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Deviate
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Re: Interest in Timothy Leary reemerging? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5913213 - 07/29/06 09:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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fireworks_god said:
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Deviate said: [so we'd be posting at "planet mushroom" or "shroom world".
Speculation. You cannot propose to know what will happen when one removes a signifigant catalyst out of the equation. For all we know, without Timothy Leary, psychadelics might have been studied a bit and forgotten about. Who knows?
my point was that avenues for discussion reguarding psychoactive compounds would still exist.
My point is that you don't know that, nor could you. The existance of this avenue of discussion regarding psychoactive compounds results from that which has preceded it. It would not be what it is if a social awareness and practice of consuming psychoactive compounds were not around. When one realizes the signifigant role Timothy Leary has had in promoting social awareness of psychadelics and their subsequent consumption, it makes it such that one cannot assuredly proclaim such a place would exist without Timothy Leary.
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if youre just saying that if things didn't happen the way they did then things wouldn't have turned out the way they have, that's obvious.
If it were that obvious, then you would not deny the role that Timothy Leary has had in the history of psychadelics. You propose that it would have all happened anyways, without him, but it happened with him, partially as a result of him. He played a role, thus, it "all wouldn't have happened without him". If it were that obvious, one would recognize his role.
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but i dont see why it's relevant.
Because you assert that cause and effect is obvious but deny the cause that has had an effect.
Peace.
i never said "it would have all happened anyway", i said he didn't invent psychedelics. native american indians have been using them for thousands of years. several other westerners have studied them, even before leary. whether leary did more good or bad is a matter of opinion. just because we dont know what would have happened if leary hadnt done what we did, doesn't mean we must all aprove of what he did and become fans of his.
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EquilibriuM
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Re: Interest in Timothy Leary reemerging? [Re: Deviate]
#5913631 - 07/30/06 12:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Leary let US KNOW. Sure Indians this and Natives that... but not western mainstream culture.
I wonder, had Leary never existed, would I know psychedelics?
I'm not so sure that I would, or many people here for that matter...
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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Deviate
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Re: Interest in Timothy Leary reemerging? [Re: EquilibriuM]
#5913836 - 07/30/06 02:20 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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anyone who took the time to learn about other cultures would. anyone who had any academic interest whatsoever in drugs would.
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Silversoul
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Re: Interest in Timothy Leary reemerging? [Re: Deviate]
#5914104 - 07/30/06 04:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Deviate said: anyone who took the time to learn about other cultures would. anyone who had any academic interest whatsoever in drugs would.
And that would leave out millions of people who could potentially benefit from psychedelics. First of all, taking an interest in other cultures doesn't translate into a desire to partake in their customs. You don't see anthropologists going around with big disks in their lips. Second, since psychedelics are so radically different from other types of drugs, I'm not so sure that the type of person who takes an acedemic interest in "drugs" would be the type of person that could benefit most from taking psychedelics. It took a generation of psychedelic gurus to show people the benefits of psychedelics. In the short term, it may have led to them being made illegal, but I suspect that in the long term, humanity may be better off for having had these Prometheus's of the 60's.
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Deviate
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Re: Interest in Timothy Leary reemerging? [Re: Silversoul]
#5914180 - 07/30/06 05:40 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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And that would leave out millions of people who could potentially benefit from psychedelics. First of all, taking an interest in other cultures doesn't translate into a desire to partake in their customs. You don't see anthropologists going around with big disks in their lips.
actually, anthropologists are often very interested in partaking of the customs of the cultures they study but that's beside the point. i was saying that people would still know of the existence of psychedelics. and its not like they were restricted to foreign cultures anyway, as was already mentioned ken kesey was introducing them to people as well as the fact that some of the more prominent psychedelic researchers like alexander shulgin were also using and writing about psychedelics before leary.
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Second, since psychedelics are so radically different from other types of drugs, I'm not so sure that the type of person who takes an acedemic interest in "drugs" would be the type of person that could benefit most from taking psychedelics. It took a generation of psychedelic gurus to show people the benefits of psychedelics. In the short term, it may have led to them being made illegal, but I suspect that in the long term, humanity may be better off for having had these Prometheus's of the 60's.
and you're entitled to that suspicion but you can't expect that everyone should share it with you. there are people involved with psychedelics who think humanity would be better off without the antics of timothy leary.
Edited by Deviate (07/30/06 05:42 AM)
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Silversoul
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Re: Interest in Timothy Leary reemerging? [Re: Deviate]
#5914215 - 07/30/06 06:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Deviate said: and you're entitled to that suspicion but you can't expect that everyone should share it with you. there are people involved with psychedelics who think humanity would be better off without the antics of timothy leary.
And just what "antics" would these be? Surely you're not talking about him bringing psychedelics to the masses, as you do not condemn Ken Kesey for doing the same. Perhaps you're referring to the fact that he testified before Congress as to why he felt psychedelics should remain legal. Or perhaps you're referring to him going to the Supreme Court and getting the Marijuana Tax Act repealed. Or maybe you mean the Good Friday Experiment, which gave scientific evidence of the capacity for hallucinogens to induce spiritual experiences. As far as I can tell, his "antics" included promoting mind expansion and having the courage to speak his mind about what was going on in the world.
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Interest in Timothy Leary reemerging? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5914223 - 07/30/06 06:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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fireworks_god said: No one is considered to be a perfect human. Perfection cannot be attained.
Peace.
Yes it can, because there are all kinds of perfections, each has its own criteria.
If your criteria for a car is that it's old, broken and dirty, and it is, then it's a perfect car
I just wanted to know what does Icelander blaim Leary for. I mean you don't say something like, sure he's not perfect, unless you have something specific on your mind
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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fireworks_god
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Re: Interest in Timothy Leary reemerging? [Re: Deviate]
#5914703 - 07/30/06 11:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Deviate said: i never said "it would have all happened anyway", i said he didn't invent psychedelics.
So what? Psychadelics didn't just automatically become known and used as they do right now. Society became aware of them and used them as they did as a result of Timothy Leary.
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native american indians have been using them for thousands of years. several other westerners have studied them, even before leary.
And yet use on a widespread, societal level only began as Timothy Leary exposed the country to them, as he did. Timothy Leary played an active, crucial role that others did not, a role that could not have been replicated without Timothy Leary.
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whether leary did more good or bad is a matter of opinion. just because we dont know what would have happened if leary hadnt done what we did, doesn't mean we must all aprove of what he did and become fans of his.
The whole point isn't that dense, so it shouldn't be too difficult to realize. This isn't a matter of judging his works or "becoming fans of him". You specifically denied to acknowledge the signifigant role that Timothy Leary has played in the proliferation of psychadelics, endlessly speculating that, without him, psychadelics would still have reached the same level they exist at now.
Simply recognize that he did play such a role. Reality demonstrates this, and there is no point of deluding onself through speuclation, much akin to such like "If John Wilkes Booth had not shot Abraham Lincoln, someone else would have". It is faulty reasoning that does not reflect reality.
You've cast doubt on the role Timothy Leary has played in advancing understanding, awareness, and usage of psychadelics. I could honestly give a fuck less what you think of him, but you have made invalid statements and I fully intend on exposing this, even as you continue to avoid the point.
So, apparently some remote, indigenous cultures used psychadelics, and a few scholars were aware of them. Then Timothy Leary tried them, began a research project at Harvard that gained a lot of public attention, which ended in controversy, then created a foundation, continued experiments at the Millbrook estate, resulting in several federal raids... then founded a new religion centered around and named after LSD... started touring college campuses with multimedia performances... uttered a famous phrase, developed a model of consciousness, appealed a case agansit him which resulted in the Marijuana Tax Act repealed... ended up in prison, escaped, and fled to Switzerland... etc. etc. etc. etc... Not to mention, of course, all of his creative works, the creative works of others influenced by him, the entire movement and social scene that developed as a result of this single man's actions....
It sounds as though he personally brought acid into the public spotlight throughout his life. This is how it happened, and no amount of speculation of how things would have came to this point anyways can deny this.
Timothy Leary signifigantly benefited the advancement of psychadelics. Fact. End of discussion.
Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Fospher
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Re: Interest in Timothy Leary reemerging? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5916491 - 07/30/06 09:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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"We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled that 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel. "
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Icelander
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Re: Interest in Timothy Leary reemerging? [Re: Fospher]
#5916610 - 07/30/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel. "
Not all of us thought that. Tim didn't either IMO. All those "failures" were failures LSD or no. That's always been true.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Fospher
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Re: Interest in Timothy Leary reemerging? [Re: Icelander]
#5916626 - 07/30/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said: All those "failures" were failures LSD or no. That's always been true.
Rephrase that sentence, and what's always been true?
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Interest in Timothy Leary reemerging? [Re: Icelander]
#5916991 - 07/30/06 11:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel. "
Not all of us thought that. Tim didn't either IMO. All those "failures" were failures LSD or no. That's always been true.
Right. I never understood why Hunter said this about Leary, of all people. Kesey was the one crashing around, not cautious old Leary. Aside from all that "create your own religion" noise, he seemed like one of the least spiritually-orient psychedelic advocates of his time. Plus, Leary addressed this point specifically in the fourth chapter of High Priest once he realized LSD wouldn't instantly make a person act a certian way.
"It destroyed my hopes that the mushroom pill was an automatic love-revelation pill... There seemed to be equal amounts of God and Devil (or whatever you want to call them) within the nervous system. Psychedelic drugs just open the door to the Magic Theatre, and the stages and dramas you encounter depend on what you are looking for, your state of mind when you begin... Psychedelic drugs didn't solve any problems. They just magnified, mythified, clarified to jewel-like sharpness the basic problem of life and evolution... I began to feel the frustration of the guy who invent the wheel at that horrid moment when he real-ized it could be harnessed to any damnable human game..."
It is interesting that people denounce Timothy Leary for cooperating with the FBI, but no one seems to denounce Alex Shulgin for working with the DEA.
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