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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
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Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear
    #1943614 - 09/23/03 09:10 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've seen a few posts here and in other places
(Erowid etc) on Ego Loss and many people talk about
it as a terrifying thing. It seems to be, by pure
rationality, that if the ego is the cause of fear
via attachment and desire, then fear in ego-loss-mode
would be a contradiction in terms....
thoughts ?
I mean it's kinda like saying: I let go of all my
attachments and cravings and completely accepted what
is and lost all sense of self and I was terrified...
who's the I who got terrified if the ego was
relenquished ?


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: lucid]
    #1943623 - 09/23/03 09:23 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think its the moments before ego-loss that people experiance fear.
As your ego is vaporizing and you feel your dying there is still an ego there. Your ego is flipping out as it realizes its going to cease to exist.
If you try to cling to your ego as your going out it can be a terrifying experiance.Then as you procede your ego stops/dies/loss. This is usually when there is extreme peace and the magic accures. There is no longer and "I" only "ALL".

Just my point of view.

:heart:One Love :heart: 


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Some climb
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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: lucid]
    #1943693 - 09/23/03 10:21 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I had experience ego loss with shrooms many times, as a matter of fact is one of the goals that I shoot for when I trip.
Ego loss could be very scary, but the lesson to be learned is to recognize that the part that is scared is not really you.
The more "the ego" struggles to hold on the worst the trip gets, but instead if you let go, surrender to it then you will have a "transcendence" experience.
I believe that these types of experiences are a good training for the day you will take your final plunge into eternity.
They are like mini death's that you get to come back, is one of the grate lessons that the shrooms teach.



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OfflineBluMonkee
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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: LOBO]
    #1945909 - 09/23/03 10:06 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LOBO said:
I believe that these types of experiences are a good training for the day you will take your final plunge into eternity.
They are like mini death's that you get to come back, is one of the grate lessons that the shrooms teach.

 


This is an awesome way to describe ego loss !! :oogle: I think you just had a profound impact on my next trip from afar Lobo, thanks so much  :grin: 


--------------------
"If I don't see ya' in the future, I'll see ya' in the pasture"


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Anonymous

Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: BluMonkee]
    #1946029 - 09/23/03 10:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It was traumatic for me to realise that beyond the ego-loss i was just ONE thing, it was terrifying , truly awful. There was nothing but gargantuan loneliness. In my ignorance then of the higher perspectives on this, i slipped into Dorothy mode.."theres no place like home, theres no place like home!"I had to get back to ME , with a fresh perspective on the saying "lonelier than god". Its true that Nirvana is pure annihilation of every aspect of us as a seperate human entity, but its also true we are here to realise we are not seperate from anything.


Edited by Anonymous (09/23/03 10:52 PM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: lucid]
    #1946030 - 09/23/03 10:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

when you lose your ego, you're basically unconscious, but you can still experience fear. it's like when you're dreaming - there's no ego, no self-awareness, but you can still experience basic emotions.
it's not that you are fearing your loss of ego, there is no I that is "fearing". you are experiencing an egoless primal fear.
think of it this way - fear existed in humans before the ego. fear exists in animals, so when you strip away the human ego, basic emotions still remain.



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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: ]
    #1946979 - 09/24/03 06:33 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

neon said:
Its true that Nirvana is pure annihilation of every aspect of us as a seperate human entity, but its also true we are here to realise we are not seperate from anything. 




:thumbup: :grin:

I can't wait until I have on of those shaman trips where I become an animal in nature or something... hehe.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1947180 - 09/24/03 09:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

your ego is who you think you are, loss of ego is who you really are which i think that is not something to be afraid of


--------------------
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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1947244 - 09/24/03 10:07 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

when you lose your ego, you're basically unconscious, but you can still experience fear




From my own experience, I find that is not that you are unconscious, is truly that you do not remember, just like a dream.
I know this for a fact example:
In one of the rear occasions my trip buddy and me reached ego-loss more or less at the same time, wile in that state I remembered some of the experience even things we said, yet when we came back he had no recollection of that experience only after telling him abutted he remembered it a few days later, and was baffled that he had forgotten the most important part of the trip.
About the fear you mention I have never experienced that, on the contrary upon reaching ego-loss, I find that I am hole again, eternal and living in the primal force in creation Love.
Thou I had experienced the primal fear before loosing the ego.
I am convinced that the problem of remembering has to do with lack of awareness.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: LOBO]
    #1947305 - 09/24/03 10:51 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> From my own experience, I find that is not that you are unconscious, is truly that you do not remember, just like a dream.

Ahh... but is that an effect of egoloss or an effect of the drug?  :smile:


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1947365 - 09/24/03 11:31 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
when you lose your ego, you're basically unconscious, but you can still experience fear. it's like when you're dreaming - there's no ego, no self-awareness, but you can still experience basic emotions.
it's not that you are fearing your loss of ego, there is no I that is "fearing". you are experiencing an egoless primal fear.
think of it this way - fear existed in humans before the ego. fear exists in animals, so when you strip away the human ego, basic emotions still remain.

 



Hmm...I'm not so sure about that but then I've never experienced
what I would consider true ego loss. I suspect that anyone who
experiences *true* ego loss would be transformed psychologically
at that moment, i.e. there is no "I experienced ego loss, and
then came back to regular egoic conciousness". Just my humble
opinion tho, based on my simplistic reasoning. I figured that
once one has relenquished conditioned social programming,
self image, attachment etc, and left with simple non-judgemental
awareness, then Fear could not possibly exist. Fear is caused
by a future projection of a harmful situation. Perhaps pain would
exist but not Fear...I'll say that again...pain maybe, but not
fear...
Also regarding animals, I don't "imagine" (the irony  :rolleyes: )
the ego-less state to be the same as primal animalistic awareness...
I don't think one would become impulsive and agressive etc.
Perhaps a better term is "trancending" the ego...
I believe one would be in Observer mode and capable of
observing conditioned mind patterns non-judgementally,
detached and most importantly without the conditioned
reactivity...
It is my understanding that this is how Monks, Meditators etc
seem to "tolerate" pain....they arn't tolerating anything,
that would be another manifestation of the ego, instead
they manage to dissassociate from it and observe it in
the moment and not create suffering out of it by thinking
how long the pain will last etc...
IMHO...
Thoughts ? 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: Seuss]
    #1947371 - 09/24/03 11:33 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ahh... but is that an effect of egoloss or an effect of the drug?




I feel and I could be wrong, that is the lack of "awareness" , like suddenly you get hock top to a mega information center, but when you come back to your "ego" you can only store 2 meg bytes of info of the millions of gigabits you were swimming in before, our current brain can not store that type of info or it is not trained to store it.
You see the trick is not reaching there the trick is to bring the experience back.
You dream every night you have many adventures in one night but do you remember them? Fragments at best, but it is possible to train yourself to have better dream recollection and eventually lucid dreams, same with shrooms.
I believe that is what the shamans know how to do.
But a poor shmuck will take shrooms and remember almost nothing some even pass out.
Even more I bet many people had this experience, they will take shrooms and when there state of consciousness changes they will remember thing from other shrooms trips, but did not recall them from a normal state of consciousness.
Food for thought.


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: lucid]
    #1947416 - 09/24/03 11:54 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I suspect that anyone who
experiences *true* ego loss would be transformed psychologically
at that moment, i.e. there is no "I experienced ego loss, and
then came back to regular egoic conciousness". Just my humble
opinion tho, based on my simplistic reasoning.




I defer in opinion but this is the key of understanding entheogens.
You are right that if you experience total ego death you will be transformed, and that is the goal of most spiritual practices, and is a lot of work but the effects in transformation are probably permanent.
Entheogens in my opinion are not the magical pill for transformation as many believe but only a vehicle to show you the possibilities.
The language that we use here is perhaps a bit misleading instead I think we should call it "ego sleep" that is what shrooms do, puts you ego to sleep for a wile (if you allow it to happen) unfortunealy then it wakes up.
The reason I use entheogens once in a wile is just to remind my self that there is much more out there and in me, is an alarm clock.


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: LOBO]
    #1947417 - 09/24/03 11:54 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"You see the trick is not reaching there the trick is to bring the experience back."
Interesting...I never think of Nirvana or ego loss as an
experience, but rather as a tranformative moment...
the experience at that moment would probably be peaceful
and "burdenless", but that's just an egotistical view
on an unimaginable state...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: LOBO]
    #1947436 - 09/24/03 12:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LOBO said:
 
Quote:

I suspect that anyone who
experiences *true* ego loss would be transformed psychologically
at that moment, i.e. there is no "I experienced ego loss, and
then came back to regular egoic conciousness". Just my humble
opinion tho, based on my simplistic reasoning. 




I defer in opinion but this is the key of understanding entheogens.
You are right that if you experience total ego death you will be transformed, and that is the goal of most spiritual practices, and is a lot of work but the effects in transformation are probably permanent.
Entheogens in my opinion are not the magical pill for transformation as many believe but only a vehicle to show you the possibilities.
The language that we use here is perhaps a bit misleading instead I think we should call it "ego sleep" that is what shrooms do, puts you ego to sleep for a wile (if you allow it to happen) unfortunealy  then it wakes up.
The reason I use entheogens once in a wile is just to remind my self that there is much more out there and in me, is an alarm clock.
 



Actually I was refering to Ego loss period... i.e. nothing
to do with entheogens... I keep forgetting I'm on the shroomery :grin:
I don't take any entheogens and was just thinking about the
state of ego loss - ironic, to think the unthinkable... 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: lucid]
    #1947454 - 09/24/03 12:10 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> like suddenly you get hock top to a mega information center, but when you come back to your "ego" you can only store 2 meg bytes of info of the millions of gigabits you were swimming in before, our current brain can not store that type of info or it is not trained to store it.

A very good analogy.

> You see the trick is not reaching there the trick is to bring the experience back.

The real trick is riding the edge between here and there, like floating on the waves in an ocean. Each time a wave comes, you ride up into information overload. Each time a wave recedes, you come back with the experience.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: lucid]
    #1948474 - 09/24/03 05:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Also regarding animals, I don't "imagine" (the irony )
the ego-less state to be the same as primal animalistic awareness...
I don't think one would become impulsive and agressive etc


yeah I agree with that. we don't become animals.. but consider that fear predates the ego, predates the existence of human beings. I think the same can be said of Love. so these emotions don't depend on the ego to exist. I'm not saying that you WILL experience fear during ego loss. you CAN experience it. you'll experience all kinds of things - a stream of consciousness without an observer... let me ask you this - do you ever experience fear in a dream? do you experience love in a dream?

even in a non-lucid dream, without any kind of "ego" involved, I experience all kinds of emotions. there is no I experiencing them. there is no distinction between me and the experience. ego loss is kind of like that for me. I don't remember it very well, but I do remember experiencing emotions like fear and great Love, though not in a traditional sense. hard to explain it. they're more like archetypes of emotions that exist in everyone - one minute you're terrified for no reason, and the next minute you're enveloped in pure Love.


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1948592 - 09/24/03 06:11 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting :smile:
I've always considered Ego loss to be a "more awake" experience,
rather than dream-like...
So my "opinion" (completely un-corroborated) is that
1) Primal irrational Fear/Dispair/Love/Joy etc exist
in the dream like state
2) The ego tends to control these (or at least tries)
in the normal waking state
3) The ego and all of these feelings thoughts are "trancended"
in a Nirvanic state, resulting in a Bliss which knows no
opposite
Jeez I'm talking about this like I've been there :rolleyes:
But that was just my understanding from reading various texts. 


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: lucid]
    #1948655 - 09/24/03 06:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

hhmmm... it just occured to me that we could be talking about completely different experiences...
after all, how could we ever know what "ego-loss" really feels like to someone else? I guess the same could be said of any experience.
we are all disconnected beings trying to communicate using words, things that can't be captured with words.

in fact, now that I think of it, I don't even know if I was actually experiencing ego loss or if I was just fucked out of my gourd.. I don't know, it just seemed to fit the description that I've read.
damn buzzwords... nothing but trouble, giving false preconceptions and expectations to the entheogenic explorer.


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Ego Loss, Nirvana, and Fear [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1948680 - 09/24/03 06:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"I don't even know if I was actually experiencing ego loss or if I was just fucked out of my gourd"
:lol:

yup, here's an appropriate quote from Casteneda regarding words:
"The flaw with words is that they always make us feel enlightened,
but when we turn around to face the world they always fail us
and we end up facing the world as we always have, without
enlightenment. For this reason a warrior seeks to act rather
than to talk, and to this effect, he gets a new description
of the world - a new description where talking is not that
important, and where new acts have new reflections" -Tales of Power
Ironic that I'm quoting this...
Would have been nice if he hadn't made up his whole series :smirk:
oh well, he was quite the genius nonetheless :smile:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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