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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well
    #3943767 -

Again in this post I'm attempting to give my final stance on egolessness, This is not a thread for debating the term 'egolessness', alto you are welcome to give your view on what it means to you.

There are two stages to understanding egolessness. In the first stage we perceive that ego does not exist as a solid entity, that it is impermanent, constantly changing, that is was our concepts that made it seem solid. So we conclude that ego does not exist. But we still have formulated a subtle concept of egolessness, a watcher to identify with it and maintain its existence. the second stage is seeing through this subtle concept and dropping the watcher. So true egolessness is the absence of concept of egolessness. In the first stage there is a sense of someone perceiving egolessness. In the second even the perceive does not exist. In the first, we perceive that there is no fixed entity because everything is relative to something else. In the second stage there is the understanding that the notion of relativity needs a watcher to perceive it, to confirm it, which introduces another relative notion, the watcher and the watched.

The idea of egolessnes has often been used to obscure the reality of birth, suffering and death. the problem is that once we have a notion of egolessness and a notion of pain, birth and death, then we can easily entertain or justify ourselves by saying that pain does not exist because there is not ego to experience it, that birth and death do not exist because there is no one to experience them. This is just cheap escapism. The philosophy of shunyata has often been  distorted by the presentation of the idea that: "there is no one to suffer, so who cares? if you suffer it must6 be your illusion." This is pure opinion and speculation. We can read about it, we can think about it, but when we suffer can we remain indifferent? Of course not; suffering is stronger than our opinions.

A true understanding of egolessness cuts through our opinion. the absence of a notion of egolessness allows us to fully experience pain, birth and death because there are no philosophical padding's. The whole idea is that we must drop all reference points, all concepts of what is or what should be. Then it is possible to experience the uniqueness and vividness of phenomena directly. There is tremendous room to experience things, to allow experience to occur and pass away. Movement within vast space. Whatever happens, pleasure and pain, birth and death, and so forth are not interfered with, but are experienced in their fullest flavor.

We are never trapped in life, because there are constant opportunities for creativity, challenges, for improvisation. ironically by seeing clearly and acknowledging our egolessness, we may discover that suffering contains bliss, impermanence contains the earth quality of solid being. But this transcendental bliss, continuity and beingness is not based on fantasies, ideas or fears..... :heart:

Edited by egghead1 (03/20/05 11:53 AM)

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: egghead1]
    #3943915 -

Defining, or describing one's terms becomes very important when discussing these kinds of things. Physical scientists do not have to bother because everyone recognizes the same meanings for terms in physical science. Yes, Freud popularized the word 'ego' - "das Ich" - in his book The Ego and the Id, and by it he meant "a particular part of the mind characterized by special attributes and functions." Freud himself pointed out that the word 'ego' goes back at least to Nietzsche, but I digress.

The point I want to make is based on simple choice of words. Selflessless has whole different feel to it than egolessness. Freud differentiated 'self' (which encompassed more of the person) from 'ego,' but even he was not clear, and Freud was a clear writer. Without an ego, there is 'no point of view.' no point, is key here - like nodes on the intersecting fabric of space-time, that each of us is. And, if space-time and consciousness are really two sides of the same coin, then egolessness is the awareness of the Whole Universe of space-time. When people are born, a node appears on the fabric which has a limited 'point of view.' Most people want to express this metaphysical, metacosmic 'viewpoint' of the Whole knowing the Whole, but this is tantamount to GOD Knowing GOD.

Selflessness, on the other hand, more-or-less describes a human condition of Compassion, of altruism which is a 'Lesser Countanance' of GOD, acting through a 'servant of GOD' - one acting without motive of self-interest - acting out of the simple awareness of someone else's need, and that awareness is Compassionate since it acts for another without thought of personal gain - ego.

Just some thoughts on how these words effect my understanding.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: egghead1]
    #3943921 -

what do you use this "egolessness" for?


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: egghead1]
    #3944651 -

Hey red, did you read?

egghead1 said:
This is not a thread for debating the term 'egolessness', although you are welcome to give your view on what it means to you.





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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: egghead1]
    #3944657 -

you da boss!


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: egghead1]
    #3944658 -

you da boss!


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3944684 -

I just hit quick reply, this is to anyone;

What name does your mail get sent to?
Who are people saying happy birthday to when they wish you a happy birthday?
Who saw the robber get into the red car in the alley because they were the only one standing there, if you were the only one standing there?
Why did you choose chicken almondine instead of the kung pao?
Why is it that there's someone in this world that can call you "a close friend" and another can call you a "stranger".

How do we rid ourselves of all that identifies or distinguishes us as an individual from others and still function in a community? Do you want your employer to right Suzy Jones on your pay check? She might as well if you don't exist. After all, if you don't exist you didn't do the work either.

Would you want your mom and dad to say about you, "I have never seen that person before in my life, they don't exist"?

To remove all sense of self definition that gives us or identity, you'd have to move to an uninhabited Island and live alone without any contact with other people or animals and leave not a trace behind when you die to to pull that off.

I don't see how we can live and function in communities with out a self identity that distinguishes our individuality from one another. I do see that people live within a false sense of self identity. Isn't that really what we want to work on eliminating, the false ego?

If John can jump higher then all of us, then he has every right to say he is a better high jumper then us. Of course there will be someone in the group to roll there eyes when he says it and say about him, "That guy has such a large ego" like its a bad thing and he's wrong to say it. WHAT? It's the truth that he can jump higher making him better at it then the rest. Who needs to get a grip on reality, the eye roller or John?

If I "think" or "believe" I am jumping higher then him even though I am not and think I am the best high jumper in the group then I am living in a false ego. John is living in a true ego. Who most likely is going to be the one who has a problem with Johns true ego? The one with the false one of course. If I am real with myself that I can jump 3 feet and John can jump 5 then his saying he is the better high jumper shouldn't bother me. He is right and its true.

I don't see true egos as being a problem as long as they are kept in check with the truth of a self as it changes which it does. If ten years later, Joe can start jumping higher then John, then John needs to get real with the truth about Joe now being the best high jumper of the group.

I think the only time our egos cause a problem is when people are in a false sense of self and because of it, deny others from being in their truth as well.

There is yet one other problem even if everyone were living in a true ego. If they make what defines them also make them separate from the group in a way they reject themselves from it and deny others of sharing what makes them them, then the selfishness Markos brought up comes into play. A group can't function like a community when that happens either.

As an individual we are just a fractions of potential. As a group contributing our best to the group we can realize the whole of potential.

If John is the only one who can jump high enough to get the bananas and its the only food source and he doesn't share, then we are screwed. If Julie is the only one tiny and slim enough to get through the cracked boulder to get to our only source of water and she doesn't bring any back for the rest of us then we are screwed. You get the idea. This is where the selfless sharing of ego identities, what makes us us, comes into play.

This false ego play is funny when I see it;

If John gets enough bananas for all of us to adequately survive on and gets an excess for himself, are we too get mad at John for serving himself more of what he can do for himself and call him a selfish pig? How quickly did we just forget our ego truth, the self truth that, we can't jump high enough to get any and we'd starve to death with out his feeding us and sharing more then enough for us to survive on.

Just adding some vegetables to the stew!


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (03/20/05 03:11 PM)

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3944786 -

don't scramble da egg


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3944857 -

:lol: Tis a jiggy ego identity truth, I like my eggs scrambled! If I was egoless, would I even like eggs or have a preference for how I like them?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3944866 -

Why not?


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: egghead1]
    #3944903 -

How would I know that I like things or how I like them if there was no "I" to know? I suppose I am asking that to anyone who thinks we must eliminate the "I" so we can see the truth of the self.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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I would like to toast the yolk [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3944967 -

I like the sunny side up
even if I don't know who I am.
then there is the toast & the dipping into a yolk
always seem to be in the mood for a good yolk


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3945026 -

GettinJiggy,  If John can actually jump the highest, and everyone can see and measure that, at what point would it just be best that John not say a word about it so as to not put salt in the ego's of others that are trying to jump just as high, and do the best they can....?   

What part of the self would be to point out what everybody can already notice....?    Is it ego that would state such a proof as to seperate ones usefullness as being better than another's...?

(I wonder if John would be willing to share some Bananas, they sound yummy right now....!)


:heart:


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Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: egghead1]
    #3945076 -

egghead1 said:
A true understanding of egolessness cuts through our opinion. the absence of a notion of egolessness allows us to fully experience pain, birth and death because there are no philosophical padding's. The whole idea is that we must drop all reference points, all concepts of what is or what should be. Then it is possible to experience the uniqueness and vividness of phenomena directly. There is tremendous room to experience things, to allow experience to occur and pass away. Movement within vast space. Whatever happens, pleasure and pain, birth and death, and so forth are not interfered with, but are experienced in their fullest flavor.



This is the coolest thing I've ever seen you say, and you've shared a lot of interesting perspective as it is. :grin:

Center in being, not the mind. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3945225 -

I see what you are saying. Attachment to form and sensation is the ego's ambition to secure and entertain itself, trying to avoid all irritation. So we cling to our way of pleasures and possessions, we fear change or force change, we try to create a nest or playground. When you arive at the state of egolessness everything is of one taste, this is not to say that carrots and candy would taste the same, but without attachment we will be able to fully taste without opinion, neither judging form nor sensation.

For this we must surrender our hopes and expectations, as well as our fears, and march directly into disappointment, work with disappointment, go into it and make it our way of life, which is a very hard thing to do. Disappointment is a good sign of intrinsic intelligence. It cannot be compared to anything else: it is so sharp, precise, obvious and direct. If we can open, then we suddenly begin to see that our expectations are irrelevant compared with the reality of the situations we are facing. This automatically brings a feeling disappointment.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: egghead1]
    #3945277 -

The problem existing between Egghead1 and Redgreenvines is nothing new. I submit that the capacity to understand each other is one-sided. One of the modern explanations of the dilema (whether meaningful or not, quien sabe) comes from Gary Zukav (Seat of the Soul) who speaks of 5-sensory humans and multi-sensory humans. From the past we have Jesus of Nazareth phrasing it as "being born again." From the more recent past we have Bertrand Russell's 'Self must die' in his Mysticism & Logic chapter on 'A Free Man's Worship:'

"Except for those rare spirits that are born without sin, there is a cavern of darkness to be traversed before that temple can be entered. The gate of the cavern is despair, and its floor is paved with the gravestones of abandoned hopes. There Self must die; there the eagerness, the greed of untamed desire must be slain, for only so can the soul be freed from the empire of Fate. But out of the cavern the Gate of Renunciation leads again to the daylight of wisdom, by whose radiance a new insight, a new joy, a new tenderness, shine forth to gladden the pilgrim's heart."

It strikes me that the fellow who has not had the need (i.e. has not gone through a 'dark night of the soul') will not only not be able to understand the phraseology of those who have had that need, but will also maintain an ego defense system which prevents his looking in that direction. Nothing wrong with that! It simply is that being on the far side of 'that dark night' is a far more delightful place to be. When one is 'opting for humility' and letting his desire to maintain within himself a newfound serenity of spirit, peace of mind, and daily sense of 'being at home in the universe' on a daily basis, with no sense of anxiety over what happens at death, whether something or nothing, one is free to live and let the natural love which springs from humility push him into wanting to help others feel as good about being alive as he feels. What name is given to this state is completely unimportant. Jesus, I believe, called it being in heaven. Blessings - seerbeer


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Humility to Love to Service to FREEDOM

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: egghead1]
    #3945291 -

I still must ask, if one is - or can be considered the best at something, would it be "ego" itself as to even state a "truth" of reference to rank - by the "best" person at an activity....?    Would it be more mindful to perhaps enjoy the immediate success and reward of being able to provide Bananas to other people without "boasting" the truth, and then perhaps help others in trying to develop that skill within themself....?  That way, perhaps there would be a better chance of survival if something happened to John and he was not able to get the bananas any more....(?)

And, what is the term used for one's "enjoying success"  in reaping rewards (for thyself and others wellbeing in this case), without adding to the "ego"....  The word that comes to my mind is "Pride", but that doesn't "seem" like the right word, so I ask....  :smile:


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: seerbeer]
    #3945303 -

What problem are you referring to? I have never had a problem with redgreenvines nor has he a problem with me? This is your first post. What are you talking about?


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: egghead1]
    #3945325 -

egghead1 said:
I have never had a problem with redgreenvines nor has he a problem with me?


If you are not RedGreenVines, how can you claim he does not have a problem with you....?    I am not saying he does, but how do you base your conclusion....?


:sun:  :heart:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: OK now i am going to discuss 'egolessness' as well [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #3945347 -

I guess you missed the part about the one with the false ego having a problem with it. (besides, I never said how it was John would say it if he did and under what circumstances) It really doesn't matter to me.

Only a false ego of another would have a problem with it. If your truth, the truth is that you can only jump 2 feet high then what more can be expected of you? That is obvious just the same that 2 feet is your limit at the time. Your best is 2 feet high. That is the true real reality. If John wants to run around "na na na na naing" that he is the highest jumper, so what? He is. If John wants to rub it in that you eat and live because he is the only who can get to the bananas then so what? It's true.

There would be no reason to get upset, feel bad or less then him unless you were in a false sense of self that believed you could survive without John or could jump higher.

I don't know how else to explain it. Why would it bother you even if John rubbed it in your face if it was the total truth?

And where is the wound salt is being rubbed in? How are you wounded because your maximum health, height and muscular structure and training and practice allows for you to jump two feet high.

How could you not feel anything but grateful that John at least can jump the 5 feet needed to get the bananas so you all could live and that he does share plenty of them without fail with you?

If I could only jump 3 feet and it wasn't enough to reach the only food source and I would Starve without John feeding me, he could sing about how great his jumping is and how he is the best high jumper and I would be singing in praise and thanks with him, not feeling like salt was being rubbed in a non existent wound.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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