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Physics is Fate
    #5330484 -

I'm sure I'm not the first to have thought of this, but I was on my way to the race track one day, and as we're driving past Pizza Hut, I notice a blue ball (maybe a raquetball) bounce into the street.  It got me thinging into cause and effect and I pictured it as physics.  If everything follows some set of physical rules (even if the formulas we have now in modern science aren't the true ones), then that means everything is governed by physics.  If you could picture the world in an instance of all its parts and their velocities and masses and so forth and set them into motion, the results should be predictable (although it's not something we'll ever be able to do).  So from the big bang (or whatever started it all), everything has been preordained by how it was in the beginning.  Me writing this post for instance, came about by physics, and everything else that will be and was is destined to happen because of how everything is at this very moment.

As a good example and the final argument for people to either agree or disagree with is: If everything at one instance was copied (think 2 identical universes) and then both were to carry on, should they not forever follow the same path?  Should a boy see a blue ball in the street in both universes?  :stoned:


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Psychedelic Jar Project

"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire

"Everything that I accepted as being true up to now I acquired from the senses or through the senses. However, I have occasionally found that they deceive me, and it is prudent never to trust those who have deceived us, even if only once." -Descartes

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: Solidcell]
    #5330488 -

of course you are correct in that you're not the first person to have thought of this but i'm still happy you made this thread. i think what some people will say is that some things are not set in stone but governed by probability as in quantum physics, so the 2 identical universes could diverge from eachother and end up differently.

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: Deviate]
    #5330489 -

It's not something that could ever be proven, but if you believe that there are laws that even govern random things in the world. then even those events are predestined.


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Psychedelic Jar Project

"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire

"Everything that I accepted as being true up to now I acquired from the senses or through the senses. However, I have occasionally found that they deceive me, and it is prudent never to trust those who have deceived us, even if only once." -Descartes

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: Solidcell]
    #5330502 -

every action has a reaction
whats in motion stays in motion
what goes up must come down

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: Solidcell]
    #5330505 -

but 2 identical physical states could still lead to different outcomes even if the laws that governed those outcomes were predetermined, unless you are including those laws in your definition of universe.

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: Solidcell]
    #5330518 -

What you are talking about is called "Determinism".

It is based on an old understanding of the universe and how it works. It grows naturally from Newtonian physics, but we now know Newton was only approximately right. The modern understanding shows that at the level of individual particles nothing is determined, only "probable". We don't see these effects in our macroscopic daily lives, but they do have a trickle-down effect - giving us individual freedom.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: Solidcell]
    #5330695 -

You should read "The Tao of Physics".


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: dblaney]
    #5330706 -

its too bad it is impossible to know what happened at that very first instant. we know pretty close, but because the picture is not complete we cant make any real assumptions about why the universe has clumped into molecules gas clouds then to galaxies to planets to DNA to life to the internet.

stephan hawking's 'a brief history of time' is a great book to read, there are some that are more in depth im sure but he covers a lot, and expect to re read it though out your life. unfortunately while it is still very readable with out much background (still informative) understanding the principals is nearly impossible. but its not like its a cookbook, if you dont get it, you're not alone. but it has some neat stats and gets you thinking. universe in a nut shell is good to, but its very theoretical.

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: Solidcell]
    #5330853 -

In some physics expirements an observer influences the results; and so that suggests things may not be as "destined" to happen as previously thought - they are more "uncertain."

Another interesting thing to think about is that black holes were completely invented. They were a mathematical byproduct of relativity used to balance it out. Nobody really liked them because they weren't real at that time. Now we've observed quite a few.


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: psyka]
    #5331395 -

well trendal beat me to it.

Yes, determinism is a by product of a Classical Physics Paradigm set up by Newtonian physics. Such a paradigm is mostly responsible for the godless secularization of the modern world as well.

And physicists have been determined to find a deterministic cause for quantum probablity since it's very inception. The idea violated every notion of classical physics and met with much resistence! But through countless experiments and the invalidation of Bells Theorem, things like quantum probability, entaglement, and other such concepts have prevailed. People have searched and searched for the "hidden variables" that govern probablity, but none have been found. That's not to say that they don't exist, but from our experience it is safe to say that the idea does not accurately describe our reality.

And thus, below the Planck scale there is still room for free will to subjugate hard-determinism!

I like to think of fate not in the sense that there is only one way that things CAN happen, but instead that there is only one way that things WILL happen, and afterwards those events dramatically effect what happens afterwards and the choices we make. But in no way does it DETERMINE what our choices will be, only what they COULD be.

Hence we manifest our own destiny by changing the past as the present transforms into the future.


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http://www.myspace.com/sarasotafnb
http://www.wcwtampa.com

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: dr0mni]
    #5331725 -

if the observer affects the experiment you say that contradicts determinism. But how do you know that it wasnt predetermined for the observer to be there and fuck up the results. Those who say determinism has been disproved only show their naivety. I'm not saying it is a fact only that it is still a very real possibility.


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: blaze2]
    #5331826 -

Well there wouldn't be a physical observer in any scenario, you'd just have to picture it. If there was an observer in one universe and not in the other, then they wouldn't be identical. Even if he was jusst standing on the sidewalk, the collision of air molecules with his own molecules would alter the wind and thus the movement of say some closeby leaves, which might affect how they later fall which.....

And none of that would ahve happened in the other universe, so that's why they need to be identical down to the smallest of particles (strings or what have you).


--------------------
Psychedelic Jar Project

"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire

"Everything that I accepted as being true up to now I acquired from the senses or through the senses. However, I have occasionally found that they deceive me, and it is prudent never to trust those who have deceived us, even if only once." -Descartes

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: Solidcell]
    #5333732 -

It's not just the observer that changes the outcome. It's totally random. They are actually working now to show how electrons appear in and out of existence in totally random behavior.


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Trust thyself.

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: justAkid]
    #5334903 -

yea justakid I've seen that stuff. Doesnt disprove determinism though. Just because we went and found something so small and crazy fast that we cant see, measure, or track it, doesnt mean it has to be random. It just means we arent good enough.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: justAkid]
    #5336013 -

justAkid said:
It's not just the observer that changes the outcome. It's totally random. They are actually working now to show how electrons appear in and out of existence in totally random behavior.


or at least APPEAR to appear in and out of existence. if thats how it REALLY IS, we dont/cant "know".


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: BleaK]
    #5336143 -

My thoughts are that cause and effect are the breaking down of a single process. I also don't believe that the world is governed by laws. For example if the earth spins in sequence with the ticking of my watch, it doesn't mean that the earth is governed by the watch.

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: BleaK]
    #5336179 -

Ever feel like you've got one foot nailed to the floor and the other can't stop bookin' it?

It's worse when you feel like both feet are nailed to the floor. *shudder* Yikes!


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: Sclorch]
    #5336396 -

I had a very similar thought about six months ago and posted it here http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...=1#Post4805773.

There was a good link to a Stephen Hawking mp3, but I don't think it works any more. In it, he made the point that things probably are predetermined, but since there is really no way over ever knowing exactly how things will turn out, it is as if things weren't determined at all.

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: robmac9090]
    #5342522 -

robmac9090 said:
I had a very similar thought about six months ago and posted it here http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...=1#Post4805773.

There was a good link to a Stephen Hawking mp3, but I don't think it works any more. In it, he made the point that things probably are predetermined, but since there is really no way over ever knowing exactly how things will turn out, it is as if things weren't determined at all.


That's called compatibilism.
It's like determinism's version of the christian right's "Intelligent Design".
I think Hawking likes to think he's stuck in a wheelchair for a reason.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Physics is Fate [Re: psyka]
    #5350880 -

psyka said:
Another interesting thing to think about is that black holes were completely invented. They were a mathematical byproduct of relativity used to balance it out. Nobody really liked them because they weren't real at that time. Now we've observed quite a few.


does anyone know anything more on this. I dont know much about anything, so its hard for me to grasp.

Was the scientific creation of black holes a guess based on what we know about physics, and we happend to be correct? Or are you suggesting that we created them?

I have an open opinion either way, and im curious about other views.


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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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