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OfflineShroominSpradl
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Registered: 11/16/01
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non-believers and ego loss
    #626175 - 05/10/02 10:09 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

How can you be a non-believer after something like severe ego loss from a trip? I'm not saying i believe in god per se... but what about the oneness thats experienced?


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All posts are merely fictional stories that I dreamt. Who woulda thought!

"Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle drugs."


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Offlinehongomon
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: ShroominSpradl]
    #626225 - 05/10/02 11:46 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

That's a good question. I wonder how many pantheists the sacred mushroom has created?

hongomon


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: hongomon]
    #626591 - 05/11/02 09:24 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It's called suspension of judgement and belief.
I used to trip and believe whatever I thought was real... most of it turned out NOT to be the true the next day (you know that happens to you too). So, when I joined back up with the collective, I started asking questions that I knew I didn't know the answer to... god didn't answer. That isn't the only reason. Hope (real hope), free will, true individuality, evolution... these are the main reasons for my rejection of any "god". I don't have a use for god... and if god did exist, he/she/it (the god I would want) wouldn't care one way or the other if I even recognize her/him/it.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineCatalysis
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Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: ShroominSpradl]
    #626625 - 05/11/02 10:14 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think that most "skeptics" on this board believe that ego-loss is possible. What they have a problem with, are the wild assumptions that are made about the cause and/or nature of ego-loss. I hope i understood the question correctly.


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:egyptian:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Catalysis]
    #626669 - 05/11/02 11:04 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think that most "skeptics" on this board believe that ego-loss is possible.
Indeed it is...

What they have a problem with, are the wild assumptions that are made about the cause and/or nature of ego-loss.
*ding ding ding*
We have a Winner!!!


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinehongomon
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Registered: 04/14/02
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Sclorch]
    #626691 - 05/11/02 11:25 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Sclorch: "And if god did exist, he/she/it (the god I would want) wouldn't care one way or the other if I even recognize her/him/it."

Sclorch, I completely agree. I also doubt there is a "sentient" god. I'm reading a book about Spinoza, a 16th-century Jewish heretic. (Spinoza and Other Heretics, by Yirmihahu Yovel.) Spinoza proposed the idea that "God" is basically a symbol man has created.

The author writes that, according to Spinoza's philosophy of immanence, "God himself is identical with the totality of nature, and God's decrees are written not in the Bible but in the laws of nature and reason." Later he writes, "Nature and God were one, and the knowledge of nature was therefore the knowledge of God." Dig.

Spinoza's story is interesting. He was one of the "Marranos," the Spanish Jews forced to convert to Christianity during the Inquisition. A good many of these forced Christians continued to practice Judaism in secret, as best they could. The result was a neither-here-nor-there feeling, the environment from which Spinoza and others could transcend the doctrines of both faiths.

hongomon


Edited by hongomon (05/11/02 11:27 AM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Sclorch]
    #626711 - 05/11/02 11:55 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

SInce the universe is supposedly the product of what could be considered a single particle, it's possible that the entire universe is in a state of quantum entanglement.

Every part of the universe would be in effect "connected" and "as one".

Could this be God?



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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Sclorch]
    #626760 - 05/11/02 12:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

these are the main reasons for my rejection of any "god". I don't have a use for god... and if god did exist, he/she/it (the god I would want) wouldn't care one way or the other if I even recognize her/him/it.

Then this is how it will be.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: ShroominSpradl]
    #626925 - 05/11/02 03:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Psilocybin replaces serotonin as a neurotransmitter. Small amounts give visual and auditory distortions; larger amounts bring on time dilation and hallucinations; very heavy doses bring on complete neuronal disruption, to the point where you are unable to process any thoughts whatsoever; i.e. ego loss. With no thoughts (shutdown) there is no "you". Please explain how making your brain unable to function normally relates to believing in God. I fail to see the linkage.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinezepphead
journeyman

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 78
Loc: fort worth, tx
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Swami]
    #626976 - 05/11/02 05:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

when the brain shutsdown its chemical/biological make-up no longer controls our thoughts, perception, sense. if you beleive in spirituality you might say that now our spirit/soul has taken over these controls. without the brain our body doesn't perceive our world. perhaps while your spirit/divine body is in control you are able to experience a more divine reality. could this be heaven/nirvana?


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anybody seen the bridge?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: zepphead]
    #626988 - 05/11/02 05:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

So if I spill coke inside my computer and short out its CPU and memory, it will experience God?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJPAtanat
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Registered: 04/17/02
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #627004 - 05/11/02 06:19 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It sounds like by "quantum entanglement," you mean relativity, and the law of impermanence or change.

"Every part of the universe would be in effect 'connected' and 'as one'."

I cannot understand how anyone can fail to see that all parts of the universe are connected and dependant on each other. Scientists probably understand this best of all. But I think the spiritual sense of oneness is a little different. I think it has to more to do with a "unity of consciousness," if that makes any sense. Understanding the nature of consciousness probably means that consciousness becomes a single and focused thing, instead of our normal way of perception which has constant reference points and mental rambling, which obscures what is true. blahbhlabhla.. whjatever.....


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Offlinehongomon
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Registered: 04/14/02
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Swami]
    #627204 - 05/11/02 11:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Swami:
[With no thoughts (shutdown) there is no "you".]

First of all, I disagree with your definition of ego loss. It does not mean total mental shutdown. Thought is still possible.

Second, Swami, have you ever eaten mushrooms?

Finally, how is soda in a computer analogous to mushrooms in a body?

hongomon


Edited by hongomon (05/11/02 11:32 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: hongomon]
    #627218 - 05/12/02 12:00 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I disagree with your definition of ego loss.
Disagree away. The greater the amount of psilocybin in the brain, the more serotonin is replaced and the greater the disturbance to neuronal functioning; hence the confusion, inability to regulate heat and cold, to access memories, to discern what is "real", to make judgements; i.e. thinking decreases with increased dosage.

Second, Swami, have you ever eaten mushrooms?
Been tripping probably since before you were born. (That's a yes!)

Finally, how is soda in a computer analogous to mushrooms in a body?
I guess this is really a tough analogy. Both disrupt the normal electro-chemical pathways through the introduction of an outside agent. Apparently to some, disruption = sense of the cosmic.




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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (05/12/02 12:06 AM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Swami]
    #627701 - 05/12/02 12:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Whenever our minds are 'disrupted' there is an opportunity for a 'psychedelic' experience. People who have been seriously injured or poisoned or near death have experienced similar thought patterns as those on psychedelic drugs. So being on shrooms is kind of analogous to soda in a computer.

But what's more interesting is the commonality of experience in all these events. There seems to be a 'default' thought pattern that our brains revert to when things aren't 'normal'. I can't prove that these thought patterns represent a deeper truth or whatever but I can't deny the sheer power of the experience.

Disrupted activity in the brain doesn't necessarily mean that what we experience isn't 'truth'. or that it is 'truth'. All I know is that it feels more REAL than anything my sober, conscousness has ever expereinced.

sorry about my rambling i'm stoned.


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Registered: 11/24/01
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: infidelGOD]
    #627924 - 05/12/02 04:38 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

When the ego is lost, all thoughts are transformed into awareness. We fear that losing our thoughts means losing our Self... but we are not made of thought, but Spirit. When all thoughts are lost, Spirit remains Aware.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: infidelGOD]
    #628052 - 05/12/02 06:44 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Disrupted activity in the brain doesn't necessarily mean that what we experience isn't 'truth'. or that it is 'truth'.
That is the only important question about psychedelics. Does it just scramble our brains our actually put us in touch with a hidden part of ourselves?

All I know is that it feels more REAL than anything my sober, conscousness has ever expereinced.
Guess I have yet to go deep enough to feel anything more real than normal consciousness. OTOH I know of many folks, on acid at least, that took regular heroic dosages and just got fried. LSD certainly did not enhance their quality of life nor make it more spiritual. Reading of the Level 5 mushroom dosages here seems to be about the same. Some experienced bliss and some a sheer hell. That tends to make me believe that it is all mind stuff and no more.



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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (05/13/02 03:49 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Swami]
    #628076 - 05/12/02 07:02 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Does it just scramble our brains our actually put us in touch with a hidden part of ourselves?
I think it does a little bit of both...


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Offlinezepphead
journeyman

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 78
Loc: fort worth, tx
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Anonymous]
    #628079 - 05/12/02 07:04 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

amen...


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------------------------
anybody seen the bridge?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Swami]
    #628131 - 05/12/02 07:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

LSD certainly did not enhance their quality of life nor make it more spiritual.

The use of psychedelics CAN improve your life and CAN make you more spiritual. Of course it all depends on the person.. If you go into it with a closed mind, there is no way you'll come away with a positive experience. Taking "regular heroic dosages" doesn't help either...

When I go into the psychedelic experience. I don't need to verify the 'truth' of the experience because it is the truth at the time. The moment when the truth is revealed is self-contained. It doesn't need to be compared to sober consciousness. It doesn't need to be verified in terms of objective reality. It is simply a moment of truth.

Even if it is just "mind stuff"....






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