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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Sinbad]
    #4332971 -

No , my answer is yes I would share the truth if I knew it was the truth for sure. But I don't. I like to let it be known that what I share is a best guess and someone elses might be better or more on target. That way I don't preach to anyone. At least I try not to. I actually work with them to see if we can both improve our best guess. And that is a guess also. :grin:

So great! If you agree that we are all just best guessing then we also cannot know who knows ultimate truth for sure. Like you said we are sharing our present view. That's great and nothing wrong there.

I don't think I can know what truth is. I don't know by examination "who" knows truth, an have not yet fully realized the fallcy of "self". Back to my best guess. So we would disagree here and that's ok. Maybe you do know, or maybe Fireworks God does, or maybe Veritas, or Hue, or Budda, or Jesus, or Charlie Manson, or George Carlin, or Swami, or Diploid, or Johnny Cash, My best guess is I don't.  :grin: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Icelander]
    #4333235 -

Would there even be any words to put the "Real truth" into. Or am I looking at this from a different place?


--------------------
"my old friend told me
to do well always
set your sails, open
ride your waves, flowing
just relax, sober
leave you past, it's over
bind two hands, stronger
my soul waits, forward" - Arjun and Guardians

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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: CeeThruMeer]
    #4333291 -

CeeThruMeer said:
Would there even be any words to put the "Real truth" into. Or am I looking at this from a different place?



Good question. Words would not be able to convey it, because each person interprets words differently. So... I like to talk about each of our personal/subjective definitions of truth. How all of us see it, maybe differently, and yet there may be similarities if you look closely and without prejudice.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Swami]
    #4334590 -

why did Leary not perceive the damage he was doing by his approach to spread the word?

Did explorers of the New World fall prey to bugs and diseases during their explorations of the unknown? Yes. Should they have reversed course and retreated towards the comfort zone of what was already known? I don't think so. By exploring new regions, whether physical or psychedelic, we will encounter obstacles. And we will meet and overcome them just as we always have. The hardships are no reason to wimp out.

Why did Lilly become mentally unstable requiring hospitalization?

Dr. Lilly was not hospitalized while taking psychedelics. He had a bad reaction to ketamine, a disassociate, after sustaining an injury.


--------------------
I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Jellric]
    #4334661 -

Should they have reversed course and retreated towards the comfort zone of what was already known?
Comingling again. Insight and it's application has little to do with exploration. New World explorers were outward focused not inward; nor did they claim great wisdom or clarity.

Dr. Lilly was not hospitalized while taking psychedelics. He had a bad reaction to ketamine, a disassociate, after sustaining an injury.
So? His long exposure to LSD and communicating with the Galactic Control (or whatever) did not seem to unblind him to his own addictions and self-destructive behaviors.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Swami]
    #4334905 -

Neither of the two ever said their mind-altering exposure to psychedelics made them perfect. And inner exploration produces inner obstacles just as outer exploration produces outer obstacles.

So they were not perfect. So what? None of us are.

Should we stop exploring these strange realms simply because some of those who went before us faltered? Can we not learn from their mistakes and go forward or should we abandon all research into the areas they explored merely because they were guilty of the crime of being human and capable of mistakes?


--------------------
I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Jellric]
    #4334929 -

they were not perfect. So what? None of us are.

Source? Have you met and analyzed all 6 billion people or is this a just popular cliche you are regurgitating?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Icelander]
    #4335124 -

Icelander said:
No , my answer is yes I would share the truth if I knew it was the truth for sure. But I don't. I like to let it be known that what I share is a best guess and someone else might be better or more on target. That way I don't preach to anyone. At least I try not to. I actually work with them to see if we can both improve our best guess. And that is a guess also. :grin:

So great! If you agree that we are all just best guessing then we also cannot know who knows ultimate truth for sure. Like you said we are sharing our present view. That's great and nothing wrong there.

I don't think I can know what truth is. I don't know by examination "who" knows truth, an have not yet fully realized the fallacy of "self". Back to my best guess. So we would disagree here and that's OK. Maybe you do know, or maybe Fireworks God does, or maybe Veritas, or Hue, or Budda, or Jesus, or Charlie Manson, or George Carlin, or Swami, or Diploid, or Johnny Cash, My best guess is I don't.  :grin: :heart:



I am not guessing. Ive taken the red pill (it wasn't LSD  :sad:) and have had direct experience with what i am talking about. But i am no where near total realization, nor am i completely beyond doubt. Also i have yet to develop enough confidence or certainty, to teach or converse about what i know, face to face with people, hence why i express my present views on this forum. Sometimes my present view maybe completely beyond doubt and at other times this may not be the case, but i try not to speak (most of the time) about what i am currently doubtful of, and I'm always attempting to communicate clearly what i already know with some degree of clarity and certainty.

But, definitely, sometimes, i do give my best guess, when i think it may still be of some benefit, even if my degree of certainty is not very high at all, thats just the way things are sometimes. You can choose whetehr you wish to believe me or not, that's everyone's choice, but i cannot say for certain that i know the 'truth' beyond all doubt, so, like you, i am still very much within the human condition, and would nenver expect anyone to accept what i say on face value, without examining the facts and realizing the truth, or fallicy of what i say for themselves.

So, the thing is, that from the point of view of the majority (who are mostly insane), the sane man appears to be totally insane (out of the norm) hence the term "Crazy Wisdom".

Remember that next time you see one of those "crazy people", don't judge to quickly, because he/she might actually have some sanity to communicate, or at the very least, they may be more happy than most. :lol:


--------------------

Edited by Sinbad (06/25/05 07:47 AM)

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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Swami]
    #4335263 -

I am always amused by these debates. It so often ends up in a black or white, yes or no, stalemate. Sides are drawn and little exploration takes place.

I find Tim Leary and Lilly to be of great value to me. Terrance and Castanada too Swami. But I don't need to believe in everything they said or agree with it to take something valuable home. I have had experiences that match up with what they have said here and there, and they have got me thinking about new areas to explore.

Often these people are misquoted and taken out of context by their supporters as much as their detractors. Often they don't claim ultimate truth but are testing and questioning new waters. And of course someone comes along and loves something about it and immediately uses it as the basis for their new "religion".

So Swami if after reading these guys you find no truth or validity to what they say. I would conclude you have some personal reason for your post other than exploring the ideas of these two men. It might be better to pick a statement you agree or disagree with from them and in the spirit of exploring S&P, debate that with an open mind. :mushroom2: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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