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OfflineTemptress
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jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit
    #5503401 - 04/11/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry. And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. And he said to it, 'May no one ever eat fruit from you again.'"

Mark 11:12


how can he be called a zen master by some when he denise that which is and gets angry at a tree for being a tree and following nature? seems more like a petulant child than an enlightened sage.


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i have less ego than you do!


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Offlinelysergicide
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5503453 - 04/11/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So, by accepting something for what it is, it unables him to become angered by unfortunate events? And I don't remember much in the Bible that seems to point him out to being a "Zen master" at all... but then again I don't really read it, so I'm not much of an authority, huh?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5503468 - 04/11/06 01:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

met?a?phor
Pronunciation: 'me-t&-"for also -f&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French metaphore, from Latin metaphora, from Greek, from metapherein to transfer, from meta- + pherein to bear -- more at BEAR
1 : a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly : figurative language -- compare SIMILE
2 : an object, activity, or idea treated as a metaphor : SYMBOL 2


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5503486 - 04/11/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It is metaphorical for spiritual beings who do not bear spiritual fruit. I have read that from extrapolating from the rest of that Gospel story, the time of year could be deduced, and figs would not be sprouting anyway. Reading the Bible literally is a gross error. This is a cosmic version of 'use it or lose it,' with regard to manifesting our potentially generous (generating) spiritual nature in terms of the 'fruits of the spirit' (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, meekness, humility and self-control).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5503546 - 04/11/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Unfortunately, not everyone looks at a painting and see's the human nature that was poured into its creation. Its too bad the bible was not literal and to the point. The atmosphere surrounding the air of Christianity is full of unwarranted stupidity. Its core has been corrupted by the masses... it has been sold out.

Not everyone is curious, and not everyone is full of passion. Most people are empty because of that; the interest in life was chiseled down to a dull edge due to societal conditioning. I sincerely believe, that this emptiness has been filled with pop-religious thinking. But, its only filler. Which is why, I think religion altogether must be abandoned. Take away the comfort blanket, and let people be naked and afraid. A little pain is necessary for growth.

Try explaining sight to a blind man without getting frustrated! There is simply no point. You can only hope that a spark of curiosity has been set.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineTemptress
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5503881 - 04/11/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It is metaphorical for spiritual beings who do not bear spiritual fruit.




that is one interpretation and not necessarily correct. however, if one is spiritually out of season (not yet ready) then they should be condemned forever?

To everything there is a season; and a time to every purpose under heaven.


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i have less ego than you do!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5503916 - 04/11/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Whatever its interpretation, it is clearly not meant to be taken literally.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5503925 - 04/11/06 02:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The tree was not condemned Humanity was temptress. He forbid humans from eating of it not the tree from bearing fruit. Whats missing is probrobly where the people before had taken more than their fill and left none for anyone else. Thats how I always read it at least.


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: blaze2]
    #5503946 - 04/11/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

jesus was a human being just like you and me. he wasn't born with christ consciousness he he had to work up to that stage. the story of the fig tree demonstrates that even jesus could could make a mistake.


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5503980 - 04/11/06 03:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The bible can be read in two totally different ways, as a literal history of Christ and as a symbolic and metaphorical teaching of how to live.
Most ignorant christians read it as literal and really only listen to the direct messages in some of the teachings in the gospels of Mathew Mark and Luke.(Synoptic)
If you really understand what you are reading and look into the mircales (a mis-translation from the greek meaning signs), you really learn what the Christian faith is suppose to be about.(Gospel of John). I wish people would understand the true teaching the bible can provide about human nature and spirituality.


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"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


Edited by David_vs_Goliath (04/11/06 03:07 PM)


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5504258 - 04/11/06 04:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I hope everyone who thinks of it as a metaphor also doesnt believe in Jesus as a savior. If everything in the bible is just symbolism, then it is just a work of abstracted philosophy and bears no more religious significance then something like The Republic. If some things in the bible arent meant to be taken literally, then I claim by induction that nothing in the bible is meant to be taken literally. Either it truly represents a religious doctrine and everything in it no matter how fantastic it is really happened, or its just meant to be a piece of philosophy. Whose to say jesus isnt a metaphor then, or that God doesnt represent some metaphor? Like people who claim that the flood was just symbolism to represent God's anger. Take one piece then discard the other.

The more into the future we get, the more people claim certain passages from the bible are just symbolism. Very interesting really.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5504293 - 04/11/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
It is metaphorical for spiritual beings who do not bear spiritual fruit. I have read that from extrapolating from the rest of that Gospel story, the time of year could be deduced, and figs would not be sprouting anyway. Reading the Bible literally is a gross error.




It was intended as a metaphor, or is it simply those that interpret that consider it to be a metaphor? Metaphorical value can be derived from nearly anything, and it does not mean that the particular passage was intended to be metaphorical.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5504316 - 04/11/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

oh jesus
this temptress is making things choppy.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5504360 - 04/11/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

-Except from John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

This tree may not only be an emblem of the Jewish people, who made a great show of religion, and enjoyed a great many privileges; and from whom, speaking after the manner of men, the fruits of good works, righteousness, and holiness, might have been hoped and looked for; when instead thereof, there was nothing but talk about them, and an observance of some insignificant rites and traditions of the "elders"; on which account, utter ruin and destruction ensued; but also of any outward professor of religion, who enjoying the means of grace, and making great pretensions to devotion and piety, it might be expected that he should do good works, well pleasing to God, and bring forth fruit to the glory of his name: whereas he only talks of good works, but does none; at least, no fruits of grace and righteousness are to be found on him; and at the last day, he will be cast as dry wood, as a withered branch, into everlasting burnings, being fit fuel for them.


The Bible is full of types, pictures, parables. Spiritual truths are taught in literal reality, as the Bible is also 100% accurate.

Natural (unconverted) man does not understand spiritual truth at all, unless God the Holy Spirit opens these truths and converts the soul.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: fivepointer]
    #5504407 - 04/11/06 05:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i think the tree represents the fact that Jesus had a sexual encounter with the tree.

He commanded that people are not to eat from it ever again because he did not want his babies eaten.

Makes sense to me, and I'm hard to convince.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5504575 - 04/11/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you assume he is angry. how do you know?

what else is in the scripture to led up to this moment, and what happened afterwards? 

as far as metaphors go, I'm a bit iffy on them since it's all up to interpretation.  since this is the case, anyone can find their own truths to the matter, and thus everyone is just talking shit (like me!!!)  :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5504661 - 04/11/06 06:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It is a generally accepted interpretation, at least on a metaphorical/allegorical level. It is unlikely that there is a mystical underpinning to it, but the literal is out of the question for the same reason that ALL literal interpretations are out of the question. Temporality and geography are often so off in Biblical writ when compared to extra-biblical sources that they cannot be interpreted as historically accurate. There is no extra-biblical evidence even for the historical existence of Jesus except for 3 brief references by Suetonius, Tacitus and the Jewish Roman historian Flavius Josephus. One would think that the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo [of Alexandria], a contemporary of Jesus, would have heard something of His acclaim and have written about it. After all, it was Philo who did the most philosophically about the nature of the Logos.

Since we know next to nothing about a historical Jesus, it may well be that aside from some early sayings, every saying attributed to Jesus are 'insertions' so that a personality has been constructed, gleaned from Wisdom literature. Works for me though. The collective endeavor to build a Frankensteinian Jesus has worked very well to impart the composition of the paradigm for human development. Conforming to this 'construct' has transformed me in a high and holy manner, and so the fragments must themselves be 'shards of divinity.' As such, they also seem to have imparted 'discernment' to me in some measure - what fundamentalists like to call a 'gift of the Holy Spirit.' That would mean that my interpretation of scripture is consonant with the meaning that the writer wanted to impart.

Of course, I could be, as you suggest, just wrong. One of the hallmarks of mythic language is this absolutist tendency that you do not seem to like, but that is because you are taking the story literally. Mythic time is 'Parmenidian time' which is to say 'timeless.' Proclamations that sound like ultimatums do so because they are literary devices for the reader to give pause and contemplate eternity while reading/hearing. Eckhart Tolle masters this technique in modernity in several places in The Power of Now.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineTemptress
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5504704 - 04/11/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

could not a man walking through the desert for days ACTUALLY be hungry and then be angry when his needs were not fulfilled?


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i have less ego than you do!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5504718 - 04/11/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
It was intended as a metaphor, or is it simply those that interpret that consider it to be a metaphor? Metaphorical value can be derived from nearly anything, and it does not mean that the particular passage was intended to be metaphorical.



In this particular context, it would not make sense if interpreted literally.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5504725 - 04/11/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Temptress said:
could not a man walking through the desert for days ACTUALLY be hungry and then be angry when his needs were not fulfilled?



Maybe, but why would someone bother putting it in the gospels if it didnt have some deeper spiritual meaning?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5504757 - 04/11/06 06:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, of course, on the outermost surface of things. That level of meaning would supply the image that those in need of parabolic teaching require. But is there anything profound, wise, spiritual or metaphysical in that level alone? No. The fact that the Bible is considered scripural means that its content is meaningful not mundane, sacred, not profane. Learn to look beneath the surface when you read scriptures in Jewish, Christian and Muslim works.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineTemptress
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5504774 - 04/11/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

therein lies the trouble, with thousands of branches of christianity and judaism eahc proclaimimng there interpretation of the metaphor is the correct one - and frequently willing to demosntrate their superior stance through violence.

i prefer to think he was human and had a bad day. no need to kill anyone over that.


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Silversoul]
    #5504784 - 04/11/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
In this particular context, it would not make sense if interpreted literally.




Quote:

Temptress said:
could not a man walking through the desert for days ACTUALLY be hungry and then be angry when his needs were not fulfilled?





Quote:

Paradigm said:
Maybe, but why would someone bother putting it in the gospels if it didnt have some deeper spiritual meaning?




Why would they? Well, now, there could be a plethora of reasons why it would be included. Perhaps they wished to demonstrate that even Jesus was capable of lessening his degree of awareness when one's natural, bodily needs went unfufilled?

There is a great multitude of interpretations that can be drawn.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5504809 - 04/11/06 06:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Temptress said:
"On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry. And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. And he said to it, 'May no one ever eat fruit from you again.'"

                                                Mark 11:12


how can he be called a zen master by some when he denise that which is and gets angry at a tree for being a tree and following nature? seems more like a petulant child than an enlightened sage.





BTW gotta say, I love that signature of yours..

makes me think of this quote "If it was not for all them people thinking they know it all, it would have been so much easier for those of us who do!" ..

gotta LOVE that irony! :wink:


and to give a answer to your question;

even a zen master, can get angry,..

finish the story..

:tongue: :thumbup:


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Silversoul]
    #5504821 - 04/11/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Temptress said:
could not a man walking through the desert for days ACTUALLY be hungry and then be angry when his needs were not fulfilled?



Maybe, but why would someone bother putting it in the gospels if it didnt have some deeper spiritual meaning?





18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw [it], they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this [which is done] to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.



it did have meaning. supposedly the tree actually withered away as Jesus vented his frustration. it's not everyday that you see something like that.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5504862 - 04/11/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Cleave a piece of wood, and there I am. Lift a stone, and there I am."

Human? Who knows. What I do see though, is that the Mystery of the Christ backdrops any significance the man Jesus may have had. Even if Jesus didn't exist in the sense most people believe, the very Idea of the Logos of God becoming clothed in the flesh still stands as an "unmanifested" idea.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5504877 - 04/11/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Miracles are 'midrash.' Midrash is a literary device which uses colorful descriptions to 'highlight' or 'illuminate' a spiritual principle. Faith is an attitude of great power, but, as Ram Dass once suggested about this verse, by the time one has the faith to move mountains, one realizes that at one's Essence, we are the ONE who put the mountain there in the first place! And so the mountain remains. Meanwhile, we are transformed by the Realization.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5504926 - 04/11/06 07:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Miracles are 'midrash.' Midrash is a literary device which uses colorful descriptions to 'highlight' or 'illuminate' a spiritual principle. Faith is an attitude of great power, but, as Ram Dass once suggested about this verse, by the time one has the faith to move mountains, one realizes that at one's Essence, we are the ONE who put the mountain there in the first place! And so the mountain remains. Meanwhile, we are transformed by the Realization.




i dissagree, miracles are the equivalent of siddhis and the indian teachers will tell you they are not simply "literary devices". whether you believe they are possible or not is up to you but it's very clear to me that at least in some cases they were meant to be taken as literal happenings. i am not saying the bible never uses 'colorful language' to illustate a spiritual principle, only that that is not an adequate explanation for miracles. if anything, it's an attempt to reconcile one's beleifs.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5504959 - 04/11/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Temptress said:
"On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry. And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. And he said to it, 'May no one ever eat fruit from you again.'"

                                                Mark 11:12


how can he be called a zen master by some when he denise that which is and gets angry at a tree for being a tree and following nature? seems more like a petulant child than an enlightened sage.





BTW, look in to all the different translations..

:grin: :thumbup:


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5505032 - 04/11/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I've found that miracles serve the purpose of illuminating the nature of existence. To allow a story of one of Jesus' miracles of healing the sick, blind or lame for example is to polish the divine imagination. It is like in the Matrix where Neo is being taught to manipulate objects with his mind - he first has to believe that he can manipulate the object. The function of miracles as I see it is a symbolic attempt to destroy identification with material existence. They act as various alarm clocks coming from an otherly reality, penetrating deep within a dream. Ever have the redundent beeping of your alarm clock infiltrate a dream, with the beeping becoming more and more pitched until you recognize what it is and you are immediately awakened?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Basilides]
    #5505075 - 04/11/06 07:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I've found that miracles serve the purpose of illuminating the nature of existence. To allow a story of one of Jesus' miracles of healing the sick, blind or lame for example is to polish the divine imagination. It is like in the Matrix where Neo is being taught to manipulate objects with his mind - he first has to believe that he can manipulate the object. The function of miracles as I see it is a symbolic attempt to destroy identification with material existence. They act as various alarm clocks coming from an otherly reality, penetrating deep within a dream.

this is a good interpretation. nevertheless, it's quite clear to me that they often represented as actually having happened and actually being possible. buddha and most other spiritual teachers have always taught not to pursue them because its not conductive to enlightenment but they have also confirmed their existence.

Ever have the redundent beeping of your alarm clock infiltrate a dream, with the beeping becoming more and more pitched until you recognize what it is and you are immediately awakened?

no, i always awaken at the first sound of my alarm.


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5507385 - 04/12/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Siddhis belong to the Hindu tradition. Buddhists prefer to ignore them altogether. Yes, I've read Miracle of Love about Neem Karolie Baba after decades of familiarity with Ram Dass' work (my late father also read the book and called the stories "Bubba-monsas" - 'grandfather stories,' in Yiddish).

The Psi Functions (telepathy, clairvoyance, bi-location, etc.) belong to occult traditions the world over. These may all be real - I have experienced 'ring-like-a-bell-in-the-head' telepathy on 5 or 6 memorable occasions (most are archived here I trust), and I've had precognition, precognitive dreams as well. These things and others I am willing to accept with little difficulty. Walking on water is told in Hindu and Buddhist stories as well, but that does not mean it is a siddhi. It is like lotus blossoms springing up beneath baby Buddha's first steps. Buddhists don't call that 'midrash,' but it is illuminative writing nevertheless.

I am talking about parting of the Red Sea, pillars of fire and smoke, staffs being turned into serpents, holy fire (Seraphim) manifesting on a bush, etc. These writings are not about siddhis, although staffs turning into serpents is both thaumaturgy (the Pharoah's sorcerers) and theurgy (Moses' divinely-channelled magic) - both of which do fall under 'occult powers' which would be called siddhis. These theophanies of God are midrashic as far as I am concerned. You are free to interpret these supernatural events as historical, but that is not my interpretive choice.

Siddhis fall under the 'psychic' domain, whereas 'jnana' - gnosis - comes under the domain of the 'spiritual' in that it constitutes God-Realization. Fakirs can master control over their psyches and apparently others' as well, but they are not necessarily spiritual individuals, especially if they increase 'maya' and deceive people. I, however, have never experienced the 'spell' of a fakir so I am speculating based on what I've read.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5507992 - 04/12/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i am not talking about the parting of the red sea, holy fire, etc. i'm talking about jesus displaying powers such as healing the sick. this was meant to be taken literally as far as i'm concerned and it is considered a siddhi. buddha acknowledged the existence of siddhis and warned people not to pursue them because as you said, they fall under the psychic domain and are not conductive to enlightenment. to argue that all the accounts of saints and sages performing miraculous healings are instances of people using colorful language really makes little sense.


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5508195 - 04/12/06 01:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
i am not talking about the parting of the red sea, holy fire, etc. I'm talking about Jesus displaying powers such as healing the sick. this was meant to be taken literally as far as I'm concerned and it is considered a siddhi. Buddha acknowledged the existence of siddhis and warned people not to pursue them because as you said, they fall under the psychic domain and are not conductive to enlightenment. to argue that all the accounts of saints and sages performing miraculous healing are instances of people using colorful language really makes little sense.




This is a little incorrect. Buddha did not warn people against the nature of the siddhi's being something wrong. Neither did he say that they weren't conductive to enlightenment. Buddha said that they were signposts along the way. His warning was about not getting attached to or any temporary condition as this becomes an obstacle toward the ultimate realization of Buddhahood.

In the Vinaya(guideline for monks and nuns), the Buddha warned that displaying ones attainments to those who are not ready to see them is a mistake, as it can actually cause harm to oneself and others (Jesus as a fine example), if being/s that don't have open enough minds experience such things.

But really they are not miracles in the western sense of the word, with its Christian connotation.The Buddha said that it is "our minds that create this world" and as such, it is logical to assert, that once one learns to understand and tame thier mind, as a consequence ones confusion of conditoned existence is removed, and gradually, through this revolution of the inidividual, more control naturally and spontainiously occurs over ones recognised illusory manifestation.

If reality really is like a dream, and our minds really do create our "so called realities" then truly our potential must be totally unlimited in its capacity to be able to manifest such a marvelous and intricate display.


Edited by Sinbad (04/12/06 04:19 PM)


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5508219 - 04/12/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

and our minds really do create our "so called realities"



our minds merely 'create' our interpretations of reality; not the substance itself. we do not 'manifest' the stars whcih were here long before we were.


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!


Edited by Temptress (04/12/06 02:06 PM)


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5508277 - 04/12/06 02:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If both mind and matter are fundamentally empty of inherent self existence, then there is no difference in nature between them. Like the clear and limpid quality of a mirror, non-duality manifests infinite reflections. Conceputal interpretations of reality are like reflections, as are the manifestations of physical objects.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (04/12/06 03:18 PM)


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5508683 - 04/12/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Deviate said:
i am not talking about the parting of the red sea, holy fire, etc. I'm talking about Jesus displaying powers such as healing the sick. this was meant to be taken literally as far as I'm concerned and it is considered a siddhi. Buddha acknowledged the existence of siddhis and warned people not to pursue them because as you said, they fall under the psychic domain and are not conductive to enlightenment. to argue that all the accounts of saints and sages performing miraculous healing are instances of people using colorful language really makes little sense. "


I take a theology class...This is incorect. They are not meant to be "miracles" in the sense that we know the word. They are signs and enlightenments of human nature. Each of the 7 "signs" (7 is the number of fulfilment...) is meant to illuminate the possibility of the Kingdom of God and what it will be like. Sure a lot of the teachings are literal, but lots of the stories and mircales and symbolic.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5508709 - 04/12/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)



I take a theology class...This is incorect. They are not meant to be "miracles" in the sense that we know the word. They are signs and enlightenments of human nature. Each of the 7 "signs" (7 is the number of fulfilment...) is meant to illuminate the possibility of the Kingdom of God and what it will be like. Sure a lot of the teachings are literal, but lots of the stories and mircales and symbolic.



what is incorrect? the fact that many sages have claimed the existence of siddhis, including abilities such as healing the sick? even the dalai lama says these things are possible, NOT just metaphors. and yes, siddhis are signs and enlightenments of human nature. that is the sense in which i know the word. what sense are you speaking of?


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5508745 - 04/12/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

This is a little incorrect. Buddha did not warn people against the nature of the siddhi's being something wrong. He stated that they weren't conductive to enlightenment.

that's exactly what i said/meant. i didn't say there was anything wrong with them.


Buddha said that they were signposts along the way. His warning was about not getting attached to or any temporary condition as this becomes an obstacle toward the ultimate realization of Buddhahood.

i only brought this up because markos said buddhists prerfered to ignore them completely. i don't think thats entirely correct. i agree with what you're saying.

In the Vinaya(guideline for monks and nuns), the Buddha warned that displaying ones attainments to those who are not ready to see them is a mistake, as it can actually cause harm to oneself and others (Jesus as a fine example), if being/s that don't have open enough minds experience such things.

But really they are not miracles in the western sense of the word, with its Christian connotation.The Buddha said that it is "our minds that create this world" and as such, it is logical to assert, that once one learns to understand and tame thier mind, as a consequence ones confusion of conditoned existence is removed, and gradually, through this revolution of the inidividual, more control naturally and spontainiously occurs over ones recognised illusory manifestation.

If reality really is like a dream, and our minds really do create our "so called realities" then truly our potential must be totally unlimited in its capacity to be able to manifest such a marvelous and intricate display.


correct but technically if you wanted to call them ''miracles'' you could, i prefer to call them siddhis. all that must be understood is that these abilities are our natural abilities and can be developed by anyone, not just jesus. and jesus even says this: ''he that believeth on me shall do the works that i do and greater works he shall do for i go unto my father''. and in the fig tree passage i posted before he also says that you too can do what he does.

i completely understand people having a hard time belieiving in siddhis, what am i arguing against is people saying they are just exagerations or colorful language. to me that just seems like a dumbing down of spiritual teachings to make them seem more believable, like saying jesus wasn't really a spiritual teacher he was a wise moral philosopher.


Edited by Deviate (04/12/06 04:10 PM)


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5508849 - 04/12/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry, my mistake, i have correct and now it reads "Neither did he say that they weren't conductive to enlightenment. " .He stated that attachment to those attainments is non-conductive, not the siddhis themselves.

There is a story about a disciple of the Buddha, who after attaining some accomplishment in mediatation, had the power to control the elements to some degree. He was very proud of his attainments, and displayed them often, attracting many students. When he walked on water, he was so pleased that he had the thought "Not even the Buddha could do this". At that moment, due to his obscurations, he lost his power instantly, and sank into the water. After which he recognised his mistake and resumed his practice, vowing never to display his spiritual attainments flagrantly again.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (04/13/06 04:39 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5508893 - 04/12/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

and according to buddha, ramana maharshi, etc these powers can actually be developed, they are not all simply "tall tales", corrrect?


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5509123 - 04/12/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I did not generalize to all instances of anything. I was not even addressing the notion of healing. I believe that we all have latent abilities that belong to the psychic domain without having to attribute rapid or spontaneous healings to the intervention of God. Now, resurrecting a friend from actual death is purely midrashic to me.

Bible accounts have people asking Jesus to heal their loved ones, sometimes at a distance. Other times the intervention is more intimate. The story about the woman who touched the hem of Jesus' garment for example is somewhat magical - Jesus says that He feels 'virtue' leave Him (virtue, from 'virtus' means 'male strength').
Meanwhile, when the bereaved mother of a dead child asks Buddha to resurrect her child, Buddha sends the poor mother on a wild goose chase in search of mustard seed from a house which has not seen death. She gets the point after a few disappointments - all have known the grief of death.

Healing in the NT is still midrashic because the word for healing, health also means wholeness as it does holiness. Jesus is said to still the very winds and waves. He is Master over all of nature - a Transcendental Reality in human form. Backtracking metaphorically, and we arrive at the understanding that Transcendental Reality (God) is a kind, benevolent Master of the Universe. It is not about the human Jesus who has 'powers.' In fact, the idea that 'Jesus rose from the dead,' suggests that Jesus had power to do this. NO. Jesus was RAISED from the dead by God. Jesus is, as Grace Slick of the 'Jefferson Airplane' once sang "...any man's story...," and this is indeed the deepest, truest meaning behind the archetype which is Jesus the Christ. It is not about powers, the powers are midrash intended to turn us all to God.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5509167 - 04/12/06 05:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i understand that's its not about the powers and that jesus did not ''possess powers'' but rather simply gave himself to God. what i'm saying is that spiritual teachers both past and present have said that such things as spontaneous healings can take place. im not denying that their purpose is to turn us to God or whatever else you're saying, i'm only saying that the claim has been made that they can take place.


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5509183 - 04/12/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I've noticed that miracles in the Christian tradition differ alot from that of Islam. In Islam very few Prophet Mohammed's miracles are directed towards other people (such as healing the sick or raising the dead) but rather manipulating the environment, like the splitting of the moon, or cold water flowing from his finger tips. I suppose on the biggest one is the over-night ascension and chariot visit to Jerusalem to 'meet with the Prophets' for a few hours.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5509200 - 04/12/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

As a literal event, it is pragmatically useless. Everything Jesus does, is allowed or given to do by God is useless to us if it is literally about the man Jesus. I mean, how nice for Jesus to have resurrected, been transmogrified into some subtle body which is a physical-spiritual hybrid, and which eventually 'ascends' to the Fullness [Pleroma] of the Godhead to 'sit at the right hand of God.' But what is that to the rest of us humans?

A Literalist (psychic) Christian who believes that these writings are historical accounts will also believe that his/her own salvation/resurrection will be some historical event. I shudder to think of billions of dead humans, long since reduced to molecules, reanimating from their graves and somehow reappearing on Earth (not to mention those cremated). Even if the resurrection bodies are not physical, there is still this notion of an 'incorruptible body' living again on Earth (like Jehova Witness mythos). This would not be an eternal condition, this New Jerusalem, if one is talking about form. God knows our sun will die at some point. The whole story is absurd if one reads it literally. Metaphorically it helps us approach Transcendental Reality - both our timeless spiritual nature and the nature of God - both of which are ungraspable by rationality (particularly if our essential nature is somehow God or God's 'Uncreated Energy' (as per Eastern Orthodox Christian theology).

Before the canonical Gospels, there were Gnostic gospels, and those Gnostics certainly did not intend their cosmological dramas to be taken literally. They knew full well that they were creating these dramas to 'suggest' the nature of Reality, including our place in it, and how to live our lives in the light of their understanding of Reality. Gospel writers were addressing multitudes of unsophisticated people who would take these myths literally. Educated individuals, even Celsus, a Pagan opponent of Christianity, was opposing this dumbing-down of the Perennial Philosophy as well as the Christian claims to uniqueness. Celsus understood the message while rejecting the Christian cultus.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: TheCow]
    #5509234 - 04/12/06 06:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You are interpreting as thogh the entire Bible is one coherent indivisible body of belief. It isn't. The Old Testament portion alone was written over a large span of time under various extreme social conditions which colored the hopes of the Hebrews. Their theology changed over millennia. The messianic hope for a warrior king split off into a purely spiritual messiah with the advent of Christianity, but only those non-Jews who belonged to traditions of Mystery Religions or their influence truly took to the Jesus of the Gospels.
Of course Jesus is a savior, as was Dionysus (god of Nysus), another dismembered and resurrecting demigod. The Hero born of mortal woman and God does not belong to Judaism which is why the Jewish Church petered out (pun intended) shortly after the beginnings of the new religion.

As a matter of fact Freke & Gandy in their work on Christian Gnosticism point out remarkable parallels between Plato (and 'The Republic') and Jesus in Jesus and the Lost Goddess (in case your interested).



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5509393 - 04/12/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
i understand that's its not about the powers and that jesus did not ''possess powers'' but rather simply gave himself to God. what i'm saying is that spiritual teachers both past and present have said that such things as spontaneous healings can take place. im not denying that their purpose is to turn us to God or whatever else you're saying, i'm only saying that the claim has been made that they can take place.




OK. I'm not in any position to say what is NOT possible, so I rather agree with you. I've travelled from basic ignorance, to non-belief, to belief, to rabid belief, to mature belief. In my mature belief, there is more balance between idealism that anything is possible and the realism that enjoins more (in my case) of basic empiricism. It's sort of like: 'First there is a mountain - then there is no mountain - then there is,' in the Donovan lyrical version of that Zen saying. My empirical realism can be intruded upon Transcendental reality, which, I believe underlies and sustains empirical reality. First there was only empirical reality. Then there was only the Transcendental reality. Now there is both. How they condition each other seems to be what we are kicking back and forth.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5509445 - 04/12/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
As a literal event, it is pragmatically useless. Everything Jesus does, is allowed or given to do by God is useless to us if it is literally about the man Jesus. I mean, how nice for Jesus to have resurrected, been transmogrified into some subtle body which is a physical-spiritual hybrid, and which eventually 'ascends' to the Fullness [Pleroma] of the Godhead to 'sit at the right hand of God.' But what is that to the rest of us humans?

A Literalist (psychic) Christian who believes that these writings are historical accounts will also believe that his/her own salvation/resurrection will be some historical event. I shudder to think of billions of dead humans, long since reduced to molecules, reanimating from their graves and somehow reappearing on Earth (not to mention those cremated). Even if the resurrection bodies are not physical, there is still this notion of an 'incorruptible body' living again on Earth (like Jehova Witness mythos). This would not be an eternal condition, this New Jerusalem, if one is talking about form. God knows our sun will die at some point. The whole story is absurd if one reads it literally. Metaphorically it helps us approach Transcendental Reality - both our timeless spiritual nature and the nature of God - both of which are ungraspable by rationality (particularly if our essential nature is somehow God or God's 'Uncreated Energy' (as per Eastern Orthodox Christian theology).

Before the canonical Gospels, there were Gnostic gospels, and those Gnostics certainly did not intend their cosmological dramas to be taken literally. They knew full well that they were creating these dramas to 'suggest' the nature of Reality, including our place in it, and how to live our lives in the light of their understanding of Reality. Gospel writers were addressing multitudes of unsophisticated people who would take these myths literally. Educated individuals, even Celsus, a Pagan opponent of Christianity, was opposing this dumbing-down of the Perennial Philosophy as well as the Christian claims to uniqueness. Celsus understood the message while rejecting the Christian cultus.




i'm not sure who you are replying to but assuming this was to me, you know full well i am not a psychic or literalist christian.

''Everything Jesus does, is allowed or given to do by God is useless to us if it is literally about the man Jesus.''

you seem to have misunderstood me if you think that's what i'm saying. lets forget about jesus for a minute and talk about ramamana maharshi, buddha, etc. when asked about siddhis they confirm their literal existence. i dont understand why you keep going on about all the hoopla surrounding siddhis. i'm attempting to keep this to a simple discussion of whether or not siddhis are possible.


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5509453 - 04/12/06 07:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Markos,

The NT openly refutes your Gnostic notions. Gnostics were identified as false teachers and antichrists, read Paul and John, esp 1,2,3John.

Your teachings are heretical.


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: fivepointer]
    #5510036 - 04/12/06 09:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i luv a good UFC bout...

:popcorn:


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: fivepointer]
    #5510244 - 04/12/06 10:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Your teachings are heretical.




I'd rather be a heretic than to be wrong. Indoctrinal Christanity takes it up the ass of small children! :shocked:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: fivepointer]
    #5510407 - 04/12/06 10:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Paul was a Gnostic, he considered his gnosis to be true. The Gnostics themselves considered Paul to be a Gnostic. Read a scholarly work for a change: The Gnostic Paul by Princeton theologian and Gnosticism expert Dr. Elaine Pagels, who re-introduced this critically important conception of Christianity through her 1979 book The Gnostic Gospels.

What you are referring to are those Gnostics that Paul castigated for being 'puffed up,' i.e., ego-inflated. They, like many Westerners who attempt to digest Eastern thought (like Jnana Yoga, the Yoga of Knowledge [Gnosis]) have the unfortunate psychological tendency to identify their sense of personal selfhood (ego) with the indwelling Presence of God. This is a common problem with immature individuals in many different religions and disciplines including the then young cult of 'The Way.'

Since you obviously regard me as having no more knowledge in this area than you do, you feel that you are in a position to correct me. All you seem to have are the words that we all know from the canonical Bible, but you have not explored the breadth, depth and psycho-history which gave rise to those letters of Paul's. Moreover, the letters of John that you cite are forgeries as far as I am concerned, and like all the books that are included in the canon, only those which supported the political agenda of Constantine were admitted. The Johannine material is pure Hellenism - I could write a book on the mythic and Platonic aspects, not to mention the source of antisemitism, so don't get me started, and Just like the 'pastorals' of Paul, which completely contradict the egalitarian Paul of his legitimate letters, all things named Pauline are not truly Paul. You are free to interpret as you will, but it is beyond the point where you need to doubt the authority that you have placed on these selected writings.

Of course my interpretation is heretical. You are a total square, completely establishment with regard to the political agenda of ancient Christianity. We have debated this before and there is no longer a debate. Literalist reading of scripture is absurd, but worse, it is useless. It has no power to transform me and neither has this world been transformed by it except in the heinous ways of persecution, pogroms, unspeakable horrors. Literalist Christianity has not got much time left before it perishes. Fortunately, the living kernal will survive and it will eventually be seen as the truly catholic and universal perennial truth that it always was before evil men usurped the Name of Christ.

Good night to you fivepointer, good bye and may God bless you. I have no real desire to discuss mere repetition of Biblical lines without any effort on your part to explore whence they arose. Frankly, I am just tired of you using the word heretic:

"A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
adj.
[Middle English heretik, from Old French heretique, from Late Latin haereticus, from Greek hairetikos, able to choose, factious, from hairetos, chosen, from haireisthai, to choose" (Wikipedia)

I choose to interpret based on my own Experience of The Holy - not Rome's, not 'Orthodoxy' (such as it is) and not yours.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5511030 - 04/13/06 03:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
and according to buddha, ramana maharshi, etc these powers can actually be developed, they are not all simply "tall tales", corrrect?




These attainments naturally arise as a result of correct meidtative practices.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5511039 - 04/13/06 03:08 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yes. our ideas reguarding this topic don't differ, you just state things more accurately.


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OfflineTemptress
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5511042 - 04/13/06 03:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

and how do you know this?


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i have less ego than you do!


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5511069 - 04/13/06 03:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Deeply personal experience.


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Edited by Sinbad (04/13/06 03:32 AM)


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5511133 - 04/13/06 05:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Deeply personal experience.



Me too, bro. I don't know exactly what's possible, but there is alot of stuff that is possible simply because of your mind's understanding.

Now.. back to the topic.

I also had a similar question about Jesus when he was on the cross. He said, "God, why have you forsaken me?"

I don't understand this because he is supposed to trust God. But instead, he is questioning God's love for him. Isn't that herecy? If he trusted God, he would not question God's intentions. He would know that God loves him no matter what.


--------------------
Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5511183 - 04/13/06 05:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The people who rewrite the bible every now and then probably added that extra tit bit for dramatic effect. :lol:


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5513057 - 04/13/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

hobbitcg said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
Deeply personal experience.



Me too, bro. I don't know exactly what's possible, but there is alot of stuff that is possible simply because of your mind's understanding.

Now.. back to the topic.

I also had a similar question about Jesus when he was on the cross. He said, "God, why have you forsaken me?"

I don't understand this because he is supposed to trust God. But instead, he is questioning God's love for him. Isn't that herecy? If he trusted God, he would not question God's intentions. He would know that God loves him no matter what.




he was quoting Psalm 22 :

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him?
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him?
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn?
for he has done it.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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Offlineporcupine
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Male
Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 1,289
Loc: MI
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5513641 - 04/13/06 08:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
and according to buddha, ramana maharshi, etc these powers can actually be developed, they are not all simply "tall tales", corrrect?




These attainments naturally arise as a result of correct meidtative practices.




could you recommend a book or website that describes correct meditative practises? i want to start meditating.


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