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InvisibleSwami
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Tim Leary and John C. Lilly
    #4331374 - 06/24/05 06:46 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

If the psychedelic experience is indicative of some great untapped potential or a peek into higher realms, then why did Leary not perceive the damage he was doing by his approach to spread the word?

Why did Lilly become mentally unstable requiring hospitalization?

Yes, these are only two people, but the great promise of social change failed to take place in any arena other than possibly the arts.

These things seem to point toward mere disturbing of neurological processes, not increased clarity and insight.


Edited by Swami (06/24/05 07:38 AM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Swami]
    #4331402 - 06/24/05 07:29 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I agree! There is no shortcut to the higher realms of existence. As stated in Buddhist scripture.

"By morality one gains heaven,
by meditation the fortune of Brahma,
By awareness of things as they are
one comes to the state of Nirvana"

What leary was suggesting was that LSD is some kind of divine portal into the havenly realms or even Nirvana. :lol:

His psuedo philosophy about such subtsances caputered the minds of human beings in an age of spiritual upheaval in the west, and many became mentally unstable through over use of such substances, thinking, as it says in the film Fear and Loathing in Las vegas "that they could buy peace, love and understanding, for $3 a hit.". The point being that LSD can certainly make you "think" you have gained enlightenment or access to some spiritual realm, but really its just messing around with your senses and brain chemistry in a way that has uncertain results on the individual, usually making the indivudal see, feel and sense things in a different way, form the usual society norm. Which can, in some cases, trigger acute psycosis, as well as contribute to other minor mental distrubances.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (06/24/05 12:39 PM)


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Offlinemikeytwice
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Sinbad]
    #4331558 - 06/24/05 10:04 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

People often shit on the way Leary did things. I personally think he was largely all charisma and con-artist, but I don't regret the fact that he preached the LSD gospel. If it were up to Huxley et al., only a select few would be tripping. With the mass use of LSD came many casualties, but also came (and still comes!) much good.

I still think that Leary as a person and a writer didn't know shit about dick as far as moving "spiritually forward" or what have you. He was one of the early ones to write about the sort of things you experience on LSD, however, such as some weird consciousness of cellular memory and possibilites of metaprogramming.

What I like most about Leary & Lilly is their concept of metaprogramming. They didn't provide much of a specific method, but just posited it's possibility. I do happen to think that through tripping, one can work to consciously change oneself. Many people who know me will state that I've changed and calmed down much since I started tripping, and hopefully this has been in a good way. Whether these changes would have happen'd "naturally" (hah!) with age, I cannot tell.


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Invisiblewinelover
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Swami]
    #4331592 - 06/24/05 10:28 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

we were all born under the holy water in the sixties and all went in different ways,acid was the catalyst to the new age we are all now apart of , one mans bain was anothers virtue,I am so glad I was there and what I am now.Timothy was then our guru but we all move on.. or do we


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: winelover]
    #4331930 - 06/24/05 12:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

for an interesting take on tim & acid (from some folks who met him when he arrived at the harvard psych department fresh from kaiser hospital systems), check out humphrey osmond's book _understanding understanding_
(based on their analysis of tim's personality, his blend of cerebromorph, mesomorph, & endomorph types, tim should not have done psychedelics at all (or at most, only one time)...


~
& doc lilly said it straight up, he was seduced by K...

~

but of the thousands of folks eventually turned on by leary, by hollingshead, by hubbard, by hoffman (a select euro crew, but hand-picked by doc H & friends :wink: ...), by janinger, by hoffer & osmond (hey, they turned on bill w. (founder of AA) & aldous huxley), & by owsley & the family acid labs... i think more good than harm was done to the gaian/human meme matrix...



of course, ymmv...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Edited by gnrm23 (06/24/05 01:01 PM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4332121 - 06/24/05 01:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Tripping can provide a different perspective for people who have surcummed to societal conditioning, and are seeking an altered perspective on things. It can help people relax into the knowlege (or completely flip out in the knowlege) that reality is'nt really as solid, serious, and at all what it appears to be. So i suspect that tripping probably has benefited you in some way, but for the majority of others i know, it has done them much more harm than good in the long run.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: gnrm23]
    #4332231 - 06/24/05 01:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

that's easy. even if psychedelics provide increased clarity and insight while the subject is under the influence, only a very select few are able to apply what they learn to their normal conciousness. i don't know what you mean by a "mere disturbing of neurological processes." alcohol provides a "mere disturbing of neurological processes" yet this disruption causes people to experience less anxiety subjectively while under the influence. similarly the disturbing of neurological processes caused by psychedelics also causes people to experience things differently subjectively and the claim is that this can often lead to greater clarity or insight. for example, yesterday i was playing a video game with my little cousin and neither of us could figure out how to do a particular move, it seemed like we had tried everything possible. after getting high i tried it again and immediately i saw the one thing i hadn't tried and figured it out. i've had this sort of thing happen to me countless times with marijuana. there is no question that it increases my powers of observation in certain ways and impairs me in other ways.

just like the way taking apart a car can help you figure out how it works, disturbing the brains neurobiology (with any drug) can help you understand how the brain works to begin with. the unique usefulness of psychedelics stems from the nature of the way they alter the mind while leaving the subject conciouss.

i've seen countless real world examples of psychedelics leading to greater insight in myself and a small number of other people. i also believe they can lead to insanity and instability. all they do is alter conciousness, who can predict exactly what effects that will have on someone?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Sinbad]
    #4332275 - 06/24/05 01:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
The point being that LSD can certainly make you "think" you have gained enlightenment or access to some spiritual realm, but really its just messing around with your senses and brain chemistry in a way that has uncertain results on the individual, usually making the indivudal see, feel and sense things in a different way, form the usual society norm. Which can, in some cases, trigger acute psycosis, as well as contribute to other minor mental distrubances.




:lol: That perfectly describes any experience or situation that one may be exposed to in the path known as life. :lol:


:smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4332360 - 06/24/05 02:17 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Really? Can eating an orange make you think you've attained enlightnement and accessed some higher heavenly realm? If so, im going down the corner shop right now, to ask Appu if he has any of those "oranges" in stock!  :wink: :lol:


--------------------


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Sinbad]
    #4332367 - 06/24/05 02:20 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

of course it can but it's far less likely to than LSD.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Sinbad]
    #4332371 - 06/24/05 02:20 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Really? Can eating an orange make you think you've attained enlightnement and accessed some higher heavenly realm? If so, im going down the corner shop right now, to ask Appu if he has any of those "oranges" in stock!  :wink: :lol:




Its certainly possible. There lies no meaning in any experience on its own, so the meaning we derive from it could manifest in any infinite manner. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4332389 - 06/24/05 02:25 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So what your saying is that its possible to delude ourselves into believing anything, at any time, without limit? Hmm, i tend to agree with you there, but only from the point of view of insanity of course.  :nut:


--------------------


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Sinbad]
    #4332469 - 06/24/05 02:52 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Really? Can eating an orange make you think you've attained enlightnement and accessed some higher heavenly realm? If so, im going down the corner shop right now, to ask Appu if he has any of those "oranges" in stock!  :wink: :lol:




I've seen people trying to attain enlightenment just be smelling an orange :eek:. I've heard it gives you luck when playing poker :wink: ...

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Sinbad]
    #4332624 - 06/24/05 03:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
So what your saying is that its possible to delude ourselves into believing anything, at any time, without limit? Hmm, i tend to agree with you there, but only from the point of view of insanity of course.  :nut:




Yes Sinbad, and the deluded ones think they are not, and are sure to tell others what the truth is. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Icelander]
    #4332649 - 06/24/05 03:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
So what your saying is that its possible to delude ourselves into believing anything, at any time, without limit? Hmm, i tend to agree with you there, but only from the point of view of insanity of course.  :nut:




Yes Sinbad, and the deluded ones think they are not, and are sure to tell others what the truth is. :lol:




And what of the sane people? Do they say nothing? Are they silent? Or do they try and help dsipel the delusions of the insane by any means possible? Maybe some of them even give up and join in, in the game of insanity, becuase its the easier (less compassionate) option? If you knew the real truth of the situation, would you stay silent? Or would you try to unplug more people from the matrix of their delusion? Knowing the Truth is beyond belief. it all comes down to whether you are willing to take the blue pill, or the red pill.

Take this as you will.  :tongue:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Sinbad]
    #4332675 - 06/24/05 03:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

If you knew the real truth of the situation, would you stay silent?
____________________________________________________________________

Yes dear friend Sinbad. If I knew the real truth. But how can I know if I know what the "real" truth is? I am giving it my best guess but I am not foolish enough to declair I know the whole/real truth. That would be delusion. You may choose to claim that you or someone you believe in knows the real truth. But my guess is like everyone else you are taking your best shot and nothing more.

In ten years your real truth may have changed. Unless of course you are fully realized. Are you? :smile: :heart: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Sinbad]
    #4332753 - 06/24/05 04:20 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
So what your saying is that its possible to delude ourselves into believing anything, at any time, without limit? Hmm, i tend to agree with you there, but only from the point of view of insanity of course.  :nut:




Sure, the possibillity is there, as long as the mind operates with programming that allows this possibillity.

Of course, most people have a mind that is programmed in such a manner as to build a consistent method of defining meaning, based on patterns and tendencies of that person, which tends to prevent such a possibillity. It is this that determines the meaning for an experience much moreso than it is the experience itself defining that meaning. A person's meaning will be more limited and based on past experience and preconceived notions than an insane possibillity of any given meaning being applicable.

The point of even addressing this is that different people define for themselves different meanings and thereby different experiences than other people do in the same and similar situations, based on their past experiences and the meanings defined when met with past experiences. The use of entheogens and psychadelics will have different results for different people, depending on the dynamics of the personalities and minds of each person. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Icelander]
    #4332810 - 06/24/05 04:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If you knew the real truth of the situation, would you stay silent?
____________________________________________________________________

Yes dear friend Sinbad. If I knew the real truth. But how can I know if I know what the "real" truth is? I am giving it my best guess but I am not foolish enough to declair I know the whole/real truth. That would be delusion. You may choose to claim that you or someone you believe in knows the real truth. But my guess is like everyone else you are taking your best shot and nothing more.

In ten years your real truth may have changed. Unless of course you are fully realized. Are you? :smile: :heart: :mushroom2:




So your answer is "Yes" you would stay silent? Oh what a compassionate person you must be that when all others are suffering deeply, and you look through the bars of thier self-made prison cells, and think to yourself "Well its there fault, they did it to themselves". And walk away uneffected by their pain.

Since when did i claim that i knew the whole truth? Or even that i know someone who knows "it". Not that there is really any any essential "self" or "other" to know, hence the term "emptiness". :lol:

But the term emptiness has a negative conetation within western language and society, so im considering using the word, infinity instead, although infinty descirbes the limitless potenitialty, it does'nt really convey the selfless aspect either, so ill pobably just use the words empty/infinity until i can find a better word to use. Oh how i folly with concepts. :lol:

You can know whether your truth is delusion or not by examining "who" knows this truth, and discovering beyond doubt the falicy of this delusion of "self" that seeminlgy knows other things. No i am not fully realized yet, but im certainly confident that im on the correct path to full realization. If by giving my best shot, you mean sharing knowlege from my present view, then yes, this is what i am doing. As spiritual devlopment progresses, i may be able to share, expand upon and percieve new demensions of understanding upon my original foundations.

Im pretty sure of one thing though, at this present point in time. The truth of the situation, like the nature of space, is the only situation, that does not change. :wink:


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (06/24/05 05:10 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: Sinbad]
    #4332823 - 06/24/05 04:49 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I usually regard everyone who 'knows whats REALLY going on' as a filthly pimp.


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


Edited by MushmanTheManic (06/24/05 04:54 PM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Tim Leary and John C. Lilly [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4332874 - 06/24/05 05:04 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------


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Amazon Shop for: Aldous Huxley

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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