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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Evolution of Mental Abilities - Child Geniuses vs. Darwinism....
    #4589809 - 08/28/05 02:20 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

We have presumably all heard of those rare instances where "normal" parents give birth to a child that has "super human" abilities to learn and retain knowledge - IE a ten year old child that is effortlessly taking college courses with straight A's....  This would seem to be a favorable intelligence trait that would greatly increase the odds of survival in the traditional Darwinist thinking of evolution....    Right....?

But....  I have never heard of one of those children growing up and having offspring with those same "super-smart" traits....(?)    Otherwise, wouldn't there be a family lineage (from that point on in the tree) of an evolved human intelligence "class" of people breeding that superior "trait" of intellectually super-smart people....?

Discuss....(?)


:sun:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Edited by PhanTomCat (08/28/05 04:53 AM)


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OfflineBoneMan
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4589906 - 08/28/05 03:00 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

nerds dont get bitches.

unless they become very successful and rich. but still its tricky


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Offlinejohnson657
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4589911 - 08/28/05 03:02 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

If the smart people all breeded with others of their same ability it could probably happen, but i bet they don"t.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities.... [Re: johnson657]
    #4589951 - 08/28/05 03:22 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

he's talking about child prodigies, not nerds.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities.... [Re: johnson657]
    #4589958 - 08/28/05 03:26 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BoneMan said:
nerds dont get bitches. 
.
unless they become very successful and rich.  but still its tricky



.
Well, they are usually kind of socially "different" because of the age factor, being so young in college as compared to their peers, but the ones I have heard about seem to study to be Doctors and such....  Kinda~ like Dooooogy Houser....!  :lol:  But in real life....  So financially I would think that they would be set - socially, I dunno~....
.
.
Quote:

johnson657 said:
If the smart people all breeded with others of their same ability it could probably happen, but i bet they don"t.



.
A redhead does not have to breed with another redhead to pass on the trait....


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4589964 - 08/28/05 03:28 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Both my wife and myself have well above average intelligence levels, and our children are all well above average in intelligence as well. Environment definitely plays a part, but so does genetics. Without the proper environment the genetics can never reach their full potential.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities.... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4590063 - 08/28/05 04:09 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with the environment effecting the potential, but I am not just talking about passing a "normal" high intelligence level onto your offspring.... I am talking about the "gifted", "freaks of nature", "prodigy", or "Genius" children....

http://www.colleges.com/Umagazine/articles/campusclips/childgeniuses.html

Even more specifically, I was more wondering why/how these genius children that seem to have something of an evolved intelligence level over their parents - why don't they pass on this trait to their children....? It seems to be more of a random thing, where as in Darwin's theory it seems that this trait would be a "solidified" trait that would go on down the bloodline.... Ya~ see what I am getting at....?

Mutation = Evolution - IF the mutated trait increases the odds of survival....

(If I understand Darwinism correctly....?)


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4590258 - 08/28/05 06:23 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I think very often these "geniuses" are simply a matter of the right training early on. Not much else.

Its just my oppinion ofcourse, but that has been the case with every "child-prodegy" I?ve come across.

The human mind has an almost infinite potential for devoloping, and you can really make something happen if you are dedicated to working hard with your kid from age 0-7 (or somewhere around that age)

It seems to me, that this age, - kids just "do" .. they completely lack the ability to "think" or "rationalize", and this makes them able to learn even really complex things quite easily.


Now, my observations of this, is based solely on classical piano training. Im myself a pianist, and I?ve known and worked with quite a few "child-prodegies" over the years.

Every single one of them, have had a background including extremely ambitious parrents, who right from the start, were dedicated to working and training with this child every sinlge day, all year long.

Normal kids play and watch tv for the first 5-6 years ... Imagine the difference it makes to have someone schedule daily training for several hours all this time. In my experience, this is what changes a "120 IQ" into a "160 IQ" over the years.

Hard work and dedication.

I think this will make up 99.9999% of the cases were a child displays "extremely-gifted"-tendencies

The parrents are usually a-bit-above-average-intelligent, ambitious, greedy people, who want to "give their child the best possibilities ... a head start in life" and similar reasonings

ofcourse there are some individual differences in these children .. a very few of them are born with somewhat greater ability/capacity than the rest. Once in a while, one will be super-extraordinarily gifted. Still, its the training that really makes it take of, which ofcourse is also the reason that this is not a simple thing to "pass on with the genetics"

A lot of surcumstances have to be just right. The parrents have to be completely obsessed with this project "turning little junior into something very special", and to a very high degree, they have to give up completely their own life and ambitions. Then the child needs ofcourse the right teacher, whivh is also a bit of luck, since it has to be a teacher who responds well to/understand well the specific child. They are not all the same, and not all of them respond the same to the same teaching methods.

Well. in short ... a lot of factors have to match perfectly, in order for the "prodigy" to be created. So I guess what Im basically saying is this : its more than anything the environment creating this "freak of nature". In most cases, the child would just turn out to be "somewhat gifted and intelligent, but nothing extremely special"


Usually these children end up having a quite disturbed puberty, and as adults, very often a hard time axepting the fact that now, a lot of "normal" people have caught up with them .... Hard work can do o lot for an "average" person over the course of 20-25 years...

The "genious" children usually reach "full-potential" much earlier, and they have to go on tours and be displayed as "marvellous wonders" from age 8 till 17-18-19


when they are grown up, society - which is never satisfied and always on the lookout for the next thrill and the next freak of nature - usually lose interest in them, and suddenly they - or many of them - have to go through a really hard period of "finding out who they are" ... I?ve seen so many examples of this turning out "not well" ... to put it nicely

there might be an occasional exception to this, but personally, I don?t think it is worth it.

In most cases, I would say that "genious children" - "child prodegies" and the likes, are products of a society obsessed with greed ... They are the creations of parrents and teachers, whos goals in life are taken straight out of monopoly or a similar game ... everything is about winning, being better than the rest, and faster, and quicker, and brighter and .....

It will never stop ofcourse, so I guess at least we should be happy that once in a very rare while, this mentality produces a Mozart or a Beethoven or Van Gogh or similar ... But who knows, ... these extremely rare cases might be exactly the tiny 0.0001% who would have just turned out to be unique and completely marvellous anyway?


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities - Child Geniuses vs. Darwinism.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4590373 - 08/28/05 10:16 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501030217/story.html

From page #2:

""Researchers are just beginning to understand that there are differences in the functioning of the brain's neural circuitry that appear to differentiate prodigies from their ordinary peers. Neuroscientists have learned more about human gray matter in the past 10 years than in all of previous medical history combined, partly due to the advent of sophisticated technology such as a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanner, which measures blood flow to different segments of the brain, revealing which parts "light up" during various mental activities. The only fMRI scanner in the Southern Hemisphere can be found in Melbourne, where American psychologist Michael O'Boyle has been scanning the brains of young people gifted in mathematics.
.
He's making some startling discoveries. O'Boyle found that, compared with average kids, children with an aptitude for numbers show six to seven times more metabolic activity in the right side of their brains, an area known to mediate pattern recognition and spatial awareness?key abilities for math and music. Scans also showed heightened activity in the frontal lobes, believed to play a crucial "executive" role in coordinating thought and improving concentration. This region of the brain is virtually inactive in average children when doing the same tasks. Viewed with fMRI, "It's like the difference between a stoplight and a Christmas tree," says O'Boyle, the director of the University of Melbourne's Morgan Center, which researches the development of children who have high intellectual potential. "Not only do math-gifted kids have higher right-side processing power, but this power is also fine-tuned by frontal areas that enhance concentration. These kids are really locked on."
.
O'Boyle believes prodigies also can switch very efficiently between the brain's left and right hemispheres, utilizing other mental resources and perhaps even shutting down areas that produce random distractions. In short, while their brains aren't physically different from ordinary children's, prodigies seem to be able to focus better?to muster the mental resources necessary to solve problems and learn. "For the longest time, these kids' brains were considered the same as everyone else's; they just did twice as much, twice as fast," says O'Boyle. "It turns out those quantitative explanations don't fit. They're doing something qualitatively different.""


:sun:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities - Child Geniuses vs. Darwinism.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4590394 - 08/28/05 10:37 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

yes, but it all boils down to this (doesn?t it) : are these measurable differences the cause of the "genius abilities" ... or , are the "genius abilities" causing these measurable differences?

I tend to believe the latter. Training certain mental abilities, will automatically make your brain develop and transform in a certain way. The more and the earlier you start doling this, the more you will be able to obtain drastic results. This is completely a personal belief based on experience. Im sure someone somewhere dissagrees.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities.... [Re: BoneMan]
    #4590511 - 08/28/05 12:07 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BoneMan said:
nerds dont get bitches.

unless they become very successful and rich. but still its tricky




attractivness of the woman you get is not an evolutionary success, because an ugly woman will give you same number of children as a pretty woman, and both will live equal amount of time, and have equal amount of their own children. So non of it really matters.

there is nothing you can do in human society that is going to change your evolutionary chances, because there is no selection going on inside human society. Whoever you are you get the same chances as everybody else


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4590529 - 08/28/05 12:17 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

i remember reading iq increasing about 10 points every generation


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities.... [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4590545 - 08/28/05 12:23 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I have got to laugh to that. How come nothing has changed in thousands of generations then? The motifs are the same, the way of thinking is the same, the behaviour is the same. The only thing that is changing is fashion and techology.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities - Child Geniuses vs. Darwinism.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4592117 - 08/28/05 09:26 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Darwinism is much more complex than most people realize. This is a trend in evolution (and statistics, though not really relevant to the subject) called "regression toward the mean". Two extremely tall parents will probably have tall kids, but chances are those kids will be more towards the average than the parents. Likewise, two genius parents will probably have kids with an above average intelligence, but more towards the mean than either of the parents. Possibly a protective measure against mutations running out of hand?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_towards_the_mean

Though to be honest this doesn't explain why normal parents have genius children in rare occassions; I don't know why really.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities - Child Geniuses vs. Darwinism.... [Re: Ravus]
    #4593126 - 08/29/05 12:41 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Thanx~ Ravus, interesting that the "regression towards the mean" history actually even touched on geniuses and their offspring in that link....!    :smile:    Complex, indeed....

Quote:

Possibly a protective measure against mutations running out of hand?




I would speculate this to be correct as well....  And perhaps nothing will truly explain why a specific "mutation" like this occurs, but I find it very interesting: ""there are differences in the functioning of the brain's neural circuitry that appear to differentiate prodigies from their ordinary peers.""  Perhaps it is like the negative neuro chemical imbalances that sometimes occur, but it is on the optimal positive side of the scale/spectrum....(?)  It doesn't seem to be an even "positive - negative" scale, but maybe out of the different possibilities, the best possible scenario has an even showing out off all the neuro chemical possibilities (I have not done the research)....

It does *seem* as though these positive traits would be more dominant thru time....  It certainly could change intellectual social standards to some degree - and maybe this IS for checks and balances....


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities - Child Geniuses vs. Darwinism.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4598902 - 08/30/05 02:27 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

have anyone of you ever seen a "prodigy"? you would probably mistake them for being retarted if someone didnt tell you they can do differential equations in their heads. Evolution doesnt favor them because they are not survivalists, hence they never reproduce. I mean, how many girls would produce with a retarted guy?


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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities - Child Geniuses vs. Darwinism.... [Re: yousuck]
    #4599929 - 08/30/05 07:08 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

?

You do know that looking like a retard has nothing to do with being a prodigy, right?


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OfflineIsaac420
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities - Child Geniuses vs. Darwinism.... [Re: Ravus]
    #4600170 - 08/30/05 07:57 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Darwinism is much more complex than most people realize. This is a trend in evolution (and statistics, though not really relevant to the subject) called "regression toward the mean". Two extremely tall parents will probably have tall kids, but chances are those kids will be more towards the average than the parents. Likewise, two genius parents will probably have kids with an above average intelligence, but more towards the mean than either of the parents. Possibly a protective measure against mutations running out of hand?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_towards_the_mean

Though to be honest this doesn't explain why normal parents have genius children in rare occassions; I don't know why really.




When dealing with traits such as these, you go back to the subject of Biology, and remember that the 3rd trait is a mix of your mom's trait, your dad's trait, and a completely new trait (I guess in your situation, the trait that pushes it all towards the "norm")

Now, if your mom and dad's trait were 66.6% of the outcome of this new trait, and that 66.6% was made up of two dominant traits such as being tall, then wouldn't that be more of a chance of being tall, rather than being the "norm"

I dunno, maybe I'm rambling.


--------------------
if you don't like my fire, then don't come around,
cause I'm gonna burn one down
- Ben Harper


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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities - Child Geniuses vs. Darwinism.... [Re: vampirism]
    #4603609 - 08/31/05 02:22 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
?

You do know that looking like a retard has nothing to do with being a prodigy, right?




give me the name of one prodigy that didnt act or look retarted in some way. Its all a balance, where they gain in their abilites, they lose in their common functions.


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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: Evolution of Mental Abilities - Child Geniuses vs. Darwinism.... [Re: yousuck]
    #4603683 - 08/31/05 02:52 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

yousuck said:
have anyone of you ever seen a "prodigy"? you would probably mistake them for being retarted if someone didnt tell you they can do differential equations in their heads. Evolution doesnt favor them because they are not survivalists, hence they never reproduce. I mean, how many girls would produce with a retarted guy?




I think you're talkin about a savant


--------------------
"You might not be aware of this, but there are a lot of dickheads on the Internet." - D. Wong


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