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Lately it has been seeming more and more that the idea of looking for enlightenment is rediculous.

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This is because everything is already enlightened

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It seems that losing everything that defines you as you, all attachments, would lead to nothing more worthwhile than keeping them all.

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This state of peace and calm, that would be nirvana, would be useless, as there would be no one in nirvana to enjoy it.

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and instead submitting to a passive observation of isness, which already exists, like a stone.

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Where could I read more about what exactly nirvana or enlightenment is, from a zen point of view, or any.

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It seems like enlightened individuals would have no reason to help anyone or anything like that.

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dblaney said:

Compassion. When you realize that you don't have anything called a 'self', then you see yourself as everything. If you see someone suffering, then that suffering is taken on as your own, and so you would do everything possible to help. When you realize that sentient beings suffer because they think they have a self, then you do everything you can to help dispel this confusion.

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which is something that an enlightened conciousness would not posess

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I could be quite wrong, but I don't see how an unnattached individual, who is fine with the isness as it is, could want or care in any way about the suffering of others.

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who is fine with the isness as it is

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michael_lifshitz said:

It seems like that would be an attachment to seeing others not suffer, which is something that an enlightened conciousness would not posess. I could be quite wrong, but I don't see how an unnattached individual, who is fine with the isness as it is, could want or care in any way about the suffering of others. It seems to me to be an inherent contradiction.

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In thinking of Nirvana, it is very easy to slip into nihilism; the "nothing exists, therefore nothing matters" viewpoint.  I do not feel qualified to truly answer this question for you, as it may only increase your doubt and confusion.

Simply look.  The answer presents itself not in words or thoughts, but in the immediate presencing of experience. 

Peace

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I would just like to get a better feel for it. Lately it has been seeming more and more that the idea of looking for enlightenment is ridiculous. This is because everything is already enlightened, a perfect expression of is, or whatever you want to call it. Reality. It seems that losing everything that defines you as you, all attachments, would lead to nothing more worthwhile than keeping them all. This state of peace and calm, that would be nirvana, would be useless, as there would be no one in nirvana to enjoy it. The concept of enjoyment or anything positive is contradictory to nirvana. I don't see the inherent goodness of neutrality over positive and negative. I see them as equal. But it seems crazy to me to be on a search, as an ego, for nirvana, considering all it is is giving up everything that defines me, and instead submitting to a passive observation of isness, which already exists, like a stone.

I don't understand the important difference between a stone and an enlightened individual. I don't see how anything positive could come from nirvana.

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I enjoyed that.

That's what I had been trying to get out in some recent posts (about non suffering leading to a form of suffering in itself after a while)or "like being as good as dead to the physical reality before you die in the physical" What good is that is right? You said it all MUCH better then I was getting it out. 

The part I bolded nailed how I am feeling about it these days. Thanks for giving it words.

michael_lifshitz said:

Where could I read more about what exactly nirvana or enlightenment is, from a zen point of view, or any. How about the suttra of complete enlightenment?

I would just like to get a better feel for it. Lately it has been seeming more and more that the idea of looking for enlightenment is rediculous. This is because everything is already enlightened, a perfect expression of is, or whatever you want to call it. Reality. It seems that losing everything that defines you as you, all attachments, would lead to nothing more worthwhile than keeping them all. This state of peace and calm, that would be nirvana, would be useless, as there would be no one in nirvana to enjoy it. The concept of enjoyment or anything positive is contradictory to nirvana. I don't see the inherent goodness of neutrality over positive and negative. I see them as equal. But it seems crazy to me to be on a search, as an ego, for nirvana, considering all it is is giving up everything that defines me, and instead submitting to a passive observation of isness, which already exists, like a stone.

I don't understand the important difference between a stone and an enlightened individual. I don't see how anything positive could come from nirvana.

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When one is no longer suffering, and sees clearly how is suffering, tis causes and how living beings are subject to this, how would it be possible for compassion not to arise? Nirvana is anything but a passive state, it is the realization of our full potential as living beings. To free ourselves from the bondage of suffering is to commit ourselves to freeing all beings from that same bondage. Striving to attain this state, for the benefit of one and all, is the only form of longing that does not result in the arising of affliction.

The state of nirvana results from the cessation of the root afflictions ignorance, craving and hatred, which results in the transformation of our five aggregates (skhandas) of form, sensation, ideation, mental factors and consciousness into there pure states, free from the obscurations that prevent the arising of natural wisdom.

Nirvana does not mean there is only stillness or no activity. Meditation is not used to eliminate thought in favor of some still and serene state where nothing manifests, like a stone. Thoughts are the natural clarity of the mind and meditation is mainly used as a method to pacify and uproot the afflictions that obscure our natural potential for wisdom and compassion. There are many sutra's and tantras that explain how Buddhas have no limit to how they can manifest there enlightened activity.

Its very important to know when reading about Buddhism that it is called the middle way for a reason. That reason is that it avoids the extreme view of nihilism ,eternalism, both and neither. When i have more time ill post some links to some texts that speak of such things in ways that surpass anything i can say here.

Namaste

michael_lifshitz said:

It just seems like we attributing importance to the idea of a lack of suffering, when in reality I don't see anything wrong with suffering in the first place.

If we are attached to the idea that suffering is bad, then how can we be enlightened? And if we are not attached to the idea that suffering is bad, then why would we care to change it?

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Clouds appear free of care
and carefree drift away
But the carefree mind cannot be "found"--
To find it, first stop looking around


Peace