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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5508893 -

and according to buddha, ramana maharshi, etc these powers can actually be developed, they are not all simply "tall tales", corrrect?

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5509123 -

I did not generalize to all instances of anything. I was not even addressing the notion of healing. I believe that we all have latent abilities that belong to the psychic domain without having to attribute rapid or spontaneous healings to the intervention of God. Now, resurrecting a friend from actual death is purely midrashic to me.

Bible accounts have people asking Jesus to heal their loved ones, sometimes at a distance. Other times the intervention is more intimate. The story about the woman who touched the hem of Jesus' garment for example is somewhat magical - Jesus says that He feels 'virtue' leave Him (virtue, from 'virtus' means 'male strength').
Meanwhile, when the bereaved mother of a dead child asks Buddha to resurrect her child, Buddha sends the poor mother on a wild goose chase in search of mustard seed from a house which has not seen death. She gets the point after a few disappointments - all have known the grief of death.

Healing in the NT is still midrashic because the word for healing, health also means wholeness as it does holiness. Jesus is said to still the very winds and waves. He is Master over all of nature - a Transcendental Reality in human form. Backtracking metaphorically, and we arrive at the understanding that Transcendental Reality (God) is a kind, benevolent Master of the Universe. It is not about the human Jesus who has 'powers.' In fact, the idea that 'Jesus rose from the dead,' suggests that Jesus had power to do this. NO. Jesus was RAISED from the dead by God. Jesus is, as Grace Slick of the 'Jefferson Airplane' once sang "...any man's story...," and this is indeed the deepest, truest meaning behind the archetype which is Jesus the Christ. It is not about powers, the powers are midrash intended to turn us all to God.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5509167 -

i understand that's its not about the powers and that jesus did not ''possess powers'' but rather simply gave himself to God. what i'm saying is that spiritual teachers both past and present have said that such things as spontaneous healings can take place. im not denying that their purpose is to turn us to God or whatever else you're saying, i'm only saying that the claim has been made that they can take place.

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5509183 -

I've noticed that miracles in the Christian tradition differ alot from that of Islam. In Islam very few Prophet Mohammed's miracles are directed towards other people (such as healing the sick or raising the dead) but rather manipulating the environment, like the splitting of the moon, or cold water flowing from his finger tips. I suppose on the biggest one is the over-night ascension and chariot visit to Jerusalem to 'meet with the Prophets' for a few hours.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5509200 -

As a literal event, it is pragmatically useless. Everything Jesus does, is allowed or given to do by God is useless to us if it is literally about the man Jesus. I mean, how nice for Jesus to have resurrected, been transmogrified into some subtle body which is a physical-spiritual hybrid, and which eventually 'ascends' to the Fullness [Pleroma] of the Godhead to 'sit at the right hand of God.' But what is that to the rest of us humans?

A Literalist (psychic) Christian who believes that these writings are historical accounts will also believe that his/her own salvation/resurrection will be some historical event. I shudder to think of billions of dead humans, long since reduced to molecules, reanimating from their graves and somehow reappearing on Earth (not to mention those cremated). Even if the resurrection bodies are not physical, there is still this notion of an 'incorruptible body' living again on Earth (like Jehova Witness mythos). This would not be an eternal condition, this New Jerusalem, if one is talking about form. God knows our sun will die at some point. The whole story is absurd if one reads it literally. Metaphorically it helps us approach Transcendental Reality - both our timeless spiritual nature and the nature of God - both of which are ungraspable by rationality (particularly if our essential nature is somehow God or God's 'Uncreated Energy' (as per Eastern Orthodox Christian theology).

Before the canonical Gospels, there were Gnostic gospels, and those Gnostics certainly did not intend their cosmological dramas to be taken literally. They knew full well that they were creating these dramas to 'suggest' the nature of Reality, including our place in it, and how to live our lives in the light of their understanding of Reality. Gospel writers were addressing multitudes of unsophisticated people who would take these myths literally. Educated individuals, even Celsus, a Pagan opponent of Christianity, was opposing this dumbing-down of the Perennial Philosophy as well as the Christian claims to uniqueness. Celsus understood the message while rejecting the Christian cultus.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: TheCow]
    #5509234 -

You are interpreting as thogh the entire Bible is one coherent indivisible body of belief. It isn't. The Old Testament portion alone was written over a large span of time under various extreme social conditions which colored the hopes of the Hebrews. Their theology changed over millennia. The messianic hope for a warrior king split off into a purely spiritual messiah with the advent of Christianity, but only those non-Jews who belonged to traditions of Mystery Religions or their influence truly took to the Jesus of the Gospels.
Of course Jesus is a savior, as was Dionysus (god of Nysus), another dismembered and resurrecting demigod. The Hero born of mortal woman and God does not belong to Judaism which is why the Jewish Church petered out (pun intended) shortly after the beginnings of the new religion.

As a matter of fact Freke & Gandy in their work on Christian Gnosticism point out remarkable parallels between Plato (and 'The Republic') and Jesus in Jesus and the Lost Goddess (in case your interested).



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5509393 -

Deviate said:
i understand that's its not about the powers and that jesus did not ''possess powers'' but rather simply gave himself to God. what i'm saying is that spiritual teachers both past and present have said that such things as spontaneous healings can take place. im not denying that their purpose is to turn us to God or whatever else you're saying, i'm only saying that the claim has been made that they can take place.


OK. I'm not in any position to say what is NOT possible, so I rather agree with you. I've travelled from basic ignorance, to non-belief, to belief, to rabid belief, to mature belief. In my mature belief, there is more balance between idealism that anything is possible and the realism that enjoins more (in my case) of basic empiricism. It's sort of like: 'First there is a mountain - then there is no mountain - then there is,' in the Donovan lyrical version of that Zen saying. My empirical realism can be intruded upon Transcendental reality, which, I believe underlies and sustains empirical reality. First there was only empirical reality. Then there was only the Transcendental reality. Now there is both. How they condition each other seems to be what we are kicking back and forth.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5509445 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
As a literal event, it is pragmatically useless. Everything Jesus does, is allowed or given to do by God is useless to us if it is literally about the man Jesus. I mean, how nice for Jesus to have resurrected, been transmogrified into some subtle body which is a physical-spiritual hybrid, and which eventually 'ascends' to the Fullness [Pleroma] of the Godhead to 'sit at the right hand of God.' But what is that to the rest of us humans?

A Literalist (psychic) Christian who believes that these writings are historical accounts will also believe that his/her own salvation/resurrection will be some historical event. I shudder to think of billions of dead humans, long since reduced to molecules, reanimating from their graves and somehow reappearing on Earth (not to mention those cremated). Even if the resurrection bodies are not physical, there is still this notion of an 'incorruptible body' living again on Earth (like Jehova Witness mythos). This would not be an eternal condition, this New Jerusalem, if one is talking about form. God knows our sun will die at some point. The whole story is absurd if one reads it literally. Metaphorically it helps us approach Transcendental Reality - both our timeless spiritual nature and the nature of God - both of which are ungraspable by rationality (particularly if our essential nature is somehow God or God's 'Uncreated Energy' (as per Eastern Orthodox Christian theology).

Before the canonical Gospels, there were Gnostic gospels, and those Gnostics certainly did not intend their cosmological dramas to be taken literally. They knew full well that they were creating these dramas to 'suggest' the nature of Reality, including our place in it, and how to live our lives in the light of their understanding of Reality. Gospel writers were addressing multitudes of unsophisticated people who would take these myths literally. Educated individuals, even Celsus, a Pagan opponent of Christianity, was opposing this dumbing-down of the Perennial Philosophy as well as the Christian claims to uniqueness. Celsus understood the message while rejecting the Christian cultus.


i'm not sure who you are replying to but assuming this was to me, you know full well i am not a psychic or literalist christian.

''Everything Jesus does, is allowed or given to do by God is useless to us if it is literally about the man Jesus.''

you seem to have misunderstood me if you think that's what i'm saying. lets forget about jesus for a minute and talk about ramamana maharshi, buddha, etc. when asked about siddhis they confirm their literal existence. i dont understand why you keep going on about all the hoopla surrounding siddhis. i'm attempting to keep this to a simple discussion of whether or not siddhis are possible.

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5509453 -

Markos,

The NT openly refutes your Gnostic notions. Gnostics were identified as false teachers and antichrists, read Paul and John, esp 1,2,3John.

Your teachings are heretical.

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: fivepointer]
    #5510036 -

i luv a good UFC bout...

:popcorn:


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i have less ego than you do!

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: fivepointer]
    #5510244 -

fivepointer said:
Your teachings are heretical.


I'd rather be a heretic than to be wrong. Indoctrinal Christanity takes it up the ass of small children! :shocked:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: fivepointer]
    #5510407 -

Paul was a Gnostic, he considered his gnosis to be true. The Gnostics themselves considered Paul to be a Gnostic. Read a scholarly work for a change: The Gnostic Paul by Princeton theologian and Gnosticism expert Dr. Elaine Pagels, who re-introduced this critically important conception of Christianity through her 1979 book The Gnostic Gospels.

What you are referring to are those Gnostics that Paul castigated for being 'puffed up,' i.e., ego-inflated. They, like many Westerners who attempt to digest Eastern thought (like Jnana Yoga, the Yoga of Knowledge [Gnosis]) have the unfortunate psychological tendency to identify their sense of personal selfhood (ego) with the indwelling Presence of God. This is a common problem with immature individuals in many different religions and disciplines including the then young cult of 'The Way.'

Since you obviously regard me as having no more knowledge in this area than you do, you feel that you are in a position to correct me. All you seem to have are the words that we all know from the canonical Bible, but you have not explored the breadth, depth and psycho-history which gave rise to those letters of Paul's. Moreover, the letters of John that you cite are forgeries as far as I am concerned, and like all the books that are included in the canon, only those which supported the political agenda of Constantine were admitted. The Johannine material is pure Hellenism - I could write a book on the mythic and Platonic aspects, not to mention the source of antisemitism, so don't get me started, and Just like the 'pastorals' of Paul, which completely contradict the egalitarian Paul of his legitimate letters, all things named Pauline are not truly Paul. You are free to interpret as you will, but it is beyond the point where you need to doubt the authority that you have placed on these selected writings.

Of course my interpretation is heretical. You are a total square, completely establishment with regard to the political agenda of ancient Christianity. We have debated this before and there is no longer a debate. Literalist reading of scripture is absurd, but worse, it is useless. It has no power to transform me and neither has this world been transformed by it except in the heinous ways of persecution, pogroms, unspeakable horrors. Literalist Christianity has not got much time left before it perishes. Fortunately, the living kernal will survive and it will eventually be seen as the truly catholic and universal perennial truth that it always was before evil men usurped the Name of Christ.

Good night to you fivepointer, good bye and may God bless you. I have no real desire to discuss mere repetition of Biblical lines without any effort on your part to explore whence they arose. Frankly, I am just tired of you using the word heretic:

"A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
adj.
[Middle English heretik, from Old French heretique, from Late Latin haereticus, from Greek hairetikos, able to choose, factious, from hairetos, chosen, from haireisthai, to choose" (Wikipedia)

I choose to interpret based on my own Experience of The Holy - not Rome's, not 'Orthodoxy' (such as it is) and not yours.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5511030 -

Deviate said:
and according to buddha, ramana maharshi, etc these powers can actually be developed, they are not all simply "tall tales", corrrect?


These attainments naturally arise as a result of correct meidtative practices.


--------------------

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5511039 -

yes. our ideas reguarding this topic don't differ, you just state things more accurately.

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5511042 -

and how do you know this?


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i have less ego than you do!

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5511069 -

Deeply personal experience.


--------------------

Edited by Sinbad (04/13/06 03:32 AM)

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5511133 -

Sinbad said:
Deeply personal experience.


Me too, bro. I don't know exactly what's possible, but there is alot of stuff that is possible simply because of your mind's understanding.

Now.. back to the topic.

I also had a similar question about Jesus when he was on the cross. He said, "God, why have you forsaken me?"

I don't understand this because he is supposed to trust God. But instead, he is questioning God's love for him. Isn't that herecy? If he trusted God, he would not question God's intentions. He would know that God loves him no matter what.


--------------------
Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5511183 -

The people who rewrite the bible every now and then probably added that extra tit bit for dramatic effect. :lol:


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5513057 -

hobbitcg said:
Sinbad said:
Deeply personal experience.


Me too, bro. I don't know exactly what's possible, but there is alot of stuff that is possible simply because of your mind's understanding.

Now.. back to the topic.

I also had a similar question about Jesus when he was on the cross. He said, "God, why have you forsaken me?"

I don't understand this because he is supposed to trust God. But instead, he is questioning God's love for him. Isn't that herecy? If he trusted God, he would not question God's intentions. He would know that God loves him no matter what.


he was quoting Psalm 22 :

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him?
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him?
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn?
for he has done it.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5513641 -

Sinbad said:
Deviate said:
and according to buddha, ramana maharshi, etc these powers can actually be developed, they are not all simply "tall tales", corrrect?


These attainments naturally arise as a result of correct meidtative practices.


could you recommend a book or website that describes correct meditative practises? i want to start meditating.

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