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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
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Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
emotion and experience
    #4590179 - 08/28/05 05:14 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

not 100% about this, looking for input:

emotion is the pain and pleasure we feel in our heart; experience is our understanding of the causes of the feelings.

emotion can change through honest appraisal of reality.

example:
let's say when people disagree with me, i feel rejected.

is it really true that i'm rejected if i'm disagreed with? or are rejection and disagreement distinct concepts? if i'm honest enough with myself i can see the difference.

once i sit back and think about this, perhaps i will not feel rejected when someone disagrees with me. (which is not to say the need for acceptance itself disappears.)

the emotion has been sifted from the experience. in my opinion this is an interesting process.

any thoughts/observations/disagreements?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4590289 - 08/28/05 07:39 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4590521 - 08/28/05 12:12 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

If you associate disagreement with rejection, you may be correct, you may be incorrect, or there is zero association. I mean, it depends and isn't consistent.

It's interesting to go back on situations that you thought you had a read on and reconsider or even ask the other person if what you thought you read was what they meant. Often, you end up being completely wrong.

Still, to the extent that you believe the disagreement to be rejection, your mind will reinforce that notion, right or wrong.

The flip side is whether agreement is always acceptance, or often codependence?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (08/28/05 12:21 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4590528 - 08/28/05 12:16 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

crunchytoast said:
not 100% about this, looking for input:

emotion is the pain and pleasure we feel in our heart; experience is our understanding of the causes of the feelings.

emotion can change through honest appraisal of reality.

example:
let's say when people disagree with me, i feel rejected.

is it really true that i'm rejected if i'm disagreed with? or are rejection and disagreement distinct concepts? if i'm honest enough with myself i can see the difference.

once i sit back and think about this, perhaps i will not feel rejected when someone disagrees with me. (which is not to say the need for acceptance itself disappears.)

the emotion has been sifted from the experience. in my opinion this is an interesting process.

any thoughts/observations/disagreements?





you are not the issue, when people dissagree with you they don't give a rats ass about you because they don't know you personally, they just reject these words. They are not even your words, they are just words to them.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4590615 - 08/28/05 01:06 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

well my post was about emotion vs. experience per se, but for the sake of argument-

how do people know each other personally? how is reading someone's posts on the internet substantially different from hearing the sound waves they generate? or the tactile sensations they imprint? or colors they produce in my retinas? experience always happens in a medium.

"They are not even your words, they are just words to them."
your words are not your words to me?

personally, sometimes i do give a rat's ass about other people on these boards. which makes it unlikely in my mind that no one gives a rat's ass about me, ever. even if it's the exception not the rule!

"they just reject these words"
so you can't accept my words for what they are yet disagree also?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


Edited by crunchytoast (08/28/05 01:26 PM)


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: emotion and experience [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4590652 - 08/28/05 01:23 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If you associate disagreement with rejection, you may be correct, you may be incorrect, or there is zero association. I mean, it depends and isn't consistent.



yes! they're independant concepts

Quote:

Still, to the extent that you believe the disagreement to be rejection, your mind will reinforce that notion, right or wrong.



which is very interesting- normally i think about emotions as interaction of world with body, like fire causes pain; yet this is like a subjectively created emotion.

i wonder if a better description is that emotions have an objective reality that is experienced in the same subjective sense?

"i experience rejection" when someone disagrees. then after careful observation, i realize disagreement and rejection are independant. yet while i thought they were the same, every time i was disagreed with, i felt rejected.

yet if emotions are the objective part an of experience, what does this emotion say about me?

perhaps that during the "rejecting" experience, i had this need for acceptance that was unsatisfied; and it was unsatisfied because i hadn't opened myself up to the possibility of acceptance during disagreement.

IOW my experience wasn't wrong; it fit the bill. i simply wasn't aware of this new possibility.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4590695 - 08/28/05 01:39 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

crunchytoast said:
well my post was about emotion vs. experience per se, but for the sake of argument-

how do people know each other personally? how is reading someone's posts on the internet substantially different from hearing the sound waves they generate? or the tactile sensations they imprint? or colors they produce in my retinas? experience always happens in a medium.

"They are not even your words, they are just words to them."
your words are not your words to me?

personally, sometimes i do give a rat's ass about other people on these boards. which makes it unlikely in my mind that no one gives a rat's ass about me, ever. even if it's the exception not the rule!

"they just reject these words"
so you can't accept my words for what they are yet disagree also?




For example, I only remember a few people on these forums and know their patters, beside the obvious few (swami, diploid), I remember Jiggy, Icelander, looner (he is very hard not to remember), and hue.
In last few weeks I've started to see a pattern in ravus too, but that's about it.
there are so many people. If I talked with one of them for a long time, sure it would be same as talking face to face, it could say I know them, but I see individual posts most of the time, respond to them individually, and forget the name of the poster in 10 minutes.

And as for rejecting, well not agreeing with something is a form of rejecting it, trhowing it in the thrash can. If you don't agree with something, you BELIEVE it is not truth. It's all about beliefs. In one specific moment, a human being can not be free of beliefs. In the long run, you can be without beliefs, but in just this one moment when you are thinking about something, you either believe it or not.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4590726 - 08/28/05 01:53 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

which is very interesting- normally i think about emotions as interaction of world with body, like fire causes pain; yet this is like a subjectively created emotion.


I think of fire causes pain as a reflex reaction and a learned experience.

Emotions come from the subconscious interacting with the physical world through the conscious mind. While the physical world can create emotions, emotions can also change the physical world. It is an ongoing interaction.

Emotions when honest and heartfelt and appropriate are wonderful expressions of our humanity. The problem is that our emotions are often based on our past experiences more than what is going on right now. We filter and judge through our often bad experiences and then emote our anger, guilt, fear, shame, etc. from a place long ago. We are unable to relate these distant experiences and memories to the now but they come into play.

I mean, surely there's something to your feeling rejection when disagreed with. Did your parents argue a lot and then your dad slept on the couch, for example? Something like that could lead you to feel a rejection emotion associated with today's disagreement that was merely a difference of opinions and in no way a rejection.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
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Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: emotion and experience [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4590740 - 08/28/05 01:59 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

For example, I only remember a few people on these forums and know their patters, beside the obvious few (swami, diploid), I remember Jiggy, Icelander, looner (he is very hard not to remember), and hue.
In last few weeks I've started to see a pattern in ravus too, but that's about it.




well that's your experience. personally i pay attention to these more visible folks, but also people like bleak, locus, veritas, jacquescousteau, hobbitcg, rednukleus, and many others, and have a picture in my head of each of these people's personalities, albeit an imperfect one- some folks who may not even be aware of me at all- but this is me and what i notice.

are you extrapolating from your experience that everyone must share it?

"If you don't agree with something, you BELIEVE it is not truth"
i can disagree with something, it may not be true for me, yet i believe it's true for you


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


Edited by crunchytoast (08/28/05 02:03 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4590753 - 08/28/05 02:02 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Believing that it is ture for me, really does not change the fact that you feel it is not true for YOU.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Registered: 04/07/05
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4590800 - 08/28/05 02:23 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

OWS: i agree that it doesn't change that fact but i would say it adds something to the mix

lunar-
"The problem is that our emotions are often based on our past experiences more than what is going on right now."

the emotions are about what's going on right now - i feel angry right now, or charmed, or rejected- but i agree they can be based in the past, in the sense that if rejection and disagreement were paired together in a person's life, disagreement will henceforth be experienced as rejection.

yet i would argue it's a real feeling about the present and not an illusion. the illusion is in the experience, not the feeling. the emotion of being rejected is real, whereas the experience of being rejected is not real, because the person isn't open (in the present moment) to acceptance during disagreement. naturally they feel rejected if that's the only possibility they allow for themself.

IOW it's a question of becoming vulnerable. the person for whom disagreement = rejection finds themself rejected outright; whereas the person who gambles acceptance gambles rejection.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4590904 - 08/28/05 02:57 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

yet i would argue it's a real feeling about the present and not an illusion.

The feeling exists in the present but it's reason for being exists in the past. Yet, as we express our feelings and emotions largely from our pattern of reacting a certain way to certain past situations, we influence not only our reality but those around us.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4591094 - 08/28/05 03:55 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

IMO you have come very close by saying that the experiences that have pain and pleasure in them are called emotional.

I would add that experiences or associated memories of experiences that have a strong body component in them can be reagarded as emotional.

when any associated memory is recalled, the connected body sensations seem to arise as well. If the feelings fo those body sensations are painful or pleasureable, that affects the new experience as well, and we call it emotional memory, or emotional association.

I often write about this:
many of our common terms are quite muddled, especially with the term "feelings" usually we mean sensations instead of feelings, and sometimes people use feelings to cover the more general term of emotion instead of just feeling pain or feeling pleasure or feeling indifferent. Some lilk to use it as a synonym with thinking and they will go on about their feelings about some issue, with absolutely no body associations or pain or pleasure (except some pride in getting attention) imparting "sophistication" to their ideas, but adding to general confusion about what we are as human beings.

oddly, when you look at it really analytically, thoughts and sensations can have intensities that range from nothing through
1) indifferent feeling, up to an optimum of
2) pleasurable feelings to an extreme of
3) painful feeling.
nearly every other common use of the term "feeling" leads to confusuion of what the speaker/writer is saying.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Registered: 04/07/05
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4593538 - 08/29/05 01:47 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

albeit dodging the thrust of your post-

are you familiar with emdr (eye movement desensitization reprocessing i think) therapy-

i've read about emotional memories getting locked up in bodily sensations just as you describe


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4594294 - 08/29/05 07:14 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

cognitive therapy works if you give it a chance, but no single technique works everywhere 'cept maybe vipassana, as far as connecting to any memory and softening the body armour - or blockages that have accumulated - the reflex defenses.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: emotion and experience [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4595779 - 08/29/05 07:04 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

at some point i want therapy from a therapist and i'll choose someone who identifies themself as humanist; good cbt/analysis operates in the same way i believe; yet i figure someone who identifies themself as client-centered would be less likely to be manipulative or judgmental

emdr is primarily used for post traumatic stress disorder which luckily i dont suffer from-


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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