Home | Community | Message Board


Zamnesia.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop for: Toilet Paper

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,944
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Flow vs Effort
    #3909153 - 03/12/05 10:30 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Trust vs. Trying, Controlling, Striving.

All of the foregoing happenings imply a kind of trust in the self and a trust in the world which permits the temporary giving up of straining and striving, of volition and control, of conscious coping and effort.

To permit oneself to be determined by the intrinsic nature of the matter-in-hand here-now necessarily implies relaxation, Taoistic receptivity. The common effort to master, to dominate and to control are antithetical to a true coming-to-terms with or a true perceiving of the materials [or the problem, or the person, etc.] Especially is this true with respect to the future. We must trust our ability to improvise when confronted with novelty in the future. Phrased in this way we can see more clearly that trust involves self-confidence, courage, lack of fear of the world. It is also clear that this kind of trust in ourselves-facing-the-unknown-future is a condition of being able, to turn totally, nakedly, and wholeheartedly to the present.

[Giving birth, urination, defecation, sleeping, floating in the water, sexual surrender are all instances in which straining, trying, controlling, have to be given up in favor of relaxed, trusting, confident letting things happen.]


Our question now is how does this receptivity or "letting things happen" relate to the syndrome of here-now immersion and self-forgetfulness?

For one thing, using the artist's respect for his materials as a paradigm, we may speak of this respectful attention to the matter-in-hand as a kind of courtesy or deference [without intrusion of the controlling will] which is akin to "taking it seriously." This amounts to treating it as an end, something per se, with its own right to be, rather than as a means to some end other than itself; i.e., as a tool for some extrinsic purpose. This respectful treatment of its being implies that it is respect-worthy.

This courtesy or respectfulness can apply equally to the problem, to the materials, to the situation, or to the person. It is what one writer has called deference [yielding, surrender] to the authority of the facts, to the law of the situation.
I can go over from a bare permitting "it" to be itself, to a loving, caring, approving, joyful, eagerness that it be itself, as with one's child or sweetheart or tree or poem or pet animal.

Some such attitude is a priori necessary for perceiving or understanding the full concrete richness of the matter-in-hand, in its own nature and in its own style, without our help, without our imposing ourselves upon it, in about the same way that we must hush and be still if we wish to hear the whisper from the other.



Be the Flower






--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Flow vs Effort [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3909995 - 03/13/05 01:59 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

:bow: All hail, Skorpivo!!


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Swimming Against the Flow of Suggestion.... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3910855 - 03/13/05 11:49 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Trust vs. Trying, Controlling, Striving.
1)  All of the foregoing happenings imply a kind of trust in the self and a trust in the world which permits the temporary giving up of straining and striving, of volition and control, of conscious coping and effort.
.
2)  [Giving birth, urination, defecation, sleeping, floating in the water, sexual surrender are all instances in which straining, trying, controlling, have to be given up in favor of relaxed, trusting, confident letting things happen.]
.
3)  Our question now is how does this receptivity or "letting things happen" relate to the syndrome of here-now immersion and self-forgetfulness?



.
.
.
1)  In your first paragraph, do you really think that even a temporary "giving up of control of straining and striving towards an effort" to keep one's children in line falls in context with what you have deemed to be a "trust in the world"....?  Perhaps I even chose certain things in my very "quoting" of your post to debate (to be noted as an embraced striving of controlled effort to consiously cope with trying to understand your full underlying reasoning behind this post) because it was controlling for myself to not quote it all....(?)  Perhaps I will be controlling of my trust to the very world that is telling me to "temporarily give up" my striving to find out and test the truth so I can really evaluate how to deal with certain situations as they come to me, or if I go to them....  :shiftyeyes:    HHhhhmmmmm....  .
.
2a)  Aaaahhhh, I *believe* you are correct about ALL of the physical items you listed in your second paragraph as it relates to "flowing", of which I have controllingly chosen to quote in your post, or are they really correct in the context you have stated....? 
.
2b)  If we are "supposed" to give up "controlling" those items to which you have stated, there would be NO self control over those very things you listed....  If there is no self control over anything BUT giving birth(to which I am not capable of), everyone would be;  shitting and pissing their pants while asleep at the wheel and having sex like bunny rabbits 24/7 in a constantly growing automobile collision in the blistering dog-knots of a sleeping stinky shitty uninhibited sex FRENZY....!  :what:  :lol:  Yummy to the Nth degree....    :thumbup:
.
1,2,3)  I *believe* that I will trust in my insticts of trying, controlling, and striving to have self control over my controlling instinct to NOT TRUST ANYTHING without TESTING those very conditions that might cause danger to myself and others because there is such a thing called "Deception" in the world....  As my reception to "letting things happen" is very much going to stay in MY control before I hand it over to the world....  I *believe* I have stayed within the context of the intended meaning and/or points of your words, but please correct me if I have failed....  It seems you have somewhat dismissed the "wolf in sheeps clothing" commonly known as "Deception" --that may or may not be present within our peer brothers, sisters, chidren, AND wildlife of the world, trusting that they WILL choose to make the CORRECT decisions at ALL times with that so ever eluding and inherent "correct choice" as some may or may not strive for humanity and honesty like we should.... 
.
3)  For if we immerse ourselves self forgetfulness as an excuse, and trust that everone does indeed think the way *we* ourselves do, only EVIL intentions would be left on this earth....  For the people that do choose to control others feed on the weaker, possibly more trusting and honest people like this....  Go with the flow....?  NO....  For even testing one's intents would be "going with the flow" as you have put it in this context (as I have perceived)....  And again, I ask you to correct me if I have perceived the meaning of the context of your words in an incorrect manner....  For I DO make mistakes when I am lead by my heart and/or instincts in my self-awareness and judgement of the "here and NOW" as I TAKE CONTROL of "the flow" around me, make my evaluation of how to act, and THEN decide to act accordingly under each certain situational circumstance --as a (possibly) fully mentally grounded individual....  :wink:  :heart:  For the world can be a very unforgiving place if we all just permitted ourselves to "go with the flow" and trust everyone with out "going against the flow" to intentionally test for the true intents of another....    Otherwise that flow may wash your very life down the river of trust, rolling in the undercurrents, and scraping bottom all the way down the river....  The way you have stated this philosophy here, it *seems* like a blind way to approach the REAL world we live in as it truly can be....
.
.
.
Quote:

For one thing, using the artist's respect for his materials as a paradigm, we may speak of this respectful attention to the matter-in-hand as a kind of courtesy or deference [without intrusion of the controlling will] which is akin to "taking it seriously." This amounts to treating it as an end, something per se, with its own right to be, rather than as a means to some end other than itself; i.e., as a tool for some extrinsic purpose. This respectful treatment of its being implies that it is respect-worthy.
.
This courtesy or respectfulness can apply equally to the problem, to the materials, to the situation, or to the person. It is what one writer has called deference [yielding, surrender] to the authority of the facts, to the law of the situation.
I can go over from a bare permitting "it" to be itself, to a loving, caring, approving, joyful, eagerness that it be itself, as with one's child or sweetheart or tree or poem or pet animal.
.
Some such attitude is a priori necessary for perceiving or understanding the full concrete richness of the matter-in-hand, in its own nature and in its own style, without our help, without our imposing ourselves upon it, in about the same way that we must hush and be still if we wish to hear the whisper from the other.
.
Be the Flower



.
.
.
I believe that safety from harm or possible death to be of the upmost of "taking it seriously", and that IS of the matters of the "controlling will" that one to use a judgement of another's human behaviour when flowing in life to the next circumstance where "testing" to be of the very relevence to one's safety --a factor NEVER to be hushed....    (Is "instinct" the equivalent to "controlling will"?)  One must also be aware that there is the possibility of deception when in a situation involving another, for the "Deceiver" himself could be "deceiving" himself(s) by the unlikely possibility of such things as multiple personalities and other "mental states" or causes for uncertainties in a current or pending situation....  It ***may*** NEVER happen in one's lifetime(s), but there is no expectation(s) that it would(n't) not happen either.... 
.
Awareness of the waking life is definately to be the key, testing, reading, and judging thru the insticts of another person's body language and/or behaviour to be the temporary foundation for trust, **if** the intents are perceived to be of a harmless or positive nature....  THEN perhaps there would be the possibility to "go with the flow" or "hush and be still" with one's eyes open and very aware --but not necessarily....  For someone else that is with you *could* go against their "yeilding to surrenderment" and perceive something that you yourself missed in the evaluation/reading of a certain circumstance....  To which further "going against the flow" of ensuing "tests" would be necessary for further evaluation....  Or perhaps it would be time in decision to fully trust the "instincts" of another and turn-tail of the situation and flee from it in an appropriate manner of context.... 
.
.
NOW, I am not at ALL implying that EVERYONE is like this at all, but the bad seeds with bad intentions are the ones that ruin it for all....  :frown:
.
.
I will stop now because I seem to be getting redundant....

I will stop now because I seem to be getting redundant....

I will stop now because I seem to be getting redundant....

I will stop now because I seem to be getting redundant....

I will stop now because I seem to be getting redundant....

I will stop now because I seem to be getting redundant....

I will stop now because I seem to be getting redundant....

I will stop now because I seem to be getting redundant....

I will stop now because I seem to be ge
**Syntax Error**

C:\>



ME....



:heartpump::heartpump:

(vewy~ bewtifow~ pitchure~ beye~ da~ way....)  :heart:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineegghead1
Nakedly Open

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 931
Loc: The Womb of Love
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Flow vs Effort [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3910902 - 03/13/05 12:13 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Concious effort is sometimes required at first to enter the stream, then we can let go and go with the flow. We need to cultivate good intentions. :smile:

Materialists are forever caught up in active laziness. This means doing everything in this material world to distract oneself from the vital pending issues of ones life that can be addressed with spirituality.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


Edited by egghead1 (03/13/05 12:52 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,698
Re: Flow vs Effort [Re: egghead1]
    #3911718 - 03/13/05 04:03 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

the flow experience is like pedalling at the second seat of a tandem bike:
first you get it going in the front seat
then you relax in behind yourself.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Flow vs Effort [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3911967 - 03/13/05 04:59 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Well.... IMO everyone's been flowing for far too long... and that requires no effort... to go with the flow as it were.

That's why many of us are disposed to the fucked up disposition we are in... we tend to call it society.

I'd go against the flow, with every effort necessary. I'm not to be lead by foolish incoherent babblings that have harmed everyone for centuries, yet... for some reason their are those that still persist with their beliefs that are taking us right into the downward spiral.


:thumbup: SkorpivoMusterion. nice post as always.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineegghead1
Nakedly Open

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 931
Loc: The Womb of Love
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Flow vs Effort [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3911989 - 03/13/05 05:05 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

No, i think your correct in a way, we need to go against our habit patterns to break them. You might be onto something here.

Maybe we are all already going against the flow, but dont realize it. if that was the case then we'd have to make some intial effort to see that and then ewe can trun and go with the flow.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Flow vs Effort [Re: egghead1]
    #3912039 - 03/13/05 05:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I believe some of us here are going against the flow... But a bit too many of us are in the wake and swept out to sea as long as we're talking in abstract notions.

It's not so much about habits... It's about the habits given to us, not of a physical manifestation, but more of a conceptual one. Many stick to beliefs that are no longer suiting to themselves, yet will die defending such a notion regardless of how foolish they looik in the process.

To truly escape the flow, is to apply effort, to actually attempt to destroy your own beliefs. If you can destroy your own beliefs, if others can... and further if you're too diluted to see that and still are on the defence... congradulations you're flowing.

Effort requires destruction in one form or another. Sure, It's a lot easier to just be lead along, and to help perpetuate falsehoods, but what's the fun in that?

Main Point:
You're either a leader, or you're a follower...
You either grow or you stagnate...
It's up to you to decide.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/13/05 05:25 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,849
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 14 days, 16 hours
Re: Flow vs Effort [Re: egghead1]
    #3912043 - 03/13/05 05:20 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Essentially, the concept of conscious control is illusory. Conscious control, in simplest of terms, doesn't exist. To phrase it as "self control" does even more towards illuminating its illusory substance. :wink:

It might be hard at first to understand the subtle mechanics at work here, parallel to the nature of the Tao in some ways, but I must say that releasing the illusion of a seperate mechanism that controls this physical body, these thoughts, this experience, really, the idea of control over anything at all by anything does not equate into the loss of the ability to function or the loss of awareness. This cannot be emphasized enough. :grin:

Holding a mental complex that maintains an identity distinct and seperate from nature (as in, an impenetrable boundary that creates an absolute distinctness) gives rise to the thought of the ability to exercise control over phenomenon, as in, that certain occurences in nature require a distinct identity to make a decision for that phenomenon to occur. An individual perspective and experience of reality becomes emphasized, not taking into account the existental state of every other variable in the universe as it unfolds in this very moment.

To consider that one has the ability to make decisions that iniate phenomenon is the same as a delusional holding the belief that he consciously controls the formations of the clouds and the falling of the rain. Both are the result of the mutual arising nature of a list of variables of this universe, the interactions between relating, dependant beings of existance. The mental programming in the delusional's mind projects the idea of being the ruler of these interactions onto his mind, but onto reality itself?

Reality unfolds as an inevitable process determined by the interactions betwen all participating variables. I do not believe I have ever seen any evidence to suggest a mechanism that chose to iniate any action. Action is more of a wave passing through a medium..... energy falling a course. That is, action flows through us and everything else, which, of course, is simply a construct of yet more action, yet more energy flowing, interacting.

Mutually arising variables. In every moment, our being unfolds as a result of the summation of the state of being of every other variable. The interplay between this one variable and every other variable. In every second, we are connected to every single other variable in this universe, and the universe plays itself out as a result of the interations of every single variable in this mesh network of an existance.

The mental programming that produces for us an experience of having control results from some rather primordial times when we barely had any awareness or understanding... instincts responsible for keeping us alive. Very simple mental programs, the equivalent of early computer programming. If/then clauses, etc. Live feed from sensory input, comparison to records of previous sensory input, pattern association discovered between screenshot of "live" sensory input feed (of course, the mechanism that runs these programs is forever analyzing what has already happened, as it has to occur before it can analyzed :nut:) and previous screenshot, outcome of what occured in previous screenshot is pulled into recollection, mechanism responsible for "choice" analyzes situation and acts accordingly.

Of course, the mechanism that makes this "choice" is itself the summation of the past. This entire complex exists in the past in that it only deals with the past. It doesn't iniate until input from our senses produces an experience. Not only that, but it doesn't choose anything, which has been evidenced by the fact that the mechanism responsible for this choice is merely a conglomeration of past experiences, a complex that forms an identity from these past experiences and constantly analyzes new experiences from the perspective and identity of those past experiences.

The idea of this mechanism, this mental programming being responsible for our identity is false, as identity is a summation of every aspect of a person, which is formed as a summation of every other aspect of the universe, and the idea of this mechanism, this mental programming being responsible for controlling action is false, as action is in actuality an interaction between all other variables of the universe. Action is energy, the state of change, the occurence. Action only exists in the present moment. Space, time, and subsequent physical matter (which is itself energy) is what action, energy, flows through. Energy flowing through energy.

In my eyes, taking all of this into consideration negates the true existance of a singular identity, by defintion, seperate from everything else, making conscious decisions, imposing and projecting a will onto reality. Reality exists independant of this illusory mental program, action exists independant of this illusion, oneself and one's awareness exists independant of this illusion.

It isn't required for one to function, it isn't require for action to occur, it isn't required for one to have an experience of reality, and it is not required for one to have a deep understanding as to the nature of the universe. More advanced structures are required before one can let go of structure itself. The thought of an individual, identity imposing will seperates one from one's direct experience of reality, preventing one from knowing reality. Self control does not exist as there is no real self.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,944
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Swimming Against the Flow of Suggestion.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3912195 - 03/13/05 05:55 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

do you really think that even a temporary "giving up of control of straining and striving towards an effort" to keep one's children in line falls in context with what you have deemed to be a "trust in the world"....??

This would depend on the approach of discipline towards the children.
If the first step towards the approach is in the direction of deference, respect, acceptance and surrender, then it certainly fits well into the aforementioned context.

In response to the rest of your post, I will address the primary assumption that seems prevalent in your premise:
Being fully absorbed in the matter-at-hand does not necessitate any lost of intelligence.
There is no lack of awareness? quite the opposite; the magnification of awareness takes place.

In regards to your contention of control, and in addition to what Fireworks has said, I leave you with the following quote by the perennial Alan Watts:
The notion of a seperate thinker, of an "I" distinct from the experience, comes from memory and from the rapidity with which thought changes. It is like a whirling of a burning stick to give the illusion of a continuous circle of fire. If you imagine that memory is a direct knowledge of the past rather than a present experience, you get the illusion of knowing the past and the present at the same time. This suggests that there is something in you distinct from both the past and the present experiences. You reason, "I know this present experience, and it is different from that past experience. If I can compare the two, and notice that experience has changed, I must be something constant and apart."
But, as a matter of fact, you cannot compare this present experience with a past experience. You can only compare it with a memory of the past, which is a part of the present experience. When you see clearly that memory is a form of present experience, it will be obvious that trying to seperate yourself from this experience is as impossible as trying to make your teeth bite themselves. There is simply experience. There is not something or someone experiencing experience! You do not feel feelings, think thoughts, or sense sensations any more than you hear hearing, see sight, or smell smelling.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Swimming Against the Flow of Suggestion.... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3912212 - 03/13/05 05:59 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
You do not feel feelings, think thoughts, or sense sensations any more than you hear hearing, see sight, or smell smelling.





You do in way of permitting yourself to experience such sensory though. I can close my eyes, I can close of my nose, I can cover my ears, I can dissociate my feelings...

By permitting the sensation you indeed are in control of the external influences. Your ability to allow them to take place is the cause of it, not the sensory taking place.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,944
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Flow vs Effort [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3912261 - 03/13/05 06:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

To the other readers, who?ve brought up the definition of flow relating to society and the world, keep in mind that this isn't quite the meaning of the word that is in congruity with the original premise.
However, since it has been brought up, I?d like to direct attention to the fact that total absorption and fascination with the matter-at-hand actually supports the semi-iconoclastic notion of going "against the flow", as the flow in that sense is pertinent to mankind's extended mind, i.e. society and such. This is because in such meditative modes of existence, one's mind is no longer involving itself in the neurosis of living almost completely in psychological time [and only taking brief visits to here-now immersion].

One could say, that it is because most people are not fully present, that most people are caught up in the "downward spiral" as you've described.

There is a great book on this subject alone, called "The Ending of Time" by Jiddu Krishnamurti and Dr. David Bohm.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,944
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Swimming Against the Flow of Suggestion.... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3913905 - 03/14/05 12:16 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Could you elaborate on your stance?

Do you support the notion of an "experiencer" seperate from experiences?


"The essence of life shall never be known by a human being as long as that person seeks to observe life like viewer and subject. The absolutely essential nature of life can only be comprehended by merging fully with the flow of life, so that one is utterly a part of it." ~Deng Ming Dao




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Swimming Against the Flow of Suggestion.... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3913963 - 03/14/05 12:26 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

hrmmm...

The experiencer is the sole determinate of the experience is what I'm suggesting. They are the ones that have the ability to control directly what they are experiencing. This isn't always the case, and this is what I was suggesting needs to be refined in respects to going against the flow or flowing... as most people aren't consciously aware of their ability to seperate themselves from an experience imposed onto them.

Don't know if that made a hell of a lot of sense.  :laugh:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/14/05 12:38 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Swimming Against the Flow of Suggestion.... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3914006 - 03/14/05 12:35 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I don't believe in a set path.

free choice. willpower. honor. integrity. the rendering of change. All of these things are very meaningful and important to me.

a million people a day try to change me in a million different ways. They all want to confuse me as to who I am. They all want me to be something I am not. But I know who I am, and I know who I am not. And the people who use deception to try and influece me are the people who get the least of my respect.

I think acceptance would work in an honest world. But this is not an honest world, it is a twisted, distorted, crooked universe. If we can change that, then maybe more people would be willing to buy into this whole 'acceptance' thing.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,029
Re: Flow vs Effort [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3914018 - 03/14/05 12:37 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You must flow, yes but to get where you need to go you some times have to use some effort to get across to the other side of the river.

Reminds me of those bugs that cling to the rocks, live life in fear of washing away, there whole life clinging to what they know and in fear of learning what they figh against, then one day this bug had it with clinging, as he came to the decision he is tired of fighting this force , he rather be free of it and if it kills him then so be it. So he let go and was tumbled and bashed along the bottom, all the other clinging creatures clung to there rocks watching with amazment, but he only bounced and tumbled for a moment, then the current and his strength took him towards the surface, there he floated was reborn into a new world, breaking free of the surface and took flight into the air.
thats the life cycle of a may fly philosophied


--------------------




Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,944
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Swimming Against the Flow of Suggestion.... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3914055 - 03/14/05 12:47 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

In response to what seems to be your work-in-progress, I offer two quotes from the deceased spiritual guru Vernon Howard:

"The attempt to escape a problem is the problem. See the logic of
this. When a man tries to escape, when he moves away from the prob-
lem, he divides himself into one man with a problem and another man
who will escape the problem. In reality, there is no such division,
so the escape must always fail, as the man sadly experiences. But
when seeing that he is the problem itself, that he and his problem
are one, he stops trying to escape because he sees there is no other
course. In this state of intelligent acknowledgement of reality, he
will not have the problem."


"There is no way reality can be prevented from flowing the way it
flows. It is our vain attempts to force it to flow in the service
of our imaginary needs which sets us in painful conflict with our-
selves and nature. You are not separate from the flowing reality;
you are that flowing reality. See this and you will not see any-
thing else which conflicts with it. You will be what you see."


The point I am trying to demonstrate, is that you cannot genuinely seperate yourself from the present experience. You ARE the present experience.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,698
the feeling of going with the Flow [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3914388 - 03/14/05 02:13 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

you are the present experience which includes the past experiences, which is why going with the flow is an overlay, the effort is made and then you barely steer.
it does not work if you just barely steer.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: the feeling of going with the Flow [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3914664 - 03/14/05 03:16 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I agree to an extent SkorpivoMusterion.

But isn't that a suggestion that ultimately you are bound by your experiences? Or is it what you choose to experience in regards to the experience?

You are only the present experience such that you make the determined choice to indulge in that experience. If you refuse to, then you negate that experience albeit are still experiencing. I'm not refuting the concept of experiencing the present as in the nature of experience, for one is always experiencing, even in a vegetive/blank state, it is an experience by definition.

However, I am refuting to what degree you experience is based on your permissability/allowance of the experience to take place.

(Can we get a suggestion of an experience from someone please? Unless we want to make this all conceptual, either way... just a bit easier to discuss in regards to something for some when something more concrete is provided.)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,944
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: the feeling of going with the Flow [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3925766 - 03/16/05 04:00 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

But isn't that a suggestion that ultimately you are bound by your experiences?

So long as you conceive yourself as the seperate ego.
But when you realize that this form of identity is no more than a social institution, the sharp division between oneself and the ultimate reality is no longer relevant.

Just as no thing or organism exists on its own, it does not act on its own. Furthermore, every organism is a process: thus the organism is not other than its actions. To put it clumsily: it is what it does. More precisely, the organism, including its behavior, is a process which is to be understood only in relation to the larger and longer process of its environment.

The only real ?I? is the whole endless process. Or to be more precise, there just simply is ?the whole endless process?.
The whole universe, the total environment is our body just as much as our bag of skin and bones.
If memories are stored in neurons, there is no standing aside from the stream of events, for neurons flow along in the same stream as events outside the skull. After all, your neurons are part of my external world, and mine of yours!
All our insides are outside, there in the physical world. But, conversely, the outside world has no color, shape, weight, heat, or motion without ?inside? brains. It has these qualities only in relation to brains, which are, in turn, members of itself.


Only when one realizes the fiction of the ego, of the illusory identity clinging to mind, body and personality? does one truly have ?free experience? ? because they are? It.

This is it
and I am It
and You are It
and so is That
and He is It
and She is It
and It is It
and That is That.


Do you Grok?

So to answer your refutation in summary:
am refuting to what degree you experience is based on your permissability/allowance of the experience to take place.

As long as one tries to live life as a separate ego, ?experiencing experiences?, they are forever subject to reality disclosing the falseness and futility of perpetuating what is just an illusion.

When fragmenting life as perceiver and percept ceases, only then does life genuinely become a ?free-willed experience?.

Can we get a suggestion of an experience from someone please?

Ego-death on psychedelics. Ever had such an experience or witness someone have one? In such situations, there is typically no longer the feeling of ?I am being this or that, with such and such, in all of this.?

There is simply just: Being this or that, with such and such, in all of this.


In a broader word, the essence of what I am saying is this:

"The Now is as it is because it cannot be otherwise. What Buddhists have always known, physicists now confirm: there are no isolated things or events. Underneath the surface appearance, all things are interconnected, are part of the totality of the cosmos that has brought about the form that this moment takes."

And who you truly are, is inseperable from the Now.




Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (03/16/05 04:24 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

Amazon Shop for: Toilet Paper

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Skorpivo
( 1 2 3 all )
dblaney 2,220 41 07/03/06 06:32 PM
by fireworks_god
* How to flow with the eternal Tao in suburbia? theuser 1,183 14 07/16/06 02:21 AM
by Panoramix
* Forum Name & Suggestions
( 1 2 3 all )
SkorpivoMusterion 2,201 45 04/05/06 11:48 PM
by it stars saddam
* FLOW fresh313 1,173 19 03/01/06 03:57 AM
by Fospher
* dolphins taught us to swim!
( 1 2 3 all )
CerebralFlower 3,245 51 05/05/07 01:16 PM
by Huehuecoyotl
* .
( 1 2 3 all )
soulcircus 3,095 53 04/30/07 09:17 PM
by thedudenj
* DEEP LOVE BLOOD FLOWS HOT RED AND DEEP oneoverzero 2,167 17 05/30/01 04:39 PM
by oneoverzero
* Why is swimming sinful?
( 1 2 all )
mr_kite 1,609 20 01/23/07 12:12 PM
by BlueCoyote

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
983 topic views. 1 members, 4 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
RVF Garden Supply
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.171 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 14 queries.