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Re: retarded people [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4202037 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
speaking within this karma philosophy, It's not the karma that damages the body, it is karma that puts you into a body that has been damaged by lack of oxygene.
It's like a catalog of bodies, and everyone gets what they deserve




If a soul did well in it's last incarnation......couldn't it choose to be a retarded person?

Wouldn't that be a challenging existence?


Do you think that you could cope w/being retarded....w/out killing yourself?


It takes a strong spirit to cope with a disability as tough as retardation can be


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: retarded people [Re: niteowl]
    #4202063 -

Do you think that you could cope w/being retarded....w/out killing yourself?

Suicide is very low among the mentally challenged. I took a real chance choosing to be born as a genius.  :grin:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: retarded people [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4202615 -

if reincarnation is for real, then it's probably not so much a punishment someone lays on each soul as it is a choice each soul individually makes about it's next reincarnation....

I don't get that, sorry.

When we observe any kind of process in nature, we first try to explain it as an impersonal natural law, a cause-and-effect relationship. Why would this be different here?

A heavy consciousness, imprinted with negative, hateful qualities, will, at death, sink down like a stone dropped into water, while a light consciousness, gone beyond the world, relaxed, unobsessive, will rise into the highest heavens like a helium-filled balloon. There is no higher being's judgement involved, nor is it a voluntary choice.

Consider the simile of the mushroom trip. When you down the five grams, you will either have a bad trip, or a good trip. This is not to be chosen by God, nor by yourself. A bad trip is most often caused by obsessive clinging to personality issues, which is again rooted in a lack of virtue. But even if one has acquired negative qualities for a long time, one may prevent a bad trip by overriding one's condition through short-time well thinking. Good luck. On rare occassions, a bad trip may be caused by external circumstances, so there is also a random factor involved. Let us better stop being so god-damn naive about the workings of karma, and remember that death is a lot more psychedelic than any other drug we have ever taken.

The issue is whether karma only works in choosing one's general afterworld (such as heaven, human, or hell), or if it also determines the properties one possesses as a being when reborn there. Provided you get reborn as a human, does your good karma give you good genes?

I don't think so. The common position is that the association of consciousness with the material body takes place at conception, or shortly after - 49 days according to Tibetan Buddhism (and according to the research of Rick Strassman, too). It is simply not possible to determine whether an embryo possesses a genetical illness at that early point; not even spirit can recognize that. This should be even more so when the defect is not genetical, but caused later on through lack of oxygen. The claim that being retarded is the result of bad karma therefore requires an omniscient higher being, and is incompatible with the idea of karma as a natural law.

Okay, that was the rational part of my argumentation. I will now do the irrational thing and support my position with scripture. I recognize that this regularly pisses off a lot of people in here, who adhere to the healthy S&P tradition of being unambiguously against all kinds of religion. I'll do that anyway, for two reasons. The first is that someone must provide the counterpoint to the boring materialistic close-minded ignorance, as well as to the fluffy new-age esoteric make-believe kind of wishful thinking, both of which this thread is a fine example for, no offense intended. There's a nice little thread in the neighbourhood, which I highly recommend, so instead of wasting your time by reading the rest of this post, I suggest you go there. The second reason is that the Pali simply rocks.

The common Theravada standpoint is that genetical defects are indeed the result of karma. It is possible to justify that point of view using the Cula-Kammavibhanga Sutta.

However, this interpretation is wrong. Here's why.

The Buddha gives seven conditions one may experience as a human being, and their respective karmic cause. Killing leads to a short next life, violence leads to being unhealthy, hateful anger leads to being ugly, envy leads to having little possessions, greed leads to being poor, being unrespectful leads to being unrespected, not asking questions leads to being stupid. At least three of them - having no possessions, being poor, being unrespected - are certainly not genetical. The other four may be genetical, or not. Consistency therefore suggests that none of them is.

Karma gives a certain conditioning, even if one manages to avoid hell. A conditioning of hate will make you lead a stressful life, which is unhealthy and shortens your lifespan. Negative qualities will make you look ugly; spirit will shine through your outer appearance. Attachment may push the thing you desire further away from you - obsessive greed is certainly not the way to aquire material wealth. If you have a conditioning of not respecting others, others will not respect you. Someone who has asked a lot of questions in a former life will be curious in early childhood, at a point in time where neural junctions are built up and intelligence is determined.

"Beings are owners of kammas, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority."

I conclude that, as always, the Buddha was correct on that issue.

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Re: retarded people [Re: Nomad]
    #4202754 -

i was taught that if youre nice to someone just for the reason of getting something in return...it wouldn't work. but if you nice to someone cause thats whats in your heart, and you would do it even if you didn't get something out of it. then you actually might get something out of it, but you wouldn't really care.

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