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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Phluck]
    #1413895 -

Timothy Leary is one of the major figures of modern psychedelic history whether you like him or not. I don't think he was a saint or a genius, but I do admire how he was able to express his own signal of novelty into a conservative culture that was yearning for some of the radical freedom of which he was a part. Even if the revolutions of consciousness didn't happen exactly as he imagined they would, here we are, from all over the planet, having a discussion on a board devoted to psychedelic mushrooms-a future that Leary would have been proud to embrace.

While I have read many criticisms above, it doesn't seem to me that the critics here have actually read any of his books. I'm sure that if they did, they would have many more complaints about him, because he was quite a wacky character in many ways, but they might also find some of his gems such as his model of consciousness evolution, which is surprisingly similar to the modern scholarly work of Ken Wilber, although much less sophisticated. They may also find admiration for the ideas that life and politics and sex and consciousness can all be approached as if these are fun things, that we can create a world we want to live in, that running on autopilot and being a nonquestioning hive member is not the only possibility.

Was Leary great?

I think I would have gotten along well with him.

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: EvilGir]
    #1414084 -

.



--------------------
What?

Edited by Zero7a1 (03/27/03 02:44 PM)

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Phluck]
    #1414173 -

I've been 'accused' of being an intellectual since the mid 1970's, which was somewhat dissapointing to me even then because someone who IS an intellectual is quite different from an intellectual person. To BE an intellectual means that one has a rather one-sided identification with the faculty of intellection. It is not a whole or fully rounded personality. Such individuals 'live in their heads,' and are frequently out of touch with their bodies - which in turn means that they are out of touch with the full range of emotions, and/or they are out of touch with bodily health (the word health derives from a word for wholeness). I am not an intellectual in these negative ways, but I do possess a fairly high functioning intellect. Those who identify with intellect primarily (and Tim might be included here, although he was also very identified with his sexuality), have a tendency towards arrogance, pride, airs of superiority.

Becoming whole has nothing to do with the abandonment of rational thought, it has to do with the further addition of trans-rational faculties which include types of spiritual (transpersonal) awareness. I have been able to Ace a class in Boolian algebra (symbolic logic), and still maintain non-rational (not irrational) states of consciousness: religious belief, prayer, psychedelic experiences on the conscious continuum - dreams, reveries, fantasies on the unconscious continuum.

I am not "looking down," I am 'looking at.' Health is, as I said above, a correlate of wholeness. I do not need to be cautioned about alcohol use, which in Dr. Leary's life could be problematic, since he was a former classmate of one of my professor's husband, and was known to "ruin parties" according to her. No one can say anything positive about tobacco. It seems to me that you are simply judging my perception, not merely defending Dr. Leary's vices. If you cannot tell from my post that I had respect for the man, let me say plainly that I saw him as rather brave in much of what he did. I agree with Dr. Albert Hofmann that Tim Leary did much to harm the psychedelic movement with his lax attitude for kids, which was bound to piss off conservative America, but I respected the man. I may not have liked his disparaging remarks about Dr. Alpert 'wrapping himself up like a hairy cocoon,' with regard to the transformation via Yoga into Ram Dass, but I liked Tim Leary, shortcomings and all.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Cracka_X]
    #1414240 -

Im gonna come back and read the rest of the responses in this thread later.
But from the first few I just want to say anyone that dares to look within and question the world hs my respect.
although the manifestations of any realization are seemingly the point.
Realization is key

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: shaggy101]
    #1414462 -

But from the first few I just want to say anyone that dares to look within and question the world hs my respect.

I like this ^  :wink:

Tim was a great man just because he had the balls to confront society about how we live in a world with ways forced upon us. He saw that he was an individual living in a place full of sheep. I'm glad he did what he didn't have to do.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (03/27/03 12:39 PM)

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: evlovevlove]
    #1414543 -

Timothy Leary is a rat.


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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Zahid]
    #1414604 -

You are opposed to everything I believe in. You scare me.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Zahid]
    #1414645 -

There's a lot of bad communication going on.

DRUGS ARE BAD FOR YOUR FUCKING BODY GOD DAMNIT AND IF YOU CAN'T ACCEPT IT THEN AT LEAST I KNOW WHO'S WRONG!!!

I don't understand at all. What the fuck could you possibly mean by "drugs"? Drugs are bad.. what the fuck is a drug? Your muscles were sore? How about the control group? Were their muscles sore? I've had this argument with you before haven't I? Please remember that your experience does count as a scientific study, and completely lacks credibility as proof of anything. My experience has been very different with mushrooms, and my experience is equally valid as yours. The reason I choose my experience as the truth over yours is that I'm not ignorant enough to classify all "drugs" under any single category ie: good or bad. Your doing this makes me think you have an emotional, irrational agenda to convince yourself that you're following the right path, so your judgements are likely clouded.

I wish your would read responses to your posts, cause you're causing me to repeat myself, and you're also repeating points I've shot down.

Zero71a:

My father was an alcholic, and he died when i was 9.

sounds like you're biased by negative experiences.. I have a completely different point of view on drugs and life. For example:

drugs make you think things are nice yes... almost like a joke. but life isnt a joke and its very real, if you take it for granted you will be swept away fast. the longer you stay in the river of forgefullness, the harder it will be to get back out.

I think life is a joke. It's the only explanation as far as I can see. Your statements have no relevance for me, because they make no sense. I come from a totally different background, with a totally different, no less valid point of view. In my experience, and as applied to my own life by me, you're totally wrong. Thanks for your concern, though.

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1414776 -

i hope this clears things up





--------------------
What?

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Zahid]
    #1414802 -

He wasn't a rat.

He gave the government information on the men who helped break him out of prison. This information led to no arrests. What does that tell you about the quality of this information.

If you don't think Leary could have gotten away with this, you're mistaken. When Leary first got to prison he was made to take a psychology test of some sort. Leary invented this test. So he knew exactly what to say in order to get into the place with minimal security.



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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Learyfan]
    #1415084 -

thats a neat picture

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1415359 -

"Those who identify with intellect primarily (and Tim might be included here, although he was also very identified with his sexuality), have a tendency towards arrogance, pride, airs of superiority. "

I've seen the same traits manifest itself in spiritual leaders of all forms, although perhaps you'd argue that this is really just the opposite extreme. Even the Ram Das' proclamations that he had risen to a level of conciousness superior to that of those that need psychedelics seems pretty arrogant to me.

"I am not an intellectual in these negative ways, but I do possess a fairly high functioning intellect."

Would these other intellectuals you speak of claim that they were intellectuals in these "negative ways? I don't mean this as a direct attack on you, but there are undoubtably people on these boards who have thought that some of your posts may have been arrogant, condescending, or unecessarily cryptic.

Leary lived 76 years. That's fairly old, as old as, or older, than many people who do their best to adhere to the healthiest lifestyles.

Did Leary drink more than necessary on occasion? Probably, but it doesn't seem to have had much effect on his health. Was it smoking that killed him? Likely not. Was he an asshole at times? Probably, but what well respected person wasn't. It's rare to find a famous thinker who wasn't a jerk-off now and then.

As you said, Leary wasn't perfect, but he wasn't less of a human being than many other philosophers.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: ]
    #1415882 -

Thanks

[image]http://www.summeroflove.org/images/altman/tet.a.tete.sm.jpeg[/image]


--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Learyfan]
    #1416602 -

dr leary toured the lecture circuit as a "stand-up philosopher" :wink: ...
i met him a few times in cleveland and once at starwood festival (doings sponsored by the chameleon club & the association for consciousness exploration)(it was at starwoodfest that tim first realized that  he was a pagan :smile: ...)
he struck me as quite a charismatic character, plenty of smarts, & not afraid to use that ol' irish blarney to his advantage...
as to what he revealed to government interrogators following his capture in switzerland (after a couple years on the lam post-prison break), well the info he fed to the feds about the brotherhood of eternal love and the weather underground did not tell them anything they didn't already know...
when he arrived at harvard, there was already an ongoing psychedelic research project going on (with people like huxley, osmond, and other big names in the early psychedelic culture on board), & they were worried that this crew-cut clinical psychologist might be a "little too square" to get with it... heh...
(in osmond's _understanding understanding_ , he staes that a person with leary's personality type is NOT one who should be dabbling with psychedelics, since he was already of the novelty-embracing character, not to mention being more than a bit of the iconoclast, to boot...)
as to tim's "expulsion" from harvard (& academia in general), well, much of that may have been due to andy weil's almost muckracking article for the campus newspaper... tho' the marsh chapel good friday divinity school experiment may have been the straw that broke the camel's back as far as the harvard board of regents was concerned...
~
well, i could say more, but i've said it before...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: gnrm23]
    #1416845 -

Anyone who has/had a problem with Ken Kesey can't be great... IMHO.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1417913 -

> Anyone who has/had a problem with Ken Kesey can't be
> great... IMHO
--
For what's it worth, Leary claimed in *Flashbacks* that Wolfe made more out of that incident than was really there, and Ken Kesey told me the same during one of our conversations.
--
Cheers,
Cliff


--------------------
SUDDEN DECOMPRESSION MAY OCCUR

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Walkaway]
    #1417914 -

> No one can say anything positive about tobacco
--
I can, and will. Funny how you "entheogen" lot are quick to forget which drug is the most widely used shamanic "ally" in the world...
--
Cheers,
Cliff


--------------------
SUDDEN DECOMPRESSION MAY OCCUR

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Cracka_X]
    #1417992 -

Quote:
Timothy Leary did what? Dwelve into understanding LSD? He was a Harvard professor until after using many students or paying them to be a guinea pig in his experiements. More n more students and many would come back and MANY students dropped out and fried their brains from the man's goal of understanding it? Fucking Harvard University! It isn't what it is today, but back then it wasn't like o yea you graduated from harvard, more like OH SHIT YOU'RE A HARVARD GRADUATE GOD DAMN YOU'RE SPECIAL. You know what I'm trying to say. He did bring about a bigger understanding of it and some philosophy, BUT FOR WHAT??? To me it seems to have costed the education and future of many of this planet's great minds and flushed them down a psychidelic drain.

That's what I think, what're your thoughts?





You too should donate your brain to science. I guess you didnt know but those who expirimented with LSD had their IQ increased by at least 10%. Maybe you should try it, that'll cure femenine stupidity out of you bitch.

On the topic, Leary was one of the most important scientist who lived on this planet. And if you had at least 2 brain cells frictioning together effectivly you would find the tallest building and rid the world of your stupidity by jumping from it.

Edited by Weedless (03/31/03 06:29 AM)

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: ]
    #1417993 -

explain all the students that dropped out of Harvard then.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Timothy Leary wasn't a great man. [Re: Cracka_X]
    #1418179 -

'explain all the students that dropped out of Harvard then. '

I think because they realized that they had a life of their own to live after LSD, and that pompus school pricks (instructors and students) of that University especially were arrogant bastards who had little care for others. That kind of envronment would suck to have to have to wade through. AND they probably realized that they had to live in the moment, thus they stopped wasting their time in this reality by doing trivial things.

(imo)


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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