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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church
    #7160224 - 07/11/07 12:46 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Like I've said before, people who believe in things not in evidence, whether they do it violently or not, are cut from the same cloth.

Just like the Pope, terrorists think THEIR church is the only true church. The only difference is that the church doesn't use violence to punish non-believers any more.

--

Pope defines 'true church'

Web Posted: 07/11/2007 10:41 AM CDT

J. Michael Parker and Abe Levy
Express-News

The Vatican reiterated Tuesday that the Catholic Church is the one true church established by Jesus Christ and that other Christian denominations are defective, although they have elements of truth and sanctity.

In a brief document, "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine of the Church," the Vatican's doctrinal office, with Pope Benedict XVI's approval, reiterated controversial assertions made in its 2000 document, "Dominus Iesus," that Christian denominations that do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles — can't properly be called churches.

Protestant leaders said the suggestion that non-Catholic religions were "wounded" since they do not recognize the primacy of the pope was offensive and would hurt inter-denominational dialogue fostered by the late Pope John Paul II.

"The remarks of Pope Benedict XVI are disappointing. They represent a full retreat from the positions of Pope John Paul and Vatican II, which emphasized ecumenical outreach," said the Rev. John Hagee, pastor of the Cornerstone Church. "The concept that the Roman Catholic Church is the only church is false and has no basis in sacred Scripture."

But the Rev. Buckner Fanning, retired pastor of Trinity Baptist Church, said he's not alarmed by the document's language and said doctrinal differences between Christian denominations aren't as important as proclaiming the message of Jesus' death and resurrection.

"That message transcends the messengers. This is not going to reverse the wonderful ecumenical relations we've had in San Antonio. I've always had good relations with the Catholic community."

The document, which does not set any new doctrinal policies, comes within days of the pope's relaxing restrictions on the celebration of the Tridentine Latin Mass according to the rite approved by Pope John XXIII in 1962 during Vatican II.

That move has offended some Jews, who have expressed concern that prayers from the old Good Friday liturgy that used the term "perfidious Jews" might be revived, but Catholic sources said those prayers already had been removed before the 1962 rite was approved.

Archbishop José Gomez said the document merely affirms teachings already in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the documents of the Second Vatican Council.

"It's actually directed toward a dialogue on the official relationships between Christian institutions," he said. "In order for such dialogue to be constructive, we must all have a clear understanding of who we are."

Gomez stressed that "in San Antonio, we have wonderful, honest relationships with our Christian brothers and sisters. I have no reason to expect that to change. It is with honesty and respect that we will continue to see our relationships grow."

But the Rev. Robert Emmitt, pastor of Community Bible Church, San Antonio's largest Protestant church, said the document takes a wrong biblical view of salvation, which is granted to those who believe in Christ without regard to church affiliation.

"You can't say any one church's interpretation of Scripture is the only one that counts. I don't take my cues from the Catholic Church. I take it from Scripture," he said. "I would view what (the pope) is saying as stirring up an old sibling rivalry. We ought to get the children of God working together for God — not fighting each other."

Despite the document's tone, Protestant leaders involved in ecumenical dialogues with the Catholic Church in the United States see nothing new in it, one leader said.

"The Catholic Church hasn't changed its teaching in a very long time," said Bishop Christopher Epting, the top ecumenical officer for the Episcopal Church in the U.S.A.

"For example, it believes that ordinations of priests in the Anglican Church are invalid. We believe our orders are valid and we are a church in the true sense," Epting said. "But we've been in dialogue for 40 years, and everybody is clear about our disagreements. This won't change anything. The dialogues will continue."

Father James Massa, executive director of the U.S. Catholic bishops' office of ecumenical affairs, said the new document is directed at Catholic bishops and theologians on a technical theological statement the council made and in no way represents a reversal of the council's teaching.

"Some Catholic theologians have interpreted it by saying the one true church of Christ could be in many different Christian bodies. The document says that Christ founded one church and that church is visibly present in the Catholic Church," he said.

But it also reiterates the council's statement that numerous elements of sanctification and truth found outside the structure of the Catholic Church.

National Council of Churches associate general secretary Ann Riggs noted it's directed to Catholic scholars to correct erroneous interpretations of Catholic doctrine.

"It acknowledges there are numerous elements of sanctification and truth outside the Catholic Church and those institutions have been used by the spirit of Christ as instruments of salvation," she said.

"It reaffirms that the ecumenical nature and purpose of the Second Vatican Council is still very much alive within and outside Catholic circles," National Council of Churches associate general secretary Ann Riggs said.

But Father Thomas Reese, author of several books on how the Catholic hierarchy works, said that while the document isn't the death of ecumenism, "it certainly doesn't help."

The pope is "basically a German academic who defines the terms to be used in his classroom, and his students have to understand his definition of the terms," Reese said.

"Now, the whole world is his classroom, but he's defining terms in ways that the average people on the street don't get the meaning. Their interpretation is very insulting, and he doesn't seem concerned."

But Reese said the document may reflect a concern about Catholics who have begun to believe that it doesn't matter whether they attend Catholic or a non-Catholic churches.

He referred to a survey indicating that almost half the Catholics under age 40 feel just as comfortable in another church as in the Catholic Church.

"I think he's a lot more concerned about Catholics and their attitude toward the church than about people outside the Catholic Church," he said.

Father David Garcia, rector of San Fernando Cathedral and host of many ecumenical and inter-faith events there, said the document appears to be an internal clarification for Catholics.

"Certainly nothing in any way will keep us from continuing our ecumenical and interfaith activities," said Garcia, who hosts an interfaith prayer service each Thanksgiving at the cathedral. "We continue our dialogues and our collaboration with all the religious traditions."

mysanantonio.com


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 10 months, 17 days
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Diploid]
    #7160323 - 07/11/07 01:14 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Ahh, finally the Inquisitor (aeh congregator) shines through again. I began to wonder :nut:

(I think this is a human fault, too)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,399
Loc: Under the C
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Diploid]
    #7161343 - 07/11/07 04:44 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Moderator edit: Removed personalisms. This forum is for the discussion of ideas, and not of the personal nature of the posters involved in this website.


--------------------


Edited by fireworks_god (07/12/07 08:36 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Diploid]
    #7161683 - 07/11/07 05:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Like I've said before, people who believe in things not in evidence, whether they do it violently or not, are cut from the same cloth.

Just like the Pope, terrorists think THEIR church is the only true church. The only difference is that the church doesn't use violence to punish non-believers any more.

--

Pope defines 'true church'

Web Posted: 07/11/2007 10:41 AM CDT

J. Michael Parker and Abe Levy
Express-News

The Vatican reiterated Tuesday that the Catholic Church is the one true church established by Jesus Christ and that other Christian denominations are defective, although they have elements of truth and sanctity.

In a brief document, "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine of the Church," the Vatican's doctrinal office, with Pope Benedict XVI's approval, reiterated controversial assertions made in its 2000 document, "Dominus Iesus," that Christian denominations that do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles — can't properly be called churches.

Protestant leaders said the suggestion that non-Catholic religions were "wounded" since they do not recognize the primacy of the pope was offensive and would hurt inter-denominational dialogue fostered by the late Pope John Paul II.

"The remarks of Pope Benedict XVI are disappointing. They represent a full retreat from the positions of Pope John Paul and Vatican II, which emphasized ecumenical outreach," said the Rev. John Hagee, pastor of the Cornerstone Church. "The concept that the Roman Catholic Church is the only church is false and has no basis in sacred Scripture."

But the Rev. Buckner Fanning, retired pastor of Trinity Baptist Church, said he's not alarmed by the document's language and said doctrinal differences between Christian denominations aren't as important as proclaiming the message of Jesus' death and resurrection.

"That message transcends the messengers. This is not going to reverse the wonderful ecumenical relations we've had in San Antonio. I've always had good relations with the Catholic community."

The document, which does not set any new doctrinal policies, comes within days of the pope's relaxing restrictions on the celebration of the Tridentine Latin Mass according to the rite approved by Pope John XXIII in 1962 during Vatican II.

That move has offended some Jews, who have expressed concern that prayers from the old Good Friday liturgy that used the term "perfidious Jews" might be revived, but Catholic sources said those prayers already had been removed before the 1962 rite was approved.

Archbishop José Gomez said the document merely affirms teachings already in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the documents of the Second Vatican Council.

"It's actually directed toward a dialogue on the official relationships between Christian institutions," he said. "In order for such dialogue to be constructive, we must all have a clear understanding of who we are."

Gomez stressed that "in San Antonio, we have wonderful, honest relationships with our Christian brothers and sisters. I have no reason to expect that to change. It is with honesty and respect that we will continue to see our relationships grow."

But the Rev. Robert Emmitt, pastor of Community Bible Church, San Antonio's largest Protestant church, said the document takes a wrong biblical view of salvation, which is granted to those who believe in Christ without regard to church affiliation.

"You can't say any one church's interpretation of Scripture is the only one that counts. I don't take my cues from the Catholic Church. I take it from Scripture," he said. "I would view what (the pope) is saying as stirring up an old sibling rivalry. We ought to get the children of God working together for God — not fighting each other."

Despite the document's tone, Protestant leaders involved in ecumenical dialogues with the Catholic Church in the United States see nothing new in it, one leader said.

"The Catholic Church hasn't changed its teaching in a very long time," said Bishop Christopher Epting, the top ecumenical officer for the Episcopal Church in the U.S.A.

"For example, it believes that ordinations of priests in the Anglican Church are invalid. We believe our orders are valid and we are a church in the true sense," Epting said. "But we've been in dialogue for 40 years, and everybody is clear about our disagreements. This won't change anything. The dialogues will continue."

Father James Massa, executive director of the U.S. Catholic bishops' office of ecumenical affairs, said the new document is directed at Catholic bishops and theologians on a technical theological statement the council made and in no way represents a reversal of the council's teaching.

"Some Catholic theologians have interpreted it by saying the one true church of Christ could be in many different Christian bodies. The document says that Christ founded one church and that church is visibly present in the Catholic Church," he said.

But it also reiterates the council's statement that numerous elements of sanctification and truth found outside the structure of the Catholic Church.

National Council of Churches associate general secretary Ann Riggs noted it's directed to Catholic scholars to correct erroneous interpretations of Catholic doctrine.

"It acknowledges there are numerous elements of sanctification and truth outside the Catholic Church and those institutions have been used by the spirit of Christ as instruments of salvation," she said.

"It reaffirms that the ecumenical nature and purpose of the Second Vatican Council is still very much alive within and outside Catholic circles," National Council of Churches associate general secretary Ann Riggs said.

But Father Thomas Reese, author of several books on how the Catholic hierarchy works, said that while the document isn't the death of ecumenism, "it certainly doesn't help."

The pope is "basically a German academic who defines the terms to be used in his classroom, and his students have to understand his definition of the terms," Reese said.

"Now, the whole world is his classroom, but he's defining terms in ways that the average people on the street don't get the meaning. Their interpretation is very insulting, and he doesn't seem concerned."

But Reese said the document may reflect a concern about Catholics who have begun to believe that it doesn't matter whether they attend Catholic or a non-Catholic churches.

He referred to a survey indicating that almost half the Catholics under age 40 feel just as comfortable in another church as in the Catholic Church.

"I think he's a lot more concerned about Catholics and their attitude toward the church than about people outside the Catholic Church," he said.

Father David Garcia, rector of San Fernando Cathedral and host of many ecumenical and inter-faith events there, said the document appears to be an internal clarification for Catholics.

"Certainly nothing in any way will keep us from continuing our ecumenical and interfaith activities," said Garcia, who hosts an interfaith prayer service each Thanksgiving at the cathedral. "We continue our dialogues and our collaboration with all the religious traditions."

mysanantonio.com




I think the Pooper is right. They are the true church. But who cares about churches?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Icelander]
    #7161717 - 07/11/07 05:53 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Church is wherever I am when I decide to take drugs. I like church... Did I ever mention that I am a minister?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7161738 - 07/11/07 05:55 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yes you did. You go by the handle of pastor Rod Flash of the Church of the Presumptuous Assumption.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Icelander]
    #7161759 - 07/11/07 05:57 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

You got it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7161767 - 07/11/07 05:59 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Are you sure you should be taking drugs in your delicate condition?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Icelander]
    #7161781 - 07/11/07 06:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

My condition has never been delicate. I always thought of it as heavy duty.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7161794 - 07/11/07 06:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

You seemed almost ethereal when I saw you.

Except for the snoring and farting. That certainly was heavy duty.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (07/11/07 06:03 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Icelander]
    #7161800 - 07/11/07 06:03 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Farting is one of my trademarks. I was never aware that I snored, but sleeping on the ground may have influenced this.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineContinuum
Kid A


Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 163
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7162125 - 07/11/07 07:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

yea way to go pope

lets re-affirm divisions among people that worship THE SAME FUCKING GUY

i hate religion


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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 5 years, 28 days
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Diploid]
    #7162324 - 07/11/07 08:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Like I've said before, people who believe in things not in evidence, whether they do it violently or not, are cut from the same cloth.

Just like the Pope, terrorists think THEIR church is the only true church. The only difference is that the church doesn't use violence to punish non-believers any more.




A suicide bomber believes in something, and the pope believes in something, and the Christian believes in something, they are all believers. Being a "believer of something" is the only thing they all have in common. So what? The same cloth is that they are "believers of something"? I don't see how you can clump "anyone who believes in something" into the same category. Shouldn't you care about what is believed? Isn't that more important then that fact they are “believers”?


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: fivepointer]
    #7162803 - 07/11/07 10:05 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

So what?

The so what of it is that when you think your invisible friend in the sky is better than someone else's invisible friend in the sky, it leads to wars, inquisitions, suicide bombings, and witch burnings.

That's what.

Better to believe only in things that everyone can see evidence for. That way, everyone gets along.

Religious people (and politicians who aren't any better) have a long history of oppressing and killing each other over things only they can see. You don't see scientists doing that.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 5 years, 28 days
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Diploid]
    #7162998 - 07/11/07 10:39 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
So what?

The so what of it is that when you think your invisible friend in the sky is better than someone else's invisible friend in the sky, it leads to wars, inquisitions, suicide bombings, and witch burnings.

That's what.

Better to believe only in things that everyone can see evidence for. That way, everyone gets along.

Religious people (and politicians who aren't any better) have a long history of oppressing and killing each other over things only they can see. You don't see scientists doing that.




Wickedness can wrap itself in "science" just as easily. "Scientific" social theory can be used to justify almost any atrocity.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
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Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Diploid]
    #7163001 - 07/11/07 10:39 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Better to believe only in things that everyone can see evidence for.
That way, everyone gets along.




Like, money.....?
Or, land....?   

:smirk:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineCUBErt
Connoisseur ofHallucination
Male


Registered: 08/24/05
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Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7163011 - 07/11/07 10:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Moderator edit: Removed personalisms. This forum is for the discussion of ideas, and not of the personal nature of the posters involved in this website.


--------------------
-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:


Edited by fireworks_god (07/12/07 08:37 AM)


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OfflineDr_T
Random Dude
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Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Diploid]
    #7163079 - 07/11/07 10:52 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Every church is the one and only One True Church, in their own eyes.
This surprises you?


--------------------
Roger Rabbit said: Growing mushrooms is part art, and part science, but it's not magic.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: CUBErt]
    #7163180 - 07/11/07 11:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If you were more attentive, you would have seen he posted in this thread :shrug:

:lol:

Moderator edit: Removed quotation of personalisms.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Edited by fireworks_god (07/12/07 08:39 AM)


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Pope Defines HIS Church as the Only True Church [Re: Diploid]
    #7164282 - 07/12/07 02:24 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

My church is the one and only true church. I am the leader and I have had visions.

For example, in the future all men and women will wear tight fitting silver jump suits. Be forwarned.


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