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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 13 years, 28 days
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1505083 - 04/29/03 03:58 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

To my mind, pre-determined means that everthing is a result of one thing; just the unfolding of this big-bang or whatever you want to call it, and there's nothing any of us can do to change the course of the universe - it was "burned" at the start, and is now just playing back. Any changes that make it to the surface were "bound" to happen.. Predictibility doesn't have much to do with it - I think this fits in with novelty and chaos quite well. My biggest mistake with this thread was saying that I am a determinist, when I'm actually a Strumpist


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (04/29/03 04:01 PM)

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Offlinequemo
dontknowitall

Registered: 12/19/02
Posts: 137
Loc: worldcitizen
Last seen: 20 years, 1 month
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1505090 - 04/29/03 04:01 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

but I'll add that the system isn't completely isolated. it can't be. gravity has no range so all the matter in the universe is affecting the paths of those balls. even if you repeated the experiment EXACTLY, the outcome would be different because the positions of the stars have changed (yes I'm serious here). So am I saying that the balls have free will? no. Am I saying that the balls moved randomly? no. I'm just saying it's completely unpredictable, even if it is pre-determined.




do you question the ability to measure predetermination, or predetermination itself?? :confused:

sorry if i misinterpretet... 

Edited by quemo (04/29/03 04:03 PM)

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: quemo]
    #1505235 - 04/29/03 04:34 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

doesnt the idea of determinism imply some sort of univeral intent and design?

and if so, then evertyhing that has happened in the history of the universe is ultimalty justifiable.....be it a genocide, or nuclear war.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 13 years, 28 days
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1505244 - 04/29/03 04:37 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

to me it implies something more like a fundamental "rule" or "equasion" off of which everything else has spun


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: quemo]
    #1505253 - 04/29/03 04:39 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

do you question the ability to measure predetermination, or predetermination itself??

both, it can't be measured, obviously... but I also question the notion of determinism itself. it seems like a cop-out to me. If things are predetermined, has everything been played out? where? how can a singularity (big bang) contain within it all the information of everything that happens? how can there be information contained in infinite density? it's impossible, there has to be... how shall I put this.. there must be granularity, texture, varying density for there to be information. And this only happened AFTER the big bang, when the universe had volume and varying density (not infinitely dense as in a singularity). Where did this information come from, it couldn't come from within the singularity. It just kind of happend, it unfolded that way... just like in an explosion there is a chaotic distribution of particles, but the paths of those particles aren't determined beforehand. The bomb doesn't contain the information of exactly how it's going to distribute shrapnel. There are an infinite number of interactions that determine it. So creation isn't a one time event that has set all events in motion, creation is constant. it arises out of completely unpredictable interactions between an infinite number of factors.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: Strumpling]
    #1505282 - 04/29/03 04:49 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I really like the way this thread is unfolding...  :smile:

I'll provide an interesting illustration...  Gimme a second to collect my thoughts...

          ...




--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: SWAY]
    #1505358 - 04/29/03 05:13 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I'll start with you,  S W A Y...

This is what you said: "So you say its half and half: 1/2 predetermined & 1/2 choice/freedom."

By saying what you just said, you've illustrated to me that you are thinking...  And the support by Strumpling further strenghtens the existance of thought...  because that IS what I was refering to [ please keep in mind...  there is fineprint... but it dosen't affect the unfolding in general ]...  I still stick by the CD analogy so that everyone can understand what it is that I'm talking about. [ Aside- I sometimes find that people talk too fancy; and although they talk well, they lose a significant portion of an important audience... That is a counterproductive move ].

When I talk, I try to make it so that most get something out of it...  I try to include everyone as best as I can...  I learned something from a wonderful physics teacher over a decade ago in High School...  It's the KISS principle: Keep It Simple Stupid !!!  :grin:  I love that line  ....

So.. getting back...  I'm not fully convinced that it is 1/2 and 1/2...  But I am suggesting that you have "play"....  Ummmmm......  Kind of like "Steering Ability"...
But I don't wish to get into that at this time...  I will talk about what I mean at a later date... What I am trying to do first, is develop a level of trust among myself and everyone else...  Right now, I am at the level of intrigue...  When I have found my friends, I will share.


 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 13 years, 28 days
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1505440 - 04/29/03 05:38 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

lol we're both getting much closer to eachother here :smile:

"there must be granularity, texture, varying density for there to be information." Are you sure? Lets continue.. "Where did this information come from, it couldn't come from within the singularity. It just kind of happend, it unfolded that way..." as if it were meant to be.

"The bomb doesn't contain the information of exactly how it's going to distribute shrapnel."

That's right - the bomb just contains the BOOM information, the probabilistic framework for the distribution of the shrapnel, kind of like the wave function of a particle. The bomb triggers a BOOM, which, according to this "wave function," will distribute shrapnel precisely where it would always go under those circumstances. The bang doesn't need the information if it is going to occur in a space that already has restrictions "rules" or other various properties in place. It has been theorized that the big bang itself could have been produced by colliding branes, in which case restrictions would have been determined by the properties of each brane and THEIR environment. On top of this, according to holography, information about what happens somewhere in spacetime can be encoded in its boundary.


"And this only happened AFTER the big bang, when the universe had volume and varying density (not infinitely dense as in a singularity)."

"So creation isn't a one time event that has set all events in motion, creation is constant. it arises out of completely unpredictable interactions between an infinite number of factors."

I understand what you mean, but everything that ever happens, to my mind, was caused by the big-bang (or whatever caused THAT, or whatever caused THAT, or...), because if you break one link in the chain, the beginning and end are no longer connected and cannot support eachother.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (04/29/03 05:46 PM)

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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 13 years, 28 days
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1505455 - 04/29/03 05:43 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

"But I am suggesting that you have 'play'.... Ummmmm...... Kind of like 'Steering Ability'..."

I've been convinced that if anything is the anti-determinist, it would be life itself. Maybe there is steering ability, but I would consider it being caught in a whirlpool - you can move around and swim this way and that way, but you're going under...

regardless, I'm still convinced its all an unfolding that none of us personally have any special control over any more than Flipper the Dolphin does.

I must add, your avatar rocks :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (04/29/03 05:47 PM)

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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1505620 - 04/29/03 06:29 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Ok...  What we're gonna "look" at involves the concept of Diffusion.

... Let me first begin by saying what is happening when someone calls  the event diffusion.... Cause maybe not all know what it is...

  Diffusion is the "movement of particles" from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration. Simply put, it means "stuff" tends to go where there is no "stuff" and tapers off as soon as a level of equillibruim becomes approached.

I hope that is as clear as mud.

Ok...  this is going to be an excercise in imagination as well.

Let's all congregate...  There now exists a place, for the purpose of this demonstration, completely outside of time ( so it dosen't matter when you see this thread... you will not be late for the demonstration ), where many parallel universes will be allowed to come together freely.

First of all, for those that have come to "see" the demonstration... congratulations! This excercise in "seeing with you mind's eye" will serve you well...

"See"  it as this story unfolds...    Now...

So here we are...  Look in front now! Do you see it? An emplty glass container...  Hovering there... In plain sight...  Now play along... this will be interesting.  You are free to see any shape of glass container... BUT, and there's sometimes a but, It must be clear enough to be "see through"!

Ok...  now fill it! Use a liquid; make it clear: WATER comes  to mind as a great illustrator for this demo.

Ready? 

Hey YOU...  Hurry and finish filling it...  Ya..well...  you shouldn't have chosen such a large container...  Look, the others didn't... They're ready...

Alright, When I say... REWIND...  I mean come back here <<<< and RE-READ>>>>

>>>> SUDDENLY, a drop of BLACK INK manifests itself above every container; it drops into the water....  LOOK.... look at how the ink spreads...  Ooooooohhhhh... AAAAAAaaaaHHHhhhhhh....  Trippy eh? See how it curls like clouds, how it spreads, it's going all over the place isn't it?  <<<<

Here's the analysis...  Water is a Dipole-Dipole substance, where part of an H2O molecule is slightly positive, and part slightly negative... So there's a particular arangement that the molecules take. In fact...  each of your water containers had a SET molecular arrangement as you made the decision to fill your containers. That means that there was varying charge throughout your containers at the molecular level.

The molecules of the Black Ink had charges also.  And each of the molecules were arranged as I had fashionned; it was the same  for all of you. 

As the ink molecules reached your water molecules, all of the charges interacted... Some attracted, some repelled...  This happened at specific angles and specific speeds.

Because it was all specific, by visualizing the exact arrangement of my Ink molecules, and YOUR water molecules, mathematically, you could calculate EXACTLY where each molecule was going to go.

... Once you set the "stage", and I introduced the "player", as the "play" was set into motion, the outcome was already predetermined; not just by me...  but by YOU too!

We just interacted.

Go ahead...  see it again, only this time do it slower...  "See" the molecues... You will notice...  it couldn't be any other way. (And don't shake the container...  that's cheating!)...  No outside influence allowed in this particular experiment, please.

OK....    REWIND !!!!!




Those of you who did it properly will have had a Deja-Vu.  :grin:

Now spring back to where you came from using your life-lines as bungee strings! [I hope you brought yours...  its the only way to safely get back to yourself if you travel to far places...  I figured some may have forgotten theirs... so you've been traced... and will be safely thrust back.]

Those of you who tried this HONESTLY, I made a small attachment to you... You were just in my mind...  And I keep track of who I let in.

    :grin:



 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: Strumpling]
    #1505666 - 04/29/03 06:41 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

So anything I do of my own free will is pre-determined?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 13 years, 28 days
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: Murex]
    #1506652 - 04/30/03 01:45 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not sure if I/we/you HAVE free-will, is what I'm saying.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: Strumpling]
    #1507854 - 04/30/03 01:50 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

So... the continuum of "choice"

<determinists------compatibilists-----"true free will" advocates>

Here are several different types of "true free will" advocates that are worth mentioning:
1. The libertarian types
2. The John Searle types
3. The Heteroabsolutist types

To explain them... I'd need more time than I'm willing to spend on a message board.
So pick up a philosophy of mind book and learn 1) and 2).
From there, I can use terminology shortcuts to explain 3).

That is, IF anyone really cares all that much.
But I'd be willing to do it if someone put forth that much effort in learning about this stuff.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 13 years, 28 days
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: Sclorch]
    #1508295 - 04/30/03 03:58 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

can you define compatibilists for me man?

You mean like when people say its kind of half and half, and that they don't contradict eachother, like a water molecule in a river, its determined that the molecule will make it to the ocean, but its path is unclear? something like that? lol sup with this "compatibilists" term?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: Strumpling]
    #1508649 - 04/30/03 05:52 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not sure if I/we/you HAVE free-will, is what I'm saying.

Then it doesn't matter then, does it. If everything was pre-determined, it sure fooled me.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: Murex]
    #1509107 - 04/30/03 08:40 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 13 years, 28 days
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: Sclorch]
    #1510034 - 05/01/03 12:54 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Excellent; thank you :smile:

Just as "good" as either-or, IMO


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Everything is predetermined [Re: Strumpling]
    #1510339 - 05/01/03 02:47 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I think I once posted a somewhat in-depth summary of my reasons for rejecting compatibilism. If I feel like going into it tomorrow... err, later on today, I will...

My one word rejection of compatibilism: copout.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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