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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Is there anything other than the physical universe?
    #3047373 - 08/25/04 04:24 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

We tend to separate the physical, mental, and spiritual worlds, but are they all the same? Aren't our thoughts basically chemical reactions in our brain? I've experienced what I would call a spiritual dimension on psychedelics, but then, that's still chemicals from a foreign substance reacting with chemicals in brain. Is there any non-physical aspect of reality? I'd like to believe there is, but I have not seen compelling evidence to suggest this.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3047472 - 08/25/04 05:25 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

the mental universe

and

the emotional universe

:lol:

hey, at least i'm trying.


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #3047488 - 08/25/04 05:41 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You are defining it SilverSoul, leave it as it is. The spiritual existance is just what it is. Some, well some are more spiritual then others.


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Evolution of Time.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3047609 - 08/25/04 07:57 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I personally feel that the physical experience - and living in it - is a spiritual experience. It's all spiritual.

And although all consciousness seems to rely on a chemical state - the subjective experience is catapulted through that.

The chemical state seems to provide some kind of interface.

Perhaps a bit like the way one sees a laser light in everyday 4d reality. When viewed from the side, you can it's length as it beams, yet it is pure light. Although our consciousness relies on a chemical state, and is physical, what we are able to see here is not. Of course the device that projects the laser is physical, but this is not my point.

When one enters a hyperdimensional experience, the chemical state in one's brain allows one to see things which are not present in the physical world. Perhps they too are somehow projected from matter (the soul(s) of matter?) and inherrently linked to matter as the Oneness that is all, who knows. At any rate these things a chemical state allows us to experience are not physically there in regular 4d reality.

Who knows......


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3047614 - 08/25/04 08:04 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Materialistically bound, traditional science assumes that anything that cannot be measured, tested in a laboratory, or probed by the five senses or their technological extensions simply doesn't exist. It's "not real." The consequence: all of reality has been collapsed into physical reality. Spiritual or what I would call nonphysical, dimensions of reality have been run out of town.

This clashes with the "perennial philosophy," that philosophical consensus spanning ages, religions, traditions, and cultures, which describes different but continuous dimensions of reality. These run from the most dense and least conscious -- what we'd call "matter" -- to the least dense and most conscious, which we'd call spiritual.

Interestingly enough, this extended, multidimensional model of reality is suggested by quantum theorists such as Jack Scarfetti who describes superluminal travel. Other dimensions of reality are used to explain travel that occurs faster than the speed of light -- the ultimate of speed limits. Or consider the work of the legendary physicist, David Bohm, with his explicate (physical) and implicate (non-physical) multidimensional model of reality.

This is no mere theory -- the 1982 Aspect Experiement in France demonstrated, that two once-connected quantum particles separated by vast distances remained somehow connected. If one particle was changed, the other changed -- instantly. Scientists don't know the mechanics of how this faster-than-the-speed-of-light travel can happen, though some theorists suggest that this connection takes place via doorways into higher dimensions.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Anonymous

Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3047616 - 08/25/04 08:05 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I'd have to say that thoughts and feelings are not physical. The chemical reactions in our body are physical, but these are only the manifestations of those thoughts and feelings. Imagine you're a researcher studying seratonin release in the brain and saying to your colleagues, "Oh so that's what happiness feels like." :lol: All you're seeing is the cause of the happiness, not the concept of 'happiness' itself.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3047636 - 08/25/04 08:31 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

you liked to believe there is this spiritual state which ingesting these psychoactives suggest, so i suppose the reason that despite your psychedelic experiences there is no compelling reason to believe in a spiritual reality is that you always come down off your spiritual high whens the drugs wear off.... perhaps you ought to seek out some new experiments, eh?


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3047704 - 08/25/04 09:27 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You decry scientific testing in the first paragraph, then point to that same methodology as possible evidence of other dimensions in your last. Try to be consistent. :thumbdown:


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (08/25/04 09:27 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3047710 - 08/25/04 09:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

These are linguistic devices describing various properties, not different dimensions. When you talk of a ball, do you speak of the shape world, the color world and the texture world?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: Swami]
    #3047774 - 08/25/04 09:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
These are linguistic devices describing various properties, not different dimensions. When you talk of a ball, do you speak of the shape world, the color world and the texture world?




Agreed.

The different "dimensions" mentioned are all part of the whole.

I actually think CJay got it right when he said:

"I personally feel that the physical experience - and living in it - is a spiritual experience. It's all spiritual."


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3047942 - 08/25/04 11:37 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Everything is "chemicals", but that doesn't make it any more known to us. People often use this idea to try and stay grounded in consensus reality. It is a symbol to describe basic compounds whereby everything we experience is composed of. But don't stop with the human word, think about the actual complexity of this system.

Physical and Spiritual are also no more than symbols. To me, physical deals directly with the senses whereas spiritual is within the self. Different people would probably describe them differently though.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3048137 - 08/25/04 12:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I would suggest reading the Bhagavad Gita, it talks about how causal, astral and physical existences all arise from the God consciousness, and the individual mind is a microcosm of the God consciousness.

The Dalai Lama says that although the mind is just chemical reactions it is actualy responding to the non-physical impulses of the consciousness which exists on a non-physical plane.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3048168 - 08/25/04 12:51 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I've always wondered about how our thoughts cause neurons to fire. It's a tough one, that.


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3048674 - 08/25/04 03:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Hey SS,

i really believe there are different levels to existence. Just because our dominant paradigm right now is science doesnt mean that science is automatically right, which is a huge mistake made my the many.

Sure, to the degree we know about neuroscience, many of your base operations can be correlated to brain state-activity, but all that is is a correlation. Many people think that when they see fMRI data that it means something, but thats not necessarily the case. a fMRI most of the time has a BOLD contrast (Blood-Oxygen-Level-Dependent) which contrasts areas using blood oxygenase vs areas that arent. There is something like a 6 second lag on blood travel time in the body which needs to be accounted for with a proper functional model while analyzing, and it also has a fundamentally flawed assumption, which is: If blood is moving to a part of your brain, that part (1) must be active, and (2) must be active in connection with the functional challenge.

After working with this data in a lab publishing papers, i can tell you that its boiled down to blobology. Administer a test while a subject is in the MR scanner, and then when you get to analysis, look for significant differences between the controls and the experiment groups in a model following what we expect.

If we see something, then we label the blobs of activity and say that they had a role in it.

Does that sound rock-solid? Hell no its not.

If one spends their entire life trapped in a materialistic (not madonna materlistic, i mean philosophical materialism) point of view, its very hard to shift your perspective to allow the other angles of life in. Oh, and there is no logical conclusion that ends in materialism also (ask a philosophy prof).

I think one of the greatest things ive heard was from Contact, where the god guy is asking ellie about her father. He asks her, "let me ask you Ellie, your father....did you love him?" (he died when she was young). TO which she responds "Yes, of course". He looks at her for a second or two, and says "Prove it"

Just because we cannot measure it with our tools, label it, and have it be commonly accepted, does not ever mean that it does not exist. That is the human ego.

--Krem


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"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: Kremlin]
    #3048693 - 08/25/04 03:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Science (the currently accepted paradigm) may not always be right, but the scientific method has never failed - ever!

No other way of looking at the physical world (that I am aware of) is even remotely as effective (if at all).


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: Swami]
    #3048718 - 08/25/04 03:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

True, but the majority of people think of the scientific model as something it is not. As well, science is good in describing consensus reality, whereas experience itself is the best description of personal realities. Sure delusional people may see things that aren't there consensually, but they are as real to them as the atom is to science.


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OfflineHahzist
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: deff]
    #3048872 - 08/25/04 04:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Let me ask you this..

If everything was physical/mechanical, then we would live in a universe that doesnt perceive its own existence. A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction. How can that offer answers as to how we acknowledge ourselves as existing. We attach meaning and symbols to the reactions that go on in our brain, but where do these things come from. What physical process can be explained for making these attachments?

If we are just a bunch of chemical reactions, then we wouldnt be so confused. We wouldnt have a concious that would ask these questions. We would just be matter, and nothing more.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: Hahzist]
    #3048987 - 08/25/04 04:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

If we are just a bunch of chemical reactions, then we wouldnt be so confused. We wouldnt have a concious that would ask these questions.

Based on what? Is this statement just pulled out of the air with nothing to back it?
Please tell us of your studies in bio-chemistry.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: Swami]
    #3049001 - 08/25/04 04:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

We are "chemical reactions". But keep in mind that this knowledge itself is too, and that it was "discovered" within the framework of chemical reactions. Clearly, using the idea that everything is just a chemical reaction undermines the marvelous wonder that is existence, and it is also no more than an illusionary stepping stone to hinder further thought into these matters.

And I agree with Swami, I don't see how we would "not be so confused" if we were just chemical reactions.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Is there anything other than the physical universe? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3049044 - 08/25/04 05:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Scientists have yet to find any source of consciousness within the brain. It may exist, but so far there seems to be no sign of the one thing that brings the whole physical world into being, the observer. Leads me to believe that consciousness is indeed independent of the mind and body.


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