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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once
    #5205868 -

http://today.reuters.com/sponsoredby/ame...C-EVOLUTION.xml

By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor

PARIS (Reuters) - The Roman Catholic Church has restated its support for evolution with an article praising a U.S. court decision that rejects the "intelligent design" theory as non-scientific.

The Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano said that teaching intelligent design -- which argues that life is so complex that it needed a supernatural creator -- alongside Darwin's theory of evolution would only cause confusion.

A court in the state of Pennsylvania last month barred a school from teaching intelligent design (ID), a blow to Christian conservatives who want it to be taught in biology classes along with the Darwinism they oppose.

The ID movement sometimes presents Catholicism, the world's largest Christian denomination, as an ally in its campaign. While the Church is socially conservative, it has a long theological tradition that rejects fundamentalist creationism.

"Intelligent design does not belong to science and there is no justification for the demand it be taught as a scientific theory alongside the Darwinian explanation," said the article in the Tuesday edition of the newspaper.

Evolution represents "the interpretative key of the history of life on Earth" and the debate in the United States was "polluted by political positions", wrote Fiorenzo Facchini, a professor of evolutionary biology at Italy's Bologna University.

"So the decision by the Pennsylvania judge seems correct."

EVOLUTION CONFUSION

Confusion about the Catholic view of evolution arose last year when both the newly elected Pope Benedict and his former student, Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn of Vienna, said humans were part of an intelligent project designed by God.

An article by Schoenborn in the New York Times in July seemed to signal a Church shift toward intelligent design because it played down a 1996 statement by Pope John Paul that evolution was "more than a hypothesis".

This triggered a wave of "Vatican rejects Darwin" headlines and attacks from scientists, Catholics among them, who argued that had been proved man evolved from lower beings.

Schoenborn later made it clear the Church accepted evolution as solid science but objected to the way some Darwinists concluded that it proved God did not exist and could "explain everything from the Big Bang to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony".

The Church, which has never rejected evolution, teaches that God created the world and the natural laws by which life developed. Even its best-known dissident, Swiss theologian Hans Kueng, echoed this in a recent book in Germany.

Schoenborn said he spoke up because he shared Benedict's concern, stated just before his election last April, that a "dictatorship of relativism" was trying to deny God's existence.

TENET OF FAITH

Pennsylvania Judge John Jones ruled that intelligent design was a version of creationism, the belief that God made the world in six days as told in the Bible, and thus could not be taught without violating a ban on teaching religion in public schools.

It was not science, despite claims by its backers, he said.

This literal reading of Genesis, the first book of the Bible, is a tenet of faith for evangelical Protestants, a group that has become politically influential in the United States.

Many U.S. Catholics may agree with evangelicals politically, but the Church does not share their theology on this point. Intelligent design has few supporters outside the United States.

While not an official document, the article in L'Osservatore Romano had to be vetted in advance to reflect Vatican thinking.

The Seattle-based Discovery Institute -- the main think tank of the ID movement -- said on its website that reading the Osservatore article that way amounted to an attempt "to put words in the Vatican's mouth".


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: Diploid]
    #5205933 -

Old news. This was posted here several months ago, but it is an encouraging sign in a world flooded with ignorance.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5205953 -

I don't give two shits about what the Church believes. However, I do think that they should at least mention Creationism in school when teaching about Darwinism. I'm sure they're old enough to figure out what they believe in, don't you?

Edited by lysergicide (01/21/06 12:48 PM)

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: lysergicide]
    #5205979 -

"Sure, in philosophy or a comparative religions class. NOT in science class.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5205987 -

Who cares if its religion... They don't need to cover a full-Bible interpretation on it. I think that people should be fed both sides of the story, and not only one side. If you feed them only one side, they expect it to be true.

But yes, after reading that post, you do have a point. Intelligent Design is not really a science.. It is a religious belief. However, Christianity is the majority when it comes to religion in America, and I feel they should at least mention it when talking about evolution.

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: lysergicide]
    #5205988 -

lysergicide said:
I don't give two shits about what the Church believes. However, I do think that they should teach Creationism in school alongside of Darwinism. I'm sure they're old enough to figure out what they believe in, don't you?


Hey, while we are at it, let us gleefully open the books on other beliefs that have just as much substantiation, and teach them to bright-eyed youngsters in science class. Ever hear the story of the Flying Spaghetti Monsters? I'm sure the impressionable youth will be apt to discern the difference in what to believe, don't you? :rolleyes:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5205993 -

fireworks_god said:
lysergicide said:
I don't give two shits about what the Church believes. However, I do think that they should teach Creationism in school alongside of Darwinism. I'm sure they're old enough to figure out what they believe in, don't you?


Hey, while we are at it, let us gleefully open the books on other beliefs that have just as much substantiation, and teach them to bright-eyed youngsters in science class. Ever hear the story of the Flying Spaghetti Monsters? I'm sure the impressionable youth will be apt to discern the difference in what to believe, don't you? :rolleyes:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


Hey, I'm just trying to say that as the major American religion, it deserves a least a mention in the class. I'm not trying to turn a Science class into a religion class or anything.

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5205995 -

I guess that the Catholic Church could give a rat's ass about Evolution. They are using it as a way to defend and counter attack the Protestant Religious Right that is always out to get them. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: Icelander]
    #5206000 -

I don't know what to believe about evolution or where we come from... I really don't care. All I care about is now. Now is the time. :smile:

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: lysergicide]
    #5206017 -

"All I care about is now. Now is the time"
Then why are you wasting your time posting this?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: lysergicide]
    #5206059 -

lysergicide said:
I don't know what to believe about evolution or where we come from... I really don't care. All I care about is now. Now is the time. :smile:


Well you're right. This is it. I'm posting this because this it. This is my reality. Posting.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5206063 -

I'm not discussing evolution or creationism, I'm saying that if you want to teach evolution in schools, you should at least mention creationism to the kids considering it's one of the more popular ideas and part of the Christian religion, which happens to be the country's major religion. It's not like i'm trying to figure out where we've come from or anything.

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: Icelander]
    #5206068 -

Icelander said:
lysergicide said:
I don't know what to believe about evolution or where we come from... I really don't care. All I care about is now. Now is the time. :smile:


Well you're right. This is it. I'm posting this because this it. This is my reality. Posting.


Well, really. How does knowing the past help serve us? Well, maybe for some people, considering that knowledge of such things would or could be vital information to somebodys religious practice. But it doesn't really serve me much.

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: lysergicide]
    #5206070 -

lysergicide said:
Hey, I'm just trying to say that as the major American religion, it deserves a least a mention in the class. I'm not trying to turn a Science class into a religion class or anything.


Creationism is the major American religion? :wtf:

The fact that it is a religious concept that is not supported by absolutely any scientific basis is exactly why it does not deserve a mention in the class. The entire idea of Science class, and that of the Constitution of the United States, makes it quite clear that the "theory" has no right to be mentioned in a public school.

Hey, if you have any crazy notions that have no basis in reality, feel free to indoctrinate your or others children with them when they aren't in a setting that your government proclaims is to be seperate from religion, and also in a setting thats purpose is to teach science-based ideas. :thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5206082 -

fireworks_god said:
lysergicide said:
Hey, I'm just trying to say that as the major American religion, it deserves a least a mention in the class. I'm not trying to turn a Science class into a religion class or anything.


Creationism is the major American religion? :wtf:

The fact that it is a religious concept that is not supported by absolutely any scientific basis is exactly why it does not deserve a mention in the class. The entire idea of Science class, and that of the Constitution of the United States, makes it quite clear that the "theory" has no right to be mentioned in a public school.

Hey, if you have any crazy notions that have no basis in reality, feel free to indoctrinate your or others children with them when they aren't in a setting that your government proclaims is to be seperate from religion, and also in a setting thats purpose is to teach science-based ideas. :thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


Creationism [obviously] is a major concept in Christian belief. Christianity is the religion that the majority of the people in the States practice, you know that, right?

I'm not trying to say I support it or anything. But as my opinion, I feel that creationism could be at least mentioned when talking about evolution. I'm not pushing for it to be fully taught in schools - hell, no way. But considering the timeline that Darwin was in and how he was attacked & criticised by the Church after fielding his research, they should at least mention it.

And yes, you do have a point. It has absolutley no scientific background behind it. But I'm just trying to say that it should be MENTIONED, not taught... Thats my opinion, and I'm not going to try and get into any big argument or anything, because nothing good will come out of it. So I'm stopping here.

But it has been a nice discussion with you guys.  :thumbup:

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: lysergicide]
    #5206103 -

lysergicide said:
Creationism [obviously] is a major concept in Christian belief. Christianity is the religion that the majority of the people in the States practice, you know that, right?


I'm familiar with the unfortunate fact. However, you stated [obviously] that Creationism itself is the major religion in the United States.

Quote:
Hey, I'm just trying to say that as the major American religion, it deserves a least a mention in the class.


Either that, or perhaps you stated that Christianity itself, as the major American religion, deserves to be mentioned in the class. :smirk:

Define ambiguity. :grin:

Quote:
IBut considering the timeline that Darwin was in and how he was attacked & criticised by the Church after fielding his research, they should at least mention it.


It doesn't matter who Darwin is, the timeline he was in, or who attacked and criticized him. None of this pertains to the concept of evolution itself, and its validity within a scientific framework.

Does every irrational group of nuts who, when a valid point is raised that is supported by evidence, deserve to have their unsubstantiated belief mentioned because they criticized the man who raised the valid point? Its my opinion that such a notion clearly does not make sense. :shocked:

Science is science, and the morons who can't comprehend it have no right to be referred to simply because they voiced their ignorance. There is simply no context within which creationism deserves to be mentioned in a science class alongside a valid scientific theory such as evolution.

Quote:
And yes, you do have a point. It has absolutley no scientific background behind it. But I'm just trying to say that it should be MENTIONED, not taught...


Which is exactly why my personal theory on the beginning of life on this planet that I have borrowed from a popular television series which states that James Woods traveled back through time and jacked off in the primordial ooze has just as much right to be MENTIONED, not taught, alongside that of evolution. :lol: No difference.

Quote:
Thats my opinion, and I'm not going to try and get into any big argument or anything, because nothing good will come out of it. So I'm stopping here.


Obviously nothing will come out of it when one will not allow their viewpoints to be scrutinized. If others realize that your opinion that has been expressed does not have any actual justification, then something good will come of this.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5206121 -

fireworks_god said:
Which is exactly why my personal theory on the beginning of life on this planet that I have borrowed from a popular television series which states that James Woods traveled back through time and jacked off in the primordial ooze has just as much right to be MENTIONED, not taught, alongside that of evolution. :lol: No difference.


Hmm, you know, that's not such a bad idea. I wouldn't so much mind creationism being mentioned if that theory of yours were given equal time.  :grin:

Start off briefly with creationism, then James Woods jerkin' it, then go seriously into evolution. I think it'd work wonders.

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5206128 -

Alright, so maybe you're right... But you don't have to rub it in with sarcastic remarks about James Woods and about me stating that "Creationism is the major religion in America," where I plainly stated:

"...considering it's one of the more popular ideas and part of the Christian religion, which happens to be the country's major religion."

Nice talking to you.

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5206148 -

Why can't people just get along...  :confused:

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Re: The Catholic Church Gets It Right For Once [Re: lysergicide]
    #5206187 -

lysergicide said:
Why can't people just get along...  :confused:


I do not understand how my attempts to have a philosophical discussion is an example of "people not getting along". :confused: Is it because I am persistent in reaching a conclusion? The purpose of this forum is to discourse with discussion and debate of philosophical/spiritual ideas, after all. If it bothers you that others will seek to challenge and dispute your ideas, then click the Forum Index and follow through to the Mysticism, Religion, and the Paranormal forum, where you are free to state whatever opinions you have and it is agansit the rules for anyone to discuss or debate them.

Otherwise, realize that people will question the foundation of "your opinion" and will not accept its justification simply because it is your opinion.


lysergicide said:
Alright, so maybe you're right... But you don't have to rub it in with sarcastic remarks about James Woods


I have not rubbed anything in. I have raised valid points. My reference to James Woods ejaculating in the primoridal ooze was not sarcasm, it was my humorous creation of a theory to serve a specific purpose. Any outrageous and obviously false concept has just as much right to be mentioned alongside evolution if Creationism does, as none of these concepts have any validated basis in reality. My usage of a literary device illustrates my point brightly.


Quote:
and about me stating that "Creationism is the major religion in America,"

where I plainly stated:

"...considering it's one of the more popular ideas and part of the Christian religion, which happens to be the country's major religion."



I realize what you plainly stated, but you also plainly stated that "as the major American religion, it deserves at least a mention in the class", referring to Creationism. Creationism is not a religion. If the fact that I have directly addressed the fact that you made this statement bothers you, either do not accidentally make the statement or announce that it was made in error. I have full right to question your statements as it pertains to the discussion of the ideas and the topic at hand, and your apparent perception of myself as being out of line by doing so lies at odds with the purposes and intents of this forum. :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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