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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: infidelGOD]
    #628547 - 05/13/02 01:54 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I don't need to verify the 'truth' of the experience because it is the truth at the time.
Whatever that means.

And if the truth at the time tells you to slit your wrists...? (This is not made up! Read some reports.)

Was OJ experiencing the truth at the time when he killed his ex-wife?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Swami]
    #628642 - 05/13/02 04:08 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Psilocybin replaces serotonin as a neurotransmitter. Small amounts give visual and auditory distortions; larger amounts bring on time dilation and hallucinations; very heavy doses bring on complete neuronal disruption, to the point where you are unable to process any thoughts whatsoever; i.e. ego loss.

Goddamn, Swami, that's the best explanation I've ever heard about what mushrooms do to your brain. Especially the part about "complete neuronal disruption".

The second best explanation I've ever heard of is McKenna's theory that mushrooms are an alien spore-like intelligence that traveled a zillion years through space in order to establish a symbiotic relationship with the human race.

You two should write a book together.

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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Nomad]
    #628648 - 05/13/02 04:19 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

{Pynchon becomes paranoid that he has failed to detect above-posters possible sarcasm, deletes post, and flees screaming into the night}

Edited by Pynchon (05/13/02 06:13 AM)

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Offline_JJ_
PsychedelicRevolutionary
Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 369
Loc: NSW, Australia
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Swami]
    #628724 - 05/13/02 05:44 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Re: Swami
Psilocybin replaces serotonin as a neurotransmitter. Small amounts give visual and auditory distortions; larger amounts bring on time dilation and hallucinations; very heavy doses bring on complete neuronal disruption, to the point where you are unable to process any thoughts whatsoever; i.e. ego loss. With no thoughts (shutdown) there is no "you". Please explain how making your brain unable to function normally relates to believing in God. I fail to see the linkage.


I somewhat disagree.. read this: http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v07n1/07110bag.html. What that report claims is that psilocybin suppresses semantic pathways in your brain. I.e. the most central thinking processes - you're normal state of awareness, your reactions, things like that.. and thereby expanding your conciousness by allowing you to access parts of your brain that are usually clouded out by your semantic thought patterns.
This would explain why on higher and higher doses you find it harder and harder to reason with yourself as you are unable to direct your mind as easily. It also explains how you are able to see the bigger picture while shrooming - you can access a greater portion of your brain with less effort. You are able to come to conclusions based on many different facts as they are all apparent at once. Or something

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: _JJ_]
    #628844 - 05/13/02 07:47 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

(From the link)
Semantic neural networks
The researchers interpret their findings using a model which states that the brain contains semantic neural networks which can become activated by semantic information. The spread of this activation through the networks determines the amount of semantic priming that occurs in the word-recognition task. Activation spreads further and faster in thought-disordered schizophrenics and psilocybin users than in normal volunteers. One explanation for this unusual amount of activation is decreased efficiency in the cortex where semantic information is processed (Servan-Schreiber et al 1990, Cohen and Servan-Schreiber 1992, 1993). There is evidence that this inefficient processing is related to the decreased dopaminergic modulation. In support of this theory, the researchers have found that L-dopa, a precursor to dopamine, reduces the spread of activation and therefore reduces indirect semantic priming (Kischka et al 1995). In the context of this theory, psilocybin (which acts on the serotonin system) can be seen as increasing activation of semantic networks. Essentially, dopamine seems to have a focusing effect on activation of semantic networks while psilocybin has a defocusing effect.


This doesn't seem any different than what Swami said.

and thereby expanding your conciousness by allowing you to access parts of your brain that are usually clouded out by your semantic thought patterns.

...and this is not neural disruption, because???

It also explains how you are able to see the bigger picture while shrooming - you can access a greater portion of your brain with less effort. You are able to come to conclusions based on many different facts as they are all apparent at once.

I don't know about the "bigger picture"... maybe we can see more facets of the information that we currently have (mindset at time of tripping), but there is no single "bigger picture". As far as accessing a "greater portion of the brain"... that isn't accurate. We merely access information that we don't USUALLY access (or look at this information in a different light). I definitely agree that tripping increases the ability to look at things differently... but that's probably because our receptors are being hit in an abnormal pattern, triggering a change in our neural pathways.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Sclorch]
    #628950 - 05/13/02 09:37 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I can see the similarity between them, as well, and personally I'm persuaded by both. Where Swami prefers the physiological explanation, JJ is focusing on the psychological side.

Swami: "...Hence the confusion, inability to regulate heat and cold, to access memories, to discern what is "real", to make judgements; i.e. thinking decreases with increased dosage."

I have no problem with anything before the "i.e.," but what comes after definitely does not describe my experience with mushrooms. ( I can only speak of my own experience, and even then I sometimes question my authority.)

Sometimes, on shrooms, my thoughts are going a thousand mph! And constantly branching into fractal sub-thoughts. One thought creates two parallels, each of these spawns a pair of afterthoughts, and so on. On higher doses I can see the pattern of the thoughts, like a spiral tie-dye, on the backs of my eyelids. Thinking, however rambled and confused, is anything but decreased.

I'm only speaking of my own experience with these things, it could be completely different for everyone. The reason mushrooms have a spiritual signifance for me is that they enable me to see the world as a collection of symbols. It's like looking at a cluster of bubbles and seeing a perfect reflection of myself and everything around me in each one. Even the tiny bubbles show a hint of the reflection. Life appears as a lattice-work of cause and effect.

True, whatever "revelations" this produces are good only for me. Once we start assuming that our "revelations" apply to others, no matter how good the intentions, it gets all screwed up. (this doesn't pertain to the parenting of children, heheh.)

Just some thoughts.

peace,
hongomon

Edited by hongomon (05/13/02 09:40 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Swami]
    #628962 - 05/13/02 09:44 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Your computer is hardly a brain (at least not in the same terms as a living one) and Coke is hardly psilocybin. ;D

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Anonymous

Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Swami]
    #628974 - 05/13/02 09:54 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

How I see it.. is when someone is more.. connected.. to the 'divine' (whatever you believe it happens to be) sober, its still just chemical reaction in the brain causing a feeling. So a realization made under the influence of a hallucinogen is no less valid than one made while sober. And since psilocybin/lsd imitate seratonin, and (according to a research paper on erowid, LSD seratonin and the third eye) stimulates parts of the brain that are largely unused.. it seems plausible that you could realize things you may not while sober. Not that you are incapable of such realization, you just dont do it. Most the insights I've had about 'god' were made sober, and some stoned/drunk talking to friends.. And alot are similar to the 'psychadelic insights' people talk about. Its like a different avenue to the same place. Only a lot more colorful and hilarious. ;p
Bugs me when people think of drugs as a 'crutch' as if every feeling they had weren't chemically induced.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Swami]
    #629066 - 05/13/02 10:49 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

And if the truth at the time tells you to slit your wrists...?

LOL

If the 'truth' told you to cut your wrists, it's a pretty good indication that it's NOT the truth.

As I said, doing psychedelics doesn't guarantee that you'll see the truth.
It just opens up possibilities.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: infidelGOD]
    #629178 - 05/13/02 12:19 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

IG: I don't need to verify the 'truth' of the experience because it is the truth at the time.

IG: If the 'truth' told you to cut your wrists, it's a pretty good indication that it's NOT the truth.

Your stance is confusing to me. I am not trying to be picky about semantics, but to understand what you are trying to communicate.

Verify:
1 : to confirm or substantiate in law by oath
2 : to establish the truth, accuracy, or reality of


In statement 1 you say there is no need to verify the truth at the moment, in statement 2 you advocate using judgement to test the veracity of the truth.

On very high dosages, one no longer has any ability to discern the truth.

Some see God and say "That's the truth." Others suffer extreme depression and have suicidal thoughts - which to them is true at the moment.

My point is that I don't think any ultimate divine or demonic message comes through.





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: hongomon]
    #629198 - 05/13/02 12:27 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Sometimes, on shrooms, my thoughts are going a thousand mph! And constantly branching into fractal sub-thoughts. One thought creates two parallels, each of these spawns a pair of afterthoughts, and so on. On higher doses I can see the pattern of the thoughts, like a spiral tie-dye, on the backs of my eyelids. Thinking, however rambled and confused, is anything but decreased.

I don't think we really disagree here. The number of thoughts may increase exponentially, but I would not call that thinking. One's ability to reason or to intentionally control the thought process decreases.

Think:
1 a : to exercise the powers of judgment, conception, or inference : REASON


I think it is wonderful that many have revelations that have personal significance. No one can argue with that. But if we are to construct a model of what happens on psilocybin, then we MUST take into account the negative effects as well. They cannot be merely swept under the rug because they do not conform to our view.

If ALL that we experience while tripping is not true, how do we know that ANY of it is?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: Swami]
    #629232 - 05/13/02 12:56 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

the moment I'm talking about is a spiritual experience under the influence of psychedelics. not extreme depression or psychosis, those are pre-existing conditions. Any healthy, stable person taking them shouldn't experience any suicidal tendencies. just because you want to cut yourself doesn't mean that you have arrived at a moment of truth.


In statement 1 you say there is no need to verify the truth at the moment, in statement 2 you advocate using judgement to test the veracity of the truth.

The "experience" described in statement 1 is a specific condition, by definition of this condition, negative thoughts are excluded.
Apply statement 2: negative thoughts means condition not reached..

I agree that there is no ultimate message coming through, I believe the ultimate message is being created in that moment and it might have no use outside that moment. But it is not meaningless.

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Offlinejono
misc.
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 137
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: infidelGOD]
    #629878 - 05/14/02 02:42 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Swami, I dont exactly see how your argument follows, you agree at one instance that the number of thoughts may increase exponenetially, but refuse to accept that this has any relation to thinking? Aren't "thought", and "to think" intrinsically related terms? Isnt a thought simply a past tense of the action, to think? Any thought has been constructed through some process of reason (thinking) surely. (leaving aside the nature of that reason, it may be logical reasoning, or illogical, but this is of little relevance)

"If ALL that we experience while tripping is not true, how do we know that ANY of it is?" This is remarkable in similarity to the philosophical argument of scepticism. That is, our senses can no doubetly be decieved, and therefore i dont really know anything about the world (i dont personally believe this argument, but are just using it to show the similarity).

I do agree that it is probably impossible to get any "truth" as such from an experience of tripping as such. As significant and mind-blowing the experience may be, and the personal revelations about oneself and the world it can deliver it is impossible to verify them, and think this is what swami is saying.(correct me if im wrong).

Yet if one wants to take these relevations as something spiritual, then i totally believe that one has the right to do that. Religion and spiritually are not based on verification or "truths" they come back to one word, "Faith". If one wants to have "Faith" in ones experience, then by all means, do so!


Cheers,
Jono.


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton

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InvisibleEclecticSeeker
Free Thinker
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 10
Loc: It depends
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: ShroominSpradl]
    #629896 - 05/14/02 03:09 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

What's your definition of a non-believer? It's been my experience that everyone I've ever met (with the exception of a few people in funeral homes) believes in something or has some underlying assumptions about the nature of things.


--------------------
Please clean the dogma from your shoes before entering.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: EclecticSeeker]
    #630182 - 05/14/02 08:32 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Jono-
As far as the thought vs. think issue...
It is my contention that "think" implies intention whereas "thought" does not necessarily imply intention. I think that psiloc(yb)in triggers neural cascades that are similar to that of a normal thought process, however since it is a random event... there is no intentionality. Therefore, shrooms do not make you think (until afterwards maybe)... they merely bombard you with thoughts.

ES-
I think they're using this formula
non-believer = "skeptic"
versus the
believer = non-critical thinker


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: jono]
    #630393 - 05/14/02 11:03 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Excellent post, jono. My dictionary has 27 entries for "think," and I believe Swami's and Sclorch's definitions to be very narrow. However, Sclorch's comment, "...(until afterwards maybe)..." points to a place that perhaps we can agree. The fact that I can "come back to my senses" and recall the entire experience, and contemplate it, is of HUGE significance. Perhaps the thought process at this stage is more effective per se, but I can't separate it from the earlier, wilder patterns of thought that it now reflects on.

I do agree with Swami, however, that it's important to remind ourselves now and then that, for whatever value they hold, mushrooms are not 100% safe. Sorry if I seem to have taken on the opposite stance in that regard.

Peace,
hongomon

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: non-believers and ego loss [Re: hongomon]
    #630417 - 05/14/02 11:26 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

My dictionary has 27 entries for "think," and I believe Swami's and Sclorch's definitions to be very narrow.

I "think" that listing all 27 definitions would not only have bored everyone to tears, but would have muddied the waters more than picking the one that most closely applied to the discussion. Succinctness has a beauty all its own


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
preexisting underlying condition [Re: infidelGOD]
    #630444 - 05/14/02 11:42 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Any healthy, stable person taking them shouldn't experience any suicidal tendencies.

This appears to be your basic tautology. If a person had suicidal thoughts while tripping then he must not be healthy? I don't believe that.

Shouldn't? ALL of us have suppressed emotions and unfinished issues that can quickly be brought to the surface while tripping whether we are ready to deal with them or not. These feelings can be overwhelming to the point that one would rather escape than face them. Or it may not even be that psychologically deep. It could just be plain old sensory overload causing terror and bringing about the ultimate "flight" response.

The whole "preexisting underlying condition" is nonsense. If Identical Twin A goes a lifetime without a psychotic break and never trips, and Identical Twin B goes 40 years with no problems, then experiences a psychotic break under 6 grams of cubes, can his condition really be said to be "pre-existing"?

This is a myth put out by drug proponents that is no lesser propaganda than that put out by prohibitionists. The defenders do not want to admit there is any danger in journeying, which of course, there is.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: preexisting underlying condition [Re: Swami]
    #630489 - 05/14/02 12:21 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

The whole "preexisting underlying condition" is nonsense


ALL of us have suppressed emotions and unfinished issues that can quickly be brought to the surface


?



I still think that with proper set and setting, a responsible tripper would not suffer that kind of a breakdown. but of course, anything can happen...
I never said journeying was free from danger. You take your life into your own hands and you are responsible for everything that happens. You can't blame the drug.

And I am not a drug proponent. I don't think they are inherently good or bad.



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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: preexisting underlying condition [Re: infidelGOD]
    #630578 - 05/14/02 01:52 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

And I am not a drug proponent. I don't think they are inherently good or bad.

I agree... all I can say is that they've worked for me.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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