddhism is not about denying or avoiding anything, its about recognizing things as they are, and dealing with the root causes of our suffering through cultivating the necessary qualities to not only solve our own problems, but to be of service to all beings who are in the same boat. The whole point is that the Buddha was there for beings intimately, that is what compassion is, the willingness to take on the suffering of others. If you read about the famous bodhisattva ideal, you would understand this point. In fact there is a famous Mahayana practice called ton glen, that is specific for cultivating the warmth of compassion in this way. In fact, the whole Buddhist path is in reality, predicated on the basis of loving kindness and compassion. The good thing about the path is that it constantly produces living examples of this ideal in the form of wise and compassionate teachers.

You can talk about the "light" and the "darkness" in relation to Buddhism, but the truth is that real wisdom and compassion totally transcend these dualities. Going too much on the love and light trips is denial of the basic reality of life, and life isn't bad at all considering the possibilities and potentials we have as human beings. The Buddha didn't speak of our situation as all darkness and gloom at all like you are making out, this is just a misunderstanding. :heart:


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Edited by Sinbad (12/14/06 01:20 PM)

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: Sinbad]
    #6366001 -

That was a nice read Sinbad! :smile: Thats why I said, that my ponderings were not directed at you. Sometimes, you see people talking about "illusion" and its okay to deny what isn't really there, then,as it must not be because whats in the mind is all illusion to them.  Some also associate that thinking with how they interpreted Buddhist texts. And of course, to see suffering as being bad is to be in a state of duality as Micheal pointed out so, there has to be something more to it that has good and purpose as well.

That's what I have been wanting to see and appreciate again better myself.

I like how you interpreted the texts you've read. Thank you for that.

:heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #6366911 -

Quoiyaien said:
redgreenvines said:
They know that five skhandhas this is the five senses really




From my understanding, the five skhandhas are:
1. Form
2. Feeling(physical and mental)
3. Perception
4. Will
5. Consciousness

In buddhism, there are six commonly referred to sense bases, as well as their associated organs.  Together they form a set called the 12 ayatanas divided into externals and internals, one of each for the six senses: Smell, taste, touch, hearing, sight, and thought. 

:hippie:


you are right
I am not sure why I have it remembered that way.

Form translates best for me as sensing the physiucal world.

Feeling(physical and mental) in buddhism is always either pleasure pain or neutral -> it relates to the measure of sense, too little to care, enought to satisfy, or too much to bear.

Perception is the associative process.

Will may translate as interest or direction.

Consciousness may translate as mental activity in gestalt.

I apologize for being glib and forgetting. these skandhas work as a fine stack


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6367424 -

Isnt breathing fun?!  :laugh: :laugh:

:hippie:

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #6368778 -

yup

blowing the nose in a nice napkin is fun too
(I might be on the way to a hangover... I know I never ought to mix drinks)


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6369381 -

redgreenvines said:
yup

blowing the nose in a nice napkin is fun too
(I might be on the way to a hangover... I know I never ought to mix drinks)


:lol:

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #6371934 -

I think all of this means to just be present, and to not worry about inevitable things such as life and death. Nirvana can and will only ever be now.  What a great stanza!  It realy got me thinking...

:heart:

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Re: Hui-neng's stanza on nirvana and deathlessness [Re: Ambrosia]
    #6372672 -

Indeed! Seeking for Nirvana sometime in the future, one never discovers. Discovering Nirvana within Samsara, in the present moment, we discover how it is. :heart:


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