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Offlinefivepointer
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Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One?
    #5626051 - 05/13/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

This article is from:
http://acts413.org/religions/catholic/jesus.htm
by Ray Kane
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In the many years since I became saved by the grace of God
and left the Catholic church, I have had an opportunity to talk
to many Catholics about their faith. The one thing I noticed that
they all had in common, without them ever realizing it, is that
they all believe in a different Jesus than the Jesus of the
Bible. Now wait a minute! you say. Our Jesus is the
Jesus of the Bible. And to you I respond: Oh really? The Jesus of
the Bible condemned many of the things that Catholicism approves
of and teaches. Here are just a few examples for you to
consider...

The Jesus of the Bible condemns idol worship:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,
or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven
above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is
in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to
them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous
God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto
the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
[Exodus 20:4-5]

The Jesus of the Bible only needed to be sacrificed once, not every day during mass:

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express
image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his
power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on
the right hand of the Majesty on high. [Hebrews 1:3]

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for
sins for ever
, sat down on the right hand of God.[Hebrews 10:12]

The Jesus of the Bible is the head of the church in heaven and on earth, not the pope:

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the
dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might,
and dominion,and every name that is named, not only in this world,
but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things
under his feet, and gave him to be the head over
all
thingsto the church. [Ephesians 1:20-22]

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ
is the head of the church
: and he is the saviour of the
body. [Eph 5:23]

The Jesus of the Bible is not a wafer made with human hands:

Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but
almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned
away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made
with hands.
[Acts 19:26]

The Jesus of the Bible does not need and does not want any help from his
earthly mother or dead saints to hear a person's prayers and petitions:


For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. [1 Timothy 2:5]

My little children, these things write I unto you, that
ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the
Father, Jesus Christ
the righteous [1John 2:1]

The Jesus of the Bible had a mother who was a sinner who needed a Savior:

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my
spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. [Luke
1:46-47]

The Jesus of the Bible had literal brothers and sisters:

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the
brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not
his sisters here with us
? And they were offended at him. But
Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his
own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
[Mark 6:3-4]

But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the
Lord's brother
. [Galatians 1:19]

While he yet talked to the people, behold, his
mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak
with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy
brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee
. But he
answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and
who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his
disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
[Matthew 12:46-49]

The Jesus of the Bible condemned menfor trying to appear holy
by wearing religious costumes:


Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long
robes
, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest
seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts
[Luke 20:24]

The Jesus of the Bible is not pleased
with people praying repetitious prayers like the Rosary:


But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the
heathen
do: for they think that they shall be
heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto
them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before
ye ask him. [Matthew 6:7-8]

The Jesus of the Bible does not
forbid church leaders from being married:


A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one
wife
, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to
hospitality, apt to teach [1 Timothy 3:2]

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter
times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing
spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy;
having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to
marry
, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God
hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which
believe and know the truth. [1 Timothy 4:1-3]

The Jesus of the Bible is capable of
saving men's souls without the help of Catholic priests and
without anyone's help, including yours:


... he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings
and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst
pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said
he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first,
that he may establish the second. By the which will we are
sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once
for
all
. And every priest standeth daily ministering and
offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take
away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for
sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; [Hebrews
10:8-12]

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the
uttermost
that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to
make intercession for them. [Hebrews 7:25]

The Jesus of the Bible did not suffer
and die on Calvary just to enable all Catholics or
all people to be saved but rather to pay a complete and terrible
ransom for all the sins of all of His people:


And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his
name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

[Matthew 1:21] ... Even as the Son of man came not to be
ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a
ransom for many
. [Matthew 20:28] ... But he was
wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our
iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with
his stripes we are healed
. [Isaiah 53:5]

The Jesus of the Bible did not come
to build the Roman Catholic church. He came to die for ungodly,
hell-deserving, hopelessly lost sinners who will end up in hell
if Christ does not save them:


But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him
that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for
righteousness. [Romans 4:5]

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ
died for the ungodly
. [Romans 5:6]

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the
earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
was only evil continually. [Genesis 6:5]

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately
wicked: who can know it? [Jeremiah 17:9]

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our
righteousnesses are as filthy rags
; and we all do fade as a
leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us
away. [Isaiah 64:6]

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that
which was lost
. [Luke 19:10]

The Jesus of the Bible setup a Church
of saved sinners united by and under the authority of the Holy
Spirit, not a church united by human tradition or under the
authority of a human hierarchy in Rome:


For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,
whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and
have been all made to drink into one Spirit. [1 Corinthians
12:13]

For through him we both have access by one Spirit
unto the Father
. [Ephesians 2:18]

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom
the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said
unto you. [John 14:26]

The Jesus of the Bible does not care
if your religion satisfies you. It must satisfy Him and His
demand for perfection:


Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father
which is in heaven is perfect. [Matthew 5:48]

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend
in one point, he is guilty of all. [James 2:10]

Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. [1Peter 1:16]

The Jesus of the Bible credits the
account of guilty sinners with His own righteousness so that they
are prepared to meet God on Judgment Day:


And be found in him, not having mine own
righteousness
, which is of the law, but that which is through
the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by
faith [Philippians 3:9]


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5626071 - 05/13/06 08:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What a hateful religion you adhere to. Shame on you. :thumbdown: :rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: Icelander]
    #5626084 - 05/13/06 08:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Just wondering. Did you by any chance grow up in a Catholic neighbor hood and get pummeled daily by them? Or are you jealous because they got more members?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5626089 - 05/13/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Good Lord, get a life. Only Gnostics post here


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: Basilides]
    #5626116 - 05/13/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If only that were true. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5626486 - 05/13/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Which Jesus? The Catholic One, the Protestant Ones, or the Fightin Jesus?


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5627151 - 05/14/06 12:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You remind me of a missionary. :grin:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: dblaney]
    #5627509 - 05/14/06 04:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why do any of you bother responding even, since you are not christians, it doesn't concern you. You don't believe in THIS kind of Jesus, nor the kind that is worshiped today.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5627526 - 05/14/06 05:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It's folks like fivepointer that are hijacking the teachings of Jesus.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: Basilides]
    #5627585 - 05/14/06 07:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

A Bible is a book that consists of unprovable statements, so you have no real way of knowing which parts are true and which are not.
If you take certain parts for truth and reject other parts, you are stabing your own belief in the back because you are basically saying:
"my beliefs come from a book in which some pages are true and some are not, and I have no way of knowing which pages are these"
And that simply makes no sense.
Either you take it as it is or leave it, unless of course you have other sources of knowledge so that you can confirm some of those events and teachnings, but you don't really.
All you can really do is take a look at other books like Koran, which mostly confirm each other.

Modern christianity works like this:
they say: ok, we believe the part from Mathew 1:10 to 5:10 is true, the other is untrue, because it FEELS untrue to us.
Either you take it all to be truth, or just drop it, because it makes no sense to use your own logic to figure out which of it is true.
Why it makes no sense? Because modern christians have no information about their core teachings other than that which is in those books.
And logic without the right premises leads away from truth, while logic with all the premises leads to truth.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5627643 - 05/14/06 08:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Why do any of you bother responding even, since you are not christians, it doesn't concern you. You don't believe in THIS kind of Jesus, nor the kind that is worshiped today.




He didn't say he only wanted response from Christians. Does that mean I can't respond to anything about our president if I'm not a Republican or about Buddhism if I'm not a Buddhist? Ridiculous!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: Icelander]
    #5627716 - 05/14/06 09:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Why do any of you bother responding even, since you are not christians, it doesn't concern you. You don't believe in THIS kind of Jesus, nor the kind that is worshiped today.




He didn't say he only wanted response from Christians. Does that mean I can't respond to anything about our president if I'm not a Republican or about Buddhism if I'm not a Buddhist? Ridiculous!




What I'm saying is what difference does it make to you?
It would be like me arguing who is the true witchdoctor of some african tribe, any of them can be true because I don't believe in their magic powers, so it makes no difference.

The original point is that current widespread image of Christ is not consistant with his OWN words.
Modern church takes these texts, repackes them, advertises them and sells them in a commercial form, that is acceptable to the modern man.
It does so by tabooing certain parts which would make a modern conformist person disturbed, and speaks out loud the parts which everyone wants to hear.
It's not the point wheather all of this is true or not, maybe it's all a fairytale, maybe its the literal truth, that's not the point, the point is that it is an idea that has been edited and spliced, like a movie by the Roman church over 2000 years. And by editing I don't mean tampering with the text, there is really no need for that, the manipulation comes from the fact that christians don't read the Bible, as much as they listen to priest reading it. And priests read to them what they want them to hear. There are parts of the Bible which a modern christian never even heard about, because they aren't as marketable by the church.
A lot of the things that modern Catholics take for granted, like all these wierd rituals, come from medieval distortions of aincient beliefs, and most christians don't even know that, they think the Jesus himself toled everyone to go to mass on sunday, which is ridiculous


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5627823 - 05/14/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What I'm saying is what difference does it make to you?

It doesn't matter. I come here for the fun of debate. I can chime in on anything posted and for my own reasons. It's a public forum.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5628009 - 05/14/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why do any of you bother responding even, since you are not christians, it doesn't concern you. You don't believe in THIS kind of Jesus, nor the kind that is worshiped today.

Yeah, the whole purpose of this board is to debate this sort of thing. While I may agree with some of the points the article raises, something about its presentation irks me. It's as though there is something that must be proved, either to the original poster or to us. A metaphorical soapbox.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: dblaney]
    #5628111 - 05/14/06 11:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Why do any of you bother responding even, since you are not christians, it doesn't concern you. You don't believe in THIS kind of Jesus, nor the kind that is worshiped today.

Yeah, the whole purpose of this board is to debate this sort of thing. While I may agree with some of the points the article raises, something about its presentation irks me. It's as though there is something that must be proved, either to the original poster or to us. A metaphorical soapbox.




well obviously there is much tension here in the original poster, a tension which would not be there in the first place had the poster trully been on gods side, but the point is well made I think. Catholic teachnigs are sometimes quite contradictory to the book they most often quote, not just them a lot of other religions too.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5628182 - 05/14/06 11:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You're our kind of Christian fivepointer! We all about givin' what-for to all "hell-deserving, hopelessly lost sinners who will end up in hell." It's our God-appointed mission to Judge all the spiritually, morally and genetically degenerate excuses fer yoomin' bein's! That's why we're a-wardin' you an honorary membership in the KKK. You think exactly the way WE do Brother fivepointer!


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5628195 - 05/14/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Why do any of you bother responding even, since you are not christians, it doesn't concern you. You don't believe in THIS kind of Jesus, nor the kind that is worshiped today.




He didn't say he only wanted response from Christians. Does that mean I can't respond to anything about our president if I'm not a Republican or about Buddhism if I'm not a Buddhist? Ridiculous!




What I'm saying is what difference does it make to you?
It would be like me arguing who is the true witchdoctor of some african tribe, any of them can be true because I don't believe in their magic powers, so it makes no difference.

The original point is that current widespread image of Christ is not consistant with his OWN words.
Modern church takes these texts, repackes them, advertises them and sells them in a commercial form, that is acceptable to the modern man.
It does so by tabooing certain parts which would make a modern conformist person disturbed, and speaks out loud the parts which everyone wants to hear.
It's not the point wheather all of this is true or not, maybe it's all a fairytale, maybe its the literal truth, that's not the point, the point is that it is an idea that has been edited and spliced, like a movie by the Roman church over 2000 years. And by editing I don't mean tampering with the text, there is really no need for that, the manipulation comes from the fact that christians don't read the Bible, as much as they listen to priest reading it. And priests read to them what they want them to hear. There are parts of the Bible which a modern christian never even heard about, because they aren't as marketable by the church.
A lot of the things that modern Catholics take for granted, like all these wierd rituals, come from medieval distortions of aincient beliefs, and most christians don't even know that, they think the Jesus himself toled everyone to go to mass on sunday, which is ridiculous




If you are Christian then you must believe in their magic powers, they are spoken of in the bible...


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5628839 - 05/14/06 03:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

First of all I'm not a christian, and second christian priests don't have magic powers, and neither do prophets, at least not then.
Nowdays, a christian priest has smae amount of magic power as we all do, he can change chanels with a remote, and he can talk to another priest who is 1000km away


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/14/06 03:42 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5628902 - 05/14/06 03:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
If you are Christian then you must believe in their magic powers, they are spoken of in the bible...




Incorrect. The title "Christian" encompasses a considerable amount of territory. Taking into consideration the thousands of different organizations and churches that each hold a different viewpoint of Christianity, it is obvious that considering oneself to be a Christian does not mean that one must believe in any particular thing.

Ultimately, its an if/then statement that isn't very reasonable. :wink:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5628931 - 05/14/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
If you are Christian then you must believe in their magic powers, they are spoken of in the bible...




Incorrect. The title "Christian" encompasses a considerable amount of territory. Taking into consideration the thousands of different organizations and churches that each hold a different viewpoint of Christianity, it is obvious that considering oneself to be a Christian does not mean that one must believe in any particular thing.

Ultimately, its an if/then statement that isn't very reasonable. :wink:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




If you believe the Bible word for word, then you must believe in magic and witchcraft.


Is that better?


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5628994 - 05/14/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
If you believe the Bible word for word, then you must believe in magic and witchcraft.

Is that better?




To some extend that is true, at least in the way you mean it, though those words are not used for powers of god in christian terminology, and humans don't have any kind of magic powers in the Bible.
And magic is a relative thing, to a kid, playing tricks with coins is magic, and to a medieval man, electricity is pure magic.
You DO believe in electricity, don't you? If you do, then you too believe in what is magic to someone.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5629011 - 05/14/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Damn evil electricians!  :mob:



:grin:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5629061 - 05/14/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
Damn evil electricians!  :mob:



:grin:




Not all magic is evil, it's evil if you are afraid of it. I bet Joan of Arc would consider a photo camera evil because she would think your  soul is trapped in some kind of Ektachrome hell.

Even if god did perform all those miracles, they are not deeds of magic by themselfs, but to man, who simply can't understand them.
To this god, they would be his natural abilities, or maybe even technology, who knows.

In my dictionary, magic is a word for actions of unknown procedure.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5629072 - 05/14/06 04:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I agree, "magic is a word for actions of unknown procedure. " And I don't think it's evil, I was just joking... you know, witch hunt...


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5629112 - 05/14/06 04:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
I agree, "magic is a word for actions of unknown procedure. " And I don't think it's evil, I was just joking... you know, witch hunt...




Of course I know you were joking, I was just using the oportunity to talk about why some people considered magic evil


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5631613 - 05/15/06 08:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not even going to dignify this post with a counterargument.  All I'm going to say is :whatever:


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5631696 - 05/15/06 08:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

LOL!!!


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5631722 - 05/15/06 09:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

" for I the LORD thy God am a jealous
God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto
the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
[Exodus 20:4-5]
"

Who in their right mind would want to worship such a being?  :crazy:


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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5631743 - 05/15/06 09:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

a religion is fucked as soon as you place "your" god or savior above all others.

I beleave that you may use Jesus as an image of what is "right" because he stoof for many good things. But to say he is the only one that was right is a bunch of bull shit.

I like this statement!

"When the light and love become one, you will know the way to heal hearts and ease pain. Go forth and spread my name. I am Jazu (Jesus). I come to you to ask you to help heal the world. Your Mother, the earth, is crying and she needs your help. Pray, pray often and ask the collective consciousness of the peoples of the world to heal her heart. She is dying and your prayer will help her heal. All will be revealed soon. I am the light, the way, hear what I say and pray now. Ask for forgiveness of the destruction of the world and heal her pain."


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: Sinbad]
    #5631864 - 05/15/06 10:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
" for I the LORD thy God am a jealous
God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto
the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
[Exodus 20:4-5]
"

Who in their right mind would want to worship such a being?  :crazy:




Those who believe he is the only one in existance


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5633518 - 05/15/06 04:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)






Those who believe he is the only one in existance




Right, and the tribal, mountain god YHVH/Jehova later on was theologized into the ONE God of Hebrew monotheism, but originally, the Name Elohim was used, and Elohim has both masculine and feminine, as well as plurality in it. A pluralistic sense of the ONE God was inherent in this Name, but monotheistic religions manage to include a Polytheistic aspect anyway by way of hierarchies of celestial beings (seraphim, cherubim, thrones, powers, dominion/dominations, principalities, archangels, angels in the Christian tradition alone). Add to this God's Asherah - His Eternal Consort - Wisdom, and we have the paired Deity, who together make the ONE GOd, just as in His image "male and female created He them."

Of course, once again the heinous, misogynistic 'church fathers' did away with the egalitarian treatment of women as they returned to the purely patriarchal notion of Hebrew thought. The Ark of the Covenant had two Cherubim facing one another and Solomon's Temple was said to house 30 foot long versions of the same - when YHVH's Consort was acknowledged. The Trinitarian formula in Christian theology ought to be 'Father-Son-Holy Mother. The dove which came to symbolize the Holy Spirit (God is Holy and Spirit, so the Name HS is vague and detracting) was a symbol for the Heavenly Aphrodite or Venus - an aspect of love (not necessarily Eros, which is yet another personification of love and has nothing to do with the erotic. Plato's Eros is yearning for the 'Other,' for God as well as another human). The Eternal Feminine, the Great Goddess is as much a symbol of God as any masculine symbols like 'Father,' Son,' 'King.' The 'Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky' is but one biased anthropomorphization of THE "Ground of Being."

Humans attribute much to YHVH, to the Father, to Allah, but theologically speaking, the Transcendental Unmanifest is just that - Unmanifest. "Jealousy" is a personal attribute and clearly a human projection. As the mythic Semele was incinerated by Zeus in His 'true nature,' and like Moses placed in a cleft of rock so that he could only see God's "hind portion," we cannot Know God as God Knows God, because "no man can see the face of God and live." Does this mean that God has a literal face? No. No human ego can maintain its relative, impermanent form in the full Presence of the "Uncreated Energy" which is God. We humans can Know God in God's 'Lesser Countanence' which is Christ. We can enter into Christ and Christ can enter into us. We can crucify our egos so that only Christ remains of us, and Christ can see God face-to-face. [Sorry for the ramble, it was unintended  :blush:]



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5633633 - 05/15/06 04:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, all of this stands if you think of god as some kind of etheral energy, the stuff that universes are made from.

You say humans always attribute things to god, well this couldn't be turer, in fact, your vision of god, like any other, is just another projection of your own logic and ideas into this word of God.

To you it is illogical that "god" can be in one place at one time, can be seen or can land in a Jewish temple in a cloud.
But that is just one way of seeing it, clearly you believe it is the intelligent way of seeing it, but human intelligence and logic are really irrelevant when it comes to such concepts as god, because there are not premises to work with.

Consider that EVERY description of something higher by something lower is flawed, even yours. It is like trying to describe a 30 digit number with 3 digits.

It is nowhere really specified what god is in the Bible and similar books, but people seem to have hijacked the word and applied logic to it, to something that they don't even know what it is.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5633738 - 05/15/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I do not see how you could extrapolate what you said from my post! Nowhere did I profess a belief in, or posit something about God existing in a 'place.' Neither did I suggest any "vision of God." These are YOUR projections onto me  :laugh: ! I was quoting or paraphrasing Biblical or mythic material. I just got done writing that God, qua God cannot be Known by human egos, and you misunderstood everything I was saying!

The only thing that I did by my unintentional ramble was to express a method for Knowing God - Gnostic Christian fashion. That method is by becoming Christ - a process called theosis in Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Then, as the human ego diminishes (is 'crucified'), the center of human awareness shifts from ego to Divine Self (Christ). As Paul put it "I live, yet not I; Christ liveth in me." Then God Realizes God in the human being (the Biblical "clay vessel"). Like a Buddhist, we then Realize our inherent emptiness. Only the Real is Real. Any God that I could describe would be a construct, so what ARE you going on about?  :confused:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5633868 - 05/15/06 05:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Oh, now you got me confused, nevermind


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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