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fivepointer
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Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One?
#5626051 - 05/13/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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This article is from: http://acts413.org/religions/catholic/jesus.htm by Ray Kane - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
In the many years since I became saved by the grace of God and left the Catholic church, I have had an opportunity to talk to many Catholics about their faith. The one thing I noticed that they all had in common, without them ever realizing it, is that they all believe in a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible. Now wait a minute! you say. Our Jesus is the Jesus of the Bible. And to you I respond: Oh really? The Jesus of the Bible condemned many of the things that Catholicism approves of and teaches. Here are just a few examples for you to consider...
The Jesus of the Bible condemns idol worship:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. [Exodus 20:4-5]
The Jesus of the Bible only needed to be sacrificed once, not every day during mass:
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. [Hebrews 1:3]
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.[Hebrews 10:12]
The Jesus of the Bible is the head of the church in heaven and on earth, not the pope:
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion,and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all thingsto the church. [Ephesians 1:20-22]
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. [Eph 5:23]
The Jesus of the Bible is not a wafer made with human hands:
Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands. [Acts 19:26]
The Jesus of the Bible does not need and does not want any help from his earthly mother or dead saints to hear a person's prayers and petitions:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. [1 Timothy 2:5]
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous [1John 2:1]
The Jesus of the Bible had a mother who was a sinner who needed a Savior:
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. [Luke 1:46-47]
The Jesus of the Bible had literal brothers and sisters:
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. [Mark 6:3-4]
But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. [Galatians 1:19]
While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! [Matthew 12:46-49]
The Jesus of the Bible condemned menfor trying to appear holy by wearing religious costumes:
Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts [Luke 20:24]
The Jesus of the Bible is not pleased with people praying repetitious prayers like the Rosary:
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. [Matthew 6:7-8]
The Jesus of the Bible does not forbid church leaders from being married:
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach [1 Timothy 3:2]
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. [1 Timothy 4:1-3]
The Jesus of the Bible is capable of saving men's souls without the help of Catholic priests and without anyone's help, including yours:
... he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; [Hebrews 10:8-12]
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. [Hebrews 7:25]
The Jesus of the Bible did not suffer and die on Calvary just to enable all Catholics or all people to be saved but rather to pay a complete and terrible ransom for all the sins of all of His people:
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
[Matthew 1:21] ... Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. [Matthew 20:28] ... But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [Isaiah 53:5]
The Jesus of the Bible did not come to build the Roman Catholic church. He came to die for ungodly, hell-deserving, hopelessly lost sinners who will end up in hell if Christ does not save them:
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [Romans 4:5]
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. [Romans 5:6]
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [Genesis 6:5]
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? [Jeremiah 17:9]
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. [Isaiah 64:6]
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. [Luke 19:10]
The Jesus of the Bible setup a Church of saved sinners united by and under the authority of the Holy Spirit, not a church united by human tradition or under the authority of a human hierarchy in Rome:
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. [1 Corinthians 12:13]
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. [Ephesians 2:18]
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. [John 14:26]
The Jesus of the Bible does not care if your religion satisfies you. It must satisfy Him and His demand for perfection:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. [Matthew 5:48]
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [James 2:10]
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. [1Peter 1:16]
The Jesus of the Bible credits the account of guilty sinners with His own righteousness so that they are prepared to meet God on Judgment Day:
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith [Philippians 3:9]
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Icelander
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
#5626071 - 05/13/06 08:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What a hateful religion you adhere to. Shame on you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: Icelander]
#5626084 - 05/13/06 08:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Just wondering. Did you by any chance grow up in a Catholic neighbor hood and get pummeled daily by them? Or are you jealous because they got more members?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Basilides
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
#5626089 - 05/13/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Good Lord, get a life. Only Gnostics post here
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Icelander
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: Basilides]
#5626116 - 05/13/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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If only that were true.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
#5626486 - 05/13/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Which Jesus? The Catholic One, the Protestant Ones, or the Fightin Jesus?
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dblaney
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
#5627151 - 05/14/06 12:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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You remind me of a missionary.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: dblaney]
#5627509 - 05/14/06 04:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why do any of you bother responding even, since you are not christians, it doesn't concern you. You don't believe in THIS kind of Jesus, nor the kind that is worshiped today.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Basilides
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5627526 - 05/14/06 05:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's folks like fivepointer that are hijacking the teachings of Jesus.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: Basilides]
#5627585 - 05/14/06 07:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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A Bible is a book that consists of unprovable statements, so you have no real way of knowing which parts are true and which are not. If you take certain parts for truth and reject other parts, you are stabing your own belief in the back because you are basically saying: "my beliefs come from a book in which some pages are true and some are not, and I have no way of knowing which pages are these" And that simply makes no sense. Either you take it as it is or leave it, unless of course you have other sources of knowledge so that you can confirm some of those events and teachnings, but you don't really. All you can really do is take a look at other books like Koran, which mostly confirm each other.
Modern christianity works like this: they say: ok, we believe the part from Mathew 1:10 to 5:10 is true, the other is untrue, because it FEELS untrue to us. Either you take it all to be truth, or just drop it, because it makes no sense to use your own logic to figure out which of it is true. Why it makes no sense? Because modern christians have no information about their core teachings other than that which is in those books. And logic without the right premises leads away from truth, while logic with all the premises leads to truth.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5627643 - 05/14/06 08:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: Why do any of you bother responding even, since you are not christians, it doesn't concern you. You don't believe in THIS kind of Jesus, nor the kind that is worshiped today.
He didn't say he only wanted response from Christians. Does that mean I can't respond to anything about our president if I'm not a Republican or about Buddhism if I'm not a Buddhist? Ridiculous!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: Icelander]
#5627716 - 05/14/06 09:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: Why do any of you bother responding even, since you are not christians, it doesn't concern you. You don't believe in THIS kind of Jesus, nor the kind that is worshiped today.
He didn't say he only wanted response from Christians. Does that mean I can't respond to anything about our president if I'm not a Republican or about Buddhism if I'm not a Buddhist? Ridiculous!
What I'm saying is what difference does it make to you? It would be like me arguing who is the true witchdoctor of some african tribe, any of them can be true because I don't believe in their magic powers, so it makes no difference.
The original point is that current widespread image of Christ is not consistant with his OWN words. Modern church takes these texts, repackes them, advertises them and sells them in a commercial form, that is acceptable to the modern man. It does so by tabooing certain parts which would make a modern conformist person disturbed, and speaks out loud the parts which everyone wants to hear. It's not the point wheather all of this is true or not, maybe it's all a fairytale, maybe its the literal truth, that's not the point, the point is that it is an idea that has been edited and spliced, like a movie by the Roman church over 2000 years. And by editing I don't mean tampering with the text, there is really no need for that, the manipulation comes from the fact that christians don't read the Bible, as much as they listen to priest reading it. And priests read to them what they want them to hear. There are parts of the Bible which a modern christian never even heard about, because they aren't as marketable by the church. A lot of the things that modern Catholics take for granted, like all these wierd rituals, come from medieval distortions of aincient beliefs, and most christians don't even know that, they think the Jesus himself toled everyone to go to mass on sunday, which is ridiculous
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5627823 - 05/14/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What I'm saying is what difference does it make to you?
It doesn't matter. I come here for the fun of debate. I can chime in on anything posted and for my own reasons. It's a public forum.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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dblaney
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5628009 - 05/14/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why do any of you bother responding even, since you are not christians, it doesn't concern you. You don't believe in THIS kind of Jesus, nor the kind that is worshiped today.
Yeah, the whole purpose of this board is to debate this sort of thing. While I may agree with some of the points the article raises, something about its presentation irks me. It's as though there is something that must be proved, either to the original poster or to us. A metaphorical soapbox.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: dblaney]
#5628111 - 05/14/06 11:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said: Why do any of you bother responding even, since you are not christians, it doesn't concern you. You don't believe in THIS kind of Jesus, nor the kind that is worshiped today.
Yeah, the whole purpose of this board is to debate this sort of thing. While I may agree with some of the points the article raises, something about its presentation irks me. It's as though there is something that must be proved, either to the original poster or to us. A metaphorical soapbox.
well obviously there is much tension here in the original poster, a tension which would not be there in the first place had the poster trully been on gods side, but the point is well made I think. Catholic teachnigs are sometimes quite contradictory to the book they most often quote, not just them a lot of other religions too.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fivepointer]
#5628182 - 05/14/06 11:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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You're our kind of Christian fivepointer! We all about givin' what-for to all "hell-deserving, hopelessly lost sinners who will end up in hell." It's our God-appointed mission to Judge all the spiritually, morally and genetically degenerate excuses fer yoomin' bein's! That's why we're a-wardin' you an honorary membership in the KKK. You think exactly the way WE do Brother fivepointer!
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EquilibriuM
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5628195 - 05/14/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: Why do any of you bother responding even, since you are not christians, it doesn't concern you. You don't believe in THIS kind of Jesus, nor the kind that is worshiped today.
He didn't say he only wanted response from Christians. Does that mean I can't respond to anything about our president if I'm not a Republican or about Buddhism if I'm not a Buddhist? Ridiculous!
What I'm saying is what difference does it make to you? It would be like me arguing who is the true witchdoctor of some african tribe, any of them can be true because I don't believe in their magic powers, so it makes no difference.
The original point is that current widespread image of Christ is not consistant with his OWN words. Modern church takes these texts, repackes them, advertises them and sells them in a commercial form, that is acceptable to the modern man. It does so by tabooing certain parts which would make a modern conformist person disturbed, and speaks out loud the parts which everyone wants to hear. It's not the point wheather all of this is true or not, maybe it's all a fairytale, maybe its the literal truth, that's not the point, the point is that it is an idea that has been edited and spliced, like a movie by the Roman church over 2000 years. And by editing I don't mean tampering with the text, there is really no need for that, the manipulation comes from the fact that christians don't read the Bible, as much as they listen to priest reading it. And priests read to them what they want them to hear. There are parts of the Bible which a modern christian never even heard about, because they aren't as marketable by the church. A lot of the things that modern Catholics take for granted, like all these wierd rituals, come from medieval distortions of aincient beliefs, and most christians don't even know that, they think the Jesus himself toled everyone to go to mass on sunday, which is ridiculous
If you are Christian then you must believe in their magic powers, they are spoken of in the bible...
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: EquilibriuM]
#5628839 - 05/14/06 03:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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First of all I'm not a christian, and second christian priests don't have magic powers, and neither do prophets, at least not then. Nowdays, a christian priest has smae amount of magic power as we all do, he can change chanels with a remote, and he can talk to another priest who is 1000km away
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/14/06 03:42 PM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: EquilibriuM]
#5628902 - 05/14/06 03:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
EquilibriuM said: If you are Christian then you must believe in their magic powers, they are spoken of in the bible...
Incorrect. The title "Christian" encompasses a considerable amount of territory. Taking into consideration the thousands of different organizations and churches that each hold a different viewpoint of Christianity, it is obvious that considering oneself to be a Christian does not mean that one must believe in any particular thing.
Ultimately, its an if/then statement that isn't very reasonable. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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EquilibriuM
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Re: Which Jesus? The Catholic one or the real One? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5628931 - 05/14/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
EquilibriuM said: If you are Christian then you must believe in their magic powers, they are spoken of in the bible...
Incorrect. The title "Christian" encompasses a considerable amount of territory. Taking into consideration the thousands of different organizations and churches that each hold a different viewpoint of Christianity, it is obvious that considering oneself to be a Christian does not mean that one must believe in any particular thing.
Ultimately, its an if/then statement that isn't very reasonable. 
 Peace.
If you believe the Bible word for word, then you must believe in magic and witchcraft.
Is that better?
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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