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Invisiblecantara
member
Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 133
Loc: Beyond the sun
What is Music?
    #374251 - 08/18/01 09:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Anyone on here ever asked themselves, while tripping or not, What is music?

I don't mean what do you call music and what do you not call music - I mean it literally - what is it?

Here's what I am getting at - I have begun to suspect/feel/perceive that music is some kind of almost palpable force that exists separately from humans. I don't imply that it is necessarily a conscious thing, just that it has its own force and its own existence. I think it moves throughout human consciousness like mycelium through substrate - it spreads out and expands. Each person that creates music is a contact point.

Notice I said creates - most people enjoy music, but I think music travels through those that create it. The very word "create" implies to me that there is some conscious intent on the person's part to make the music. This certainly is so on the micro level - you have to work to put a song together - but on the macro level, few are chosen to actually create and I think those that are, are chosen because they are some sort of more sensitive antenna than most. They have the qualities music is looking for to spread.

I guess I am not explaining myself very well here - most people, I think, think that music is something people create of themselves - and in one sense they do but I think that music is something that seeks out specific people which possess, for whatever reasons, qualities that allow music to find expression in those people.

If you listen to various well-known musicians (and certainly most of the home recording musicians, because they aren't making it to sell product and make money) many, many of them will use phrases like "The music is in me" or "The music speaks through me" or "I have this thing - music - that I must find a way to get out" - these are all interesting statements. I think that music is some kind of palpable force that is expressed through certain people who serve as conduits.

One might say, that is the creative urge and not exclusively music, and I think a case could be made for that too. But it does seem like music is some kind of separate thing from artistic expression in general.

Thoughts? Agree/disagree?



---- Cantara

Commanding in another world
Suddenly you hear and see
This magic new dimension

- Queensryche, "Silent Lucidity"



--------------------
---- Cantara

[green]Shroomism, please don't delete this thread![/green]


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
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Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,152
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: What is Music? [Re: cantara]
    #374254 - 08/18/01 09:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

i know where your coming from... actually music plays/played a very, very big role in the process of creation fo the universe... read some books about holy geometry, like the flower of life from Drunvalo Melchizedek, and you?ll see that the universe fits together like the notes in a symphony... it goes far beyond human understanding... and, as so many times, words do a really shitty job to describe it... but ansyway, i don?t have to, for i know that you feel it... take care

_____________
"Heaven--as you call it--is nowhere. Let?s just put some space between the w and the h in that word and you?ll see that heaven is now...here." -God


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Invisiblecantara
member
Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 133
Loc: Beyond the sun
Re: What is Music? [Re: In(di)go]
    #374256 - 08/18/01 09:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, I understand. It is interesting how music can be used as a metaphor to describe and understand nearly, if not totally, everything else. Quite interesting.



---- Cantara

Commanding in another world
Suddenly you hear and see
This magic new dimension

- Queensryche, "Silent Lucidity"



--------------------
---- Cantara

[green]Shroomism, please don't delete this thread![/green]


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InvisibleIshmael
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Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 224
Re: What is Music? [Re: cantara]
    #374282 - 08/18/01 11:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Anyone who has ever had a pychedelic experience should be able to sympathize with your thoughts upon this matter. There is something quite mesmerizing about music...about sound moving through ranges in sympathetic wave-forms to produce harmonies and dissonances. To peaks and vallies which one can feel occuring and almost anticipating coming.

In many tribal cultures, music is the language of the divine. Drums, Flutes and especially voice are methods of associating one with the world. In many cultures it is even taken deeper. Lovers are thought of as 'Being of One Song': Complementary, in harmony. One's song is his or her strength and the manifestation of Spirit from within.

This moves onto the almost mystical associations you place upon musicians as they occur in our culture. A conduit is an adequate term. One never really contrives a piece of music, at least not in my experience (I play several instruments and know a great many excellent musicians whom i have discussed this many times). A good friend of mine confided after I complemented him upon a particular song he had played that he really felt little connection to the piece and that he could probably never play it again (when pressed, he said that he would probably write down an /approximation/ of the song to be played over again)...he said he hadn't really been paying attention. He had just been allowing himself to play. I have had a few experiences when playing music where I have completely allowed my concentration upon the activity to subside and simply allowed myself to do whatever it was that I wished. Another friend (again, a musician) was listening and watching me play and said, after I finished: "It looks like you just had a breakthrough." When pressed on what exactly he meant, he explained that it is common when playing music to find a place where you just 'Let go' and play...extremely well. A place where all pre-concieved forms and methods melt away and you just allow whatever music that is inside to bludgeon its way to the surface. And this is exactly how it felt. I had never played music of the type or of the caliber I had before that point. The same friend said that this 'feeling' was kind of the point of having a band and why musicians refer to 'the energy' that they get from performing. The band was a way for a group of musicians to take the 'energy' imparted by a crowd and utilize it to have those sorts of breakthrough moments. I can tell you that the state I achieved and he spoke of at length was extremely meditative in nature. And this is, of course, one of the main tennants of Indian Classical music. The music is a mixture of rigid form and improvisation, and the proper balance once achieved is extremely mesmerizing. A great Indian Musician is often revered in a quasi-mystical manner (It was only a few years ago that Ravi Shankar was given such honor in a state-sanctioned ceremony. I believe his title was 'Jewel of India' though feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

But it must be said, that any profession (especially an artistic profession) has the propensity to produce such experiences. It is only the level of depth one is willing to allow his or her art to speak through them that limits the artist's creativity. Which is why many artists complain of being 'blocked' when they arer unable to produce their work.

Ish



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Invisibleshroom-girlie
addict
Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 215
Loc: California
Re: What is Music? [Re: Ishmael]
    #374326 - 08/19/01 01:07 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Music is a higher form of communication..it has the ability to make you feel the emotions that the artists have felt...everyone has the ability to create music, it just takes practice..we all have music in us and we can all create music...most of us just choose not to and listen to others music...take care

"Express yourself completely then become quiet."


--------------------

"Express yourself completely then become quiet."


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InvisibleHydro
addict
Registered: 03/31/01
Posts: 402
Loc: In your closet..
Re: What is Music? [Re: cantara]
    #374563 - 08/19/01 03:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Music is a form of expression. Like shroom-girlie stated, one can express emotion and so much more through the sound. I don't think theres anything more to it really. ;-)

Hydro has spoken!
Please! Tell me about the fucking golf shoes!


--------------------
Hydro has spoken!
Please! Tell me about the fucking golf shoes!


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InvisibleHydro
addict
Registered: 03/31/01
Posts: 402
Loc: In your closet..
Re: What is Music? [Re: Ishmael]
    #374570 - 08/19/01 04:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

> I have had a few experiences when playing music where I have completely allowed my concentration upon the activity to subside and simply allowed myself to do whatever it was that I wished.

That's really the only way to write. You should try to get into this state of mind every time you are writing! The music truly comes from within then. Personally, I like to smoke a few bowls and just jam out for hours without a care in the world. Just let it flow out and carry it on. Granted, 75% of the time you don't remember what you just played, but hey, that's what band mates are for eh? ;-)

Hydro has spoken!
Please! Tell me about the fucking golf shoes!


--------------------
Hydro has spoken!
Please! Tell me about the fucking golf shoes!


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OfflinePhyl
old hand
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 597
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: What is Music? [Re: Hydro]
    #374992 - 08/20/01 04:18 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think this is limited to sound either. The same things can be said of all art forms.



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OfflineTengu
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Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 77
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: What is Music? [Re: cantara]
    #374997 - 08/20/01 04:37 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think music is a kind of pattern that interacts in some strange way with the pattern that calls itself human :-)

Everything is just a pattern. or is it too abstract? i believe its like this.



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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,481
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 15 hours, 29 minutes
Re: What is Music? [Re: cantara]
    #375129 - 08/20/01 12:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

music is a temporal reflection of a timeless reality.... harmonics of the one big note...
vibratory dancings in the humming void...
echoes that attempt to remind us of Who we are and the whither & whence of our seeming journey...
~~~
for a glimpse into some aspects of the nature of vibratory reality, do yourselves a favor & find a copy of itzak bentov's _stalking the wild pendulum_
then of course there's the rip off press comic _mother's oats_ whre the mad scientist and his assistant get into the time machine & travel back before the beginning, getting a ringside seat for the act of creation... and it was music indeed... and dance soon followed... could we steal a line and say the only dance there is...

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,384
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: What is Music? [Re: gnrm23]
    #375281 - 08/20/01 08:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

and then Louis Armstrong, the famous Jazz musician once replied when asked what jazz was....
"Lady, if you have to ask you'll never know!"

you remember who the jazz musician was who said "Fake it 'til you make it"?




--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Registered: 08/30/99
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Re: What is Music? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #375354 - 08/20/01 10:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

diz?

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineBBin
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Registered: 05/01/99
Posts: 455
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: What is Music? [Re: cantara]
    #375510 - 08/21/01 08:20 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

To me music is the direct connection with the divine essence of what is means to Be.
What is music? Is it just patterns and stuctures of harmonics and rhythms within cycles of placement? I feel it is much more than this. Music speaks of a certain sense of ordered chaos which makes our sense of Logic itself make sense.
What is a rhythm? Is it just sounds that are placed in succesion? No. What makes them complete is the spaces inbetween the sounds, the silence and emptiness which creates the space, its a dance of balance. And you can find a certain sense of logic there, rhythms that connect and flow, syncopathic delay lines that fit into the spaces like swiss clockwork, flowing with the grid of time, defining a little piece of the great puzzle, giving us a glimpse of the greater picture, not as an image, or something to be understood rationally, but as a feeling felt through the music as a whole. Without and beyond thought.
What makes harmony? Overtones and harmonic waveforms, cycles that resonate on different levels, completing the seas of chaos with the directional waves of order, fitting into each other, creating the Whole through the fine balanced dance of each seperated part.
In essence everything around us can be defined as a vibration. Each vibration has a frequency and each frequency has a waveform through which it cycles. So everything around us moves in cycles which lock into each other on such scales of complexity that we cannot ever hope to understand it with our thoughts, yet we are able to feel it, especially when we listen to music. Because music is just a reflection of the whole of our dimensions, the music we make create and channel is fractally identical to the music of the universe, they are just defining theirselves on different scales of manifestation. In similar ways to how the structures of the waveforms of sound manifest the songs we listen to, so to do the waveforms of existence manifest the lives we go through. Everything that happens, every occurance that occurs, or decision decided, or situation that unfolds can be seen as rhythms, cycles, some harmonic some dissonant. And with our conscious selves we can choose to go with the flow of harmony. Harmony leads to unification, a oneness that goes beyond seperation, and unification leads to purification from cycles that spiral downwards into the negative dissonance of the basic hate and fear, enabling us to resonate with full love. Universal. We must always be aware and stay in the moment, so we can be in full harmony and flow with the right cycles.
Through us, music plays the dance of life, and through us the dance of life is manifested in music. Projecting selfreflection, selfrealised.
Music speaks to the soul, because the soul itself is part of the great song of existance. You can feel it in every moment and hear it in every song you listen to, no matter who created it. Within that perspective there is no bad music, only better music, more in harmony with harmony, more in tune with attunement.
What is music? Life, in its fullest and truest sense of meaning, is music, flowing, floating, flowering.
hear it, feel it, see it

Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing


--------------------
Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: What is Music? [Re: BBin]
    #375604 - 08/21/01 01:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

BBin: I bet you'd really dig European IDM (Intelligent Dance Music). Please check out Autechre (available through www.warprecords.com). Imagine a collage of rhythms and soundscapes juxtaposed together.

I don't agree with the idea that we can't understand music through thought. Certainly, we can't Know music through thought, in some "metaphysical" sense (in that we could spend an eternity arguing about what it "is"), but we don't have to Know a system to understand it. Part of what I find very exciting about listening to music like Aphex Twin, Squarepusher, Autechre, Musiq, The Orb, exc. is reverse engineering through Knowing (True Listening, the highest form of communication), because in actuality this type of Knowing is the type where I'm completely aware of my own subjectivity, I'm not confused about what I do or do not know through my rational mind, because it's just a tool at this point. In other words I Know that I am operating on a level of being in which there is no separation between the experience of the music/and who's listening to the music. I'm aware of my own ignorance, but it doesn't hold me back. This subjective experience resonates with my time-bounded mind - I've heard similar signals in the past, and i've decoded them into a rich resivour of symbols, and pattern similarities between the past signal and the present signal resonate, but they're not identical. I can put language to them without losing synchronization with the music.
Like, say I am listening to the Twin
and he has four different drumlines juxtaposed together each going at different BPM - through synchronizing myself with them, I can begin to describe them without some true Objectivity (in which I'd have to be an outsider, separate from the music-participant experience myself), but also without the subjective fallacy of the participant, because I've disciplined myself in the art of listening to music (music-meditation). I can describe the samples used, I can describe frequencies and modulations, I can describe granular synthesis effects, I can describe the panning, I can describe that a picture is being transformed into sound - I can understand it, understanding it really propells me into a new space much father than had I had no time-bounded rational mind.
I can describe, I can explain, but I can't Know, because that would make the who's listening to the music man a separate dude from the one who's experiencing it, which means my view gets real narrow, real slow, and real out of synch. Learning that way doesn't suit me at all anymore.

Just food for thought ;)
peace



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineCACA
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Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 1,122
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Re: What is Music? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #375609 - 08/21/01 01:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Music is what you want it to be and its nothing more or less than that.

:frown:


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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InvisibleLenore
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Registered: 01/31/00
Posts: 366
Re: What is Music? [Re: CACA]
    #375929 - 08/21/01 11:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It seems that the point of this dialogue is not so much what is music, but what is ART. Art in the most basic meaning of the word, however you might define it. Music is an audio form of art, a creation of humans for the sole purpose of creative expression through sound.

One thing i find fascinating about music is the logic behind scales, chords, tones, harmonies. What makes several notes fit together so well as to produce what is a logical progression, or a series of sounds that not only obviously fit together but seem to say something unique through thier very interaction and combination. Granted many different musical theories exist throughout many different cultures, but what makes music distinct from abstract sound? Javanese Gamelon music for instance is far removed from western music although it shares the basic concept of sound organized in rythm or time as well as scale.

For those of you who want to hear real avant guard music pick up mike pattons "adult themes for voice"

But as Art, I believe music exist on a cultural level. A musician may be origional only insofar as they can alter, or improvise upon their entire internalized knowledge of music. Is nothing origional? Where does the seed of true creation exist if it does?
If only music could be whatever you wanted it to be.

I think pop music and the music industry is a tragedy. Art by definition cannot exist as a marketable commodity. I have a theory about the negation of art within capitalist societies but I wont go into that.



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OfflinePhyl
old hand
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 597
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Autechre [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #376111 - 08/22/01 04:32 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I bet you'd really dig European IDM (Intelligent Dance Music). Please check out Autechre (available through www.warprecords.com). Imagine a collage of rhythms and soundscapes juxtaposed together.

After some very good reccomendations, I picked up Autechre's new album, confield, a couple of days ago. I've never heard music like this before, and all I can say is that after a few listens (it took a few listens to understand it) it totally blew me away.
Initially it seemed like a chaotic, almost random arrangement of beats and samples, but then I started to see the structure. So many different levels of rhythm and sound existing simultaneously, and all complementing each other beautifully. My emotional response is deeper than found with any other type of music I've heard, it's so hypnotic, almost as if there is some kind of connection between the music and my consciousness, and as the different levels of the music rise and fall, my consciousnes is stretched and moulded in response.

If you've got an open mind to music, definately check this out. I can see it wouldn't appeal to many, but I'd urge everyone to at least try listening to this style of music a few times. Can't wait to listen to this on 2-CB.

CJ, I'm going ot check out some more autechre soon, but are there any other albums you'd recommend?

Take care

Phil



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Offlinemissulena
enthusiast
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 251
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: What is Music? [Re: Lenore]
    #376113 - 08/22/01 04:37 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Music is different to all other forms of art to me because never has a painting or sculpture ever brought me to tears or reminded me of a past experience. Poetry is much more powerful when put with music too



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Offlineconcept
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/01
Posts: 1
Loc: Scotland, UK
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Autechre [Re: Phyl]
    #376146 - 08/22/01 05:44 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Phyl,

The next album by Ae you should buy is Chiastic Slide, their best work in my opinion.

It is organic. But still has that seemingly chaotic structure..

It is immmense. You should also check out Boards of Canada on Warp Records too. A very different feel to Ae, but amazing nonetheless.

both bands are partial to psychedelics, and make this well known..



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OfflinePhyl
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 597
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Autechre [Re: concept]
    #376176 - 08/22/01 06:44 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks Concept, I'll check that out chiastic slide next.

I discovered Boards of Canada's 'music has the right to children' a while ago. Very nice and laid back. I'm not too taken by their new 'In a beautiful place' EP though. It just seems to be lacking something compared to music has the right.

Have you got anything by 'Plaid', or 'Two lone swordmen'? If not, then you should definately check these out.

Take care

Phil



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