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OfflineKremlin
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Whats the deal with Music?
    #2299462 - 02/04/04 03:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I sit and try to think about it sometimes, but i dont really have any groundbreaking ideas...

Why is music so integral to so many of our lives? Why do i feel like if it didnt exist i would rather not exist as well? What about it is so trancing and soothing to us?

I remember when i was a freshman in college (2 years ago) i saw a post of a study on the effects of drum beats on people...i wish i had read up on it.

Ive taken a bunch of neuro classes, but we never delve into this type of subject, although maybe i should start bothering my professors...

It seems odd to me that something so structured and precise 1) can be perfectly natural to some, and 2) is enjoyed at the level which it is across the globe.

All these different cultures have dances and songs to praise gods or to just fucking enjoy themselves...so my estimation would be that it is somehow hardwired.

We perceive sound (by current theories) as wave forms, vibrating through the ossicles into the tempanic membrane, and vibrating the foci of our auditory nerve cells. The rate and location determines the sound....so since we have this advanced recognition system, is this how we are so prone to identifying correct music (ie music that follows musical theory and is precise and harmonic) vs chaos?

I dont want this discussion to veer only in the direction of perception, thats just where my hands are taking me as they type my thoughts....my main concern has to do with how it appears to be integral to everything...

I guess it would have to be linked up to our reticular activating system in some way to elicit such pleasure and return-provoking emotions.

What do all of you think? i'm just rambling here trying to get a discussion going.

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2299488 - 02/04/04 04:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think a lot of art (including music) is about pride for our own species..

When I hear an incredeible piece of music, I get very proud that "WE" made this - even though I wasn't involved, I see it as "wow look what mankind has thrown together! Look at the beauty we can create!"

Makes me feel good :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2299497 - 02/04/04 04:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

hadnt thought of it that way strumpling, interesting.

I am shooting more at, how does music exist? Sure i can bang a pot and a pan together and stomp my foot and produce "music", but why continue with this process? What is it that makes us enjoy music so much?

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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Offlinefilthysock
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2299612 - 02/04/04 05:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Very interesting topic.  I think about things like that all the time.
I have a theory, but I'll start with how "taste" has been scientifically explained so that I can explain my theory on music.

Well, each flavour in foods have a dna structure.  If you look at the dna structure to a flavour (through a microscope) you'll can see this dna structure.  Each flavour has its own dna structure type, some are fat, some are long, some are thing, some are jagged... right... The interesting thing is that the foods that taste good are the foods with flavours that have dna structures that LOOK good together.  Like chocolate might have round fat soft looking dna structures and tuna might have sharp jagged and long dna structures, and everybody knows (except someone who's toungue is nuts :crazy2:) that chocolate and tuna dont taste good together (believe me... I've been dared to try!), thats because of the clash of so differant dna structures together and the way the tongue's taste buds takes in these dna structures.  The tongue buds only for good looking couples, to put it like that.  But every tongue has an individual opinion of what dna couples look good, more or less...

I think that with music its the same thing, but music makes us dance and laugh or cry or go nuts...
Everything in nature is formed in patterns, from what we see, down to things we dont see like molecules and dna structures.  Things that have some repeating pattern or structure are what we percieve as good.  If it wouldnt be like that we wouldnt need a beat in music, you could have a retarded guy beating a bucket with a stick and it would sound good to us! 

I love music, but I love the chaotic type, but even the chaotic type of music has a beat and reocuuring riffs and choruses...etc...

really interesting topic...


Edited by filthysock (02/04/04 05:53 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2299870 - 02/04/04 10:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kremlin said:
I am shooting more at, how does music exist?  Sure i can bang a pot and a pan together and stomp my foot and produce "music", but why continue with this process?  What is it that makes us enjoy music so much?





Its the good vibes, man. :wink:

Seriously, though, I think it is just the way we perceive the combination of notes and rhythm. Hehe, well, you explained that one.

As far as the effects of drum beats and everything, I do believe that a lot of people have used a simple, repetitive drum beat to enter trance. I don't remember which book I had read, some shaman book... it was made by a lot of different... I dunno exactly, psycologists, maybe? A whole bunch of college educated dudes who teach and have access to willing kids to experiment with them... they would get the ole drum out and pound away. The rhythm would put them in a trance, like full on Level 5 transforming into a bear sort of thing...

There was also something in it about how they thought that when drums were outlawed in certain primitive tribes that had been conquered by more barbaric, less "tuned-in" tribes, the people learned to replicate the rhythm in their own mind, either focusing on one thought or by focusing on their breathing.... wouldn't that be mediatation?  :laugh:

We are basically energy pulsating and flowing, just like the music. This is probably why we connect with it so much.

Most of what I have discovered about music I can't really put into words. Its more of a "feeling" sort of thing. But I really appreciate how much power music has at shaping an experience, creating the ambience... or if focused on soley, becoming a complete experience. If the musicians were truly dedicated to what they were doing and they were good enough musicians to do it right, there is going to be some music that will blow your mind. :wink:

You know what is really fun? Solitudes! Especially this twenty five minute long Ocean Waves one I have. Atmospheric heaven. :grin:

But ja, music is capable of so much and it would truly suck to live without it. It feeds directly into the, well, what I would call soul, really. You can't tell me cold hard logic enjoys music. *said slowly and devoid of emotion: "Sonic manipulations at 140 beats per minute with steady eighth note rhythm with melody consisting of the notes of the E Minor Scale." Wow, what an experience!  :rolleyes:

Also, I don't see music as only a constant parade, flowing with the progression of time, streaming from start to finish. Sort of hard to describe what I mean, but I'm going to try.. Okay, you have rhythm. Rhythm doesn't just go from Point A to Point B. Its like on a platform following that continous journey from Point A to Point B, but the rhythm is traveling back and forth on the platform as it goes....

Now I sound insane.  :nut: Its more of a perception thing, really, and I think it has something to do with the whole bar thing. Or where the accents on the beat are. I can't really put it into words.... *gives up*

But anyways, there is a lot more to music that meets the eye.  :lol:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleKackleDude
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2300551 - 02/04/04 02:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Some understanding I have of the attractiveness of music I think relates to the heartbeat we hear/feel inside the womb. That pulsating and flowing energy (as fireworksgod put it) is the source of our life and many many generations of collective being sort of passed down to us. It also ties into the many future generations that will share this driving heartbeat. If y'notice, some music can sync directly up with your heartbeat if you pay close attention.
Then when you start thinking bout music beyond the pure beat, How different tones elicit different emotions in us still confounds me. Probably traces back to basic 'good' and 'bad' sound recognition systems engrained in our brain.

Quote:

But anyways, there is a lot more to music that meets the eye.



hyeah.


--------------------
yeeeahh, it's gonna be well wicked


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2300729 - 02/04/04 02:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe it has something to do with the first musical sound you hear.

- The drum of your mothers pumping heart -  :thumbup:


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: KackleDude]
    #2300982 - 02/04/04 03:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

KackleDude said:
Some understanding I have of the attractiveness of music I think relates to the heartbeat we hear/feel inside the womb. That pulsating and flowing energy (as fireworksgod put it) is the source of our life and many many generations of collective being sort of passed down to us. It also ties into the many future generations that will share this driving heartbeat. If y'notice, some music can sync directly up with your heartbeat if you pay close attention.
Then when you start thinking bout music beyond the pure beat, How different tones elicit different emotions in us still confounds me. Probably traces back to basic 'good' and 'bad' sound recognition systems engrained in our brain.





I can relate to this. When I hear music, mostly I first hear the beat. Then, I hear the tones. Then, maybe, after having heard the song a zillion times, I'll finally listen to the words. Music for me is an internal experience.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2301028 - 02/04/04 03:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Music quickly finds it's way to our hearts and conjurs up a great deal of emotions which demand us to become deeply involved in our experience. We have an appetite for this. We have an appetite for closeness, for connectivity.

Music behaves in much the same way our minds do, and much the same way our entire world does. There is something about music which, although reducible to mere pitch, tone, and volume, gives rise to an arrangement of recognizable tangents which can be followed in a series. In this way, music carries a certain continuity; it seems to flow. Other music seems to canter, to stutter, or to tremble. Some music is heavy and thick, while other music is light and fleeting. We can assign characteristics to music.

Our minds are this way. When we encounter objects, our mind instantly informs us that certain objects are round, square, blue, red, large, small. We know that some objects are heavy and cumbersome while others are light and mangable. We find some objects distasteful, while others appear quite attractive. Without the need to pause, we know to avoid certain objects, or to pursue other objects. In this way, our mind contructs a continuity to our experience. Our mind assigns characteristics to our experience.

When listening to music, we can even say such things as "this music seems to laugh", or "this music seems to hurt." "This song is hilarious." "This song is mournful." These are powerful feelings that grip our experience, yet are not externally discernable as mere whimsical sounds. Our emotional responses to music immerse us into rich and powerful experiences which are not identifyable as mere tone, mere pitch, timing and so forth. In this way, music can be a deeply personal experience unique to the individual.

When we encounter certain people or things, all sorts of different experiences arise. Throughout our daily lives, we experience happiness, love, delight, success, humor, sorrow, hatred, doubt, worry and confusion. Where do these experiences come from? The objects that give rise to these experiences appear to be the people in our lives, our posessions, all the people and things out in the world. But there is nothing about any of these things which are themselves the emotions we experience. Our emotional responses to our surroundings immerse us into a rich and powerful scenery, yet are not externally indentifyable as mere people and things. In this way, our experience of the world is deeply personal. The reality of our surroundings is quite unique to the individual, perhaps much more than we realize.

Just as the mere tonal qualities of the instruments are not themselves the feelings and characteristics that come with a piece of music, the people and things in our daily lives are not themselves the emotional responses and characteristics of our experiences. There is a common and powerful thread between the way music functions to produce a feeling, and the way our minds function to produce our environment. In this way, music is filled with many sublime hints that guide us toward an understanding of ourselves and our nature, and helps pacify the insatiable hunger we have for the proper reunion of ourselves and our environment.

I believe this to be the reason music has always been central to cultures and individuals alike, for thousands of years.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Fliquid]
    #2304710 - 02/05/04 01:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i like the idea of the heart beat, that is a very awesome idea.

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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InvisibleKackleDude
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2304972 - 02/05/04 02:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

hyup.


--------------------
yeeeahh, it's gonna be well wicked


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2305039 - 02/05/04 03:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Music is the universal language. It's as simple as that.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2305126 - 02/05/04 03:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

well doo dee doo, la dee da, then!


bleep bleep bleep bleep
bleep bloop bleep bleep
bloop bloop bleep bloop
bloop bleep bloop BLIP!


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2305352 - 02/05/04 04:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

oh I forgot to mention...

Shpongle


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2305990 - 02/05/04 06:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

wamma wamma hamma hamma
hamma hamma lamma lamma
lamma lamma gamma gamma
gamma lamma hamma wamma

oh yeah, Shroomism, you're right; SHPONGLE!


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2306025 - 02/05/04 06:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I just discovered shpongle and I like them

The idea of the mothers heartbeat being the first sound you hear is intresting.

I think with songs as a whole, and this is a little OT, but we attach feeling, emotion to songs. for intence the song you used to listen to with your girlfirend will evoke more obviouse emotions. Perhaps it is easy to make an emotional attachment to music as there is something already exsisting within music that is emotional, oh i dunno:P


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #2306077 - 02/05/04 07:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think actually with my media-raised generation, things like disney movies and just entertainment in general inserts TONS of emotion into music at very early ages...

If you watch cartoons or movies or whatever as a kid, your mind automatically attaches various feelings to all sorts of different sounds.

Then, later, these same feelings can be recalled with the sound alone.

Watch the lord of the rings parts one and two, and then just listen to the soundtrack of part three and you'll get an idea of what I mean :wink:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2307513 - 02/06/04 03:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It came too me during the pregnancy of my girlfriend.  :smile:


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:


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OfflineBlastrid
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Fliquid]
    #2307956 - 02/06/04 10:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Great thread, lots of original approaches to music I strive to see everyday.
Good to read from ya again Fliq!

Check this thread out too:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...&PHPSESSID=

Michael Franti(Spearhead) told a story last night at a show I saw with Ziggy Marley:

The Creator shapes a body out of mud, out of The Earth. And a soul was floating around, he was all happy and free, and he love it.  The Creator told him, "I got big plans for you, Soul.  You're gonna get in this body, and have a form."
The Soul looked at the pile of mud and said, "Are you fuckin kidding me? Why would I want to be in a body of mud when I am already so free?"
So the Creator summoned an angel, and he said, "Angel, I want you to play some music, get your guitar, and gather a few others, and have them get their bass guitar, and some keys, and a drumset, and play some Angelic Music.  Not the really ethereal heavenly music, but some funky shit with a nice backbeat."
So the Angel group started to play, and the Soul said, "damn, that's some funky music! Maybe I should get in that body so I can dance! So I can jump around, so I can move my hips, So I can throw my hands in the air, so I can scream!!!"

I think ever since we could hold a stick to bang something, music has been hardwired into us.  We've used it for different functions, used it to evoke spirituality, or any feeling we've ever felt, or any memory we've remembered, or any rhythmic way we can move.
How we perceive it is fascinating to me, but that's another topic entirely.


Read Ped's post again :wink:


--------------------
Blas'?trid (bl?s tr?d)
    n.  3rd generation derivitave of a combination of 'bastard' and 'blasted'.  Used as both an insult or an expletive.
    ex.  Blastrid!

Stereopattern  <--My music.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Whats the deal with Music? [Re: Blastrid]
    #2308414 - 02/06/04 01:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Hehe, I had searched for an old thread and found that one just a day or two ago and went through and read it. I considered linking to it, but I decided not to... thanks for doing so! :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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