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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233095 - 05/29/05 01:05 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

are you talking about 24-bit digital masters or about analog tape masters or both?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233112 - 05/29/05 01:17 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"I love my vinyl, but they sound better because they're softer due to the inertia of the stylus that digital doesn't have."

I agree you should love your vinyl because they sound better. :thumbup: 

As to your vinyl sounding better due to the softer sound created by the inertia of the stylus  :thumbdown:

As for stylus selection, there are "warmer" or "softer" cartridges as opposed to "brighter" or "crisper" cartridges.  It's a personal preference at some point, like speakers.   

Much of the problem with sound reproduction is having a good enough pre-amp.  With the phono section this becomes even more critical.  Most phono sections are cheap with little gain.  If you have an expensive moving coil cartridge, you need gain and low distortion in the phono section. 

Tube pre-amps sound so much smoother and less harsh than solid state it's amazing.  Check it out.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 01:30 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4233148 - 05/29/05 01:29 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

As to your vinyl sounding better due to the softer sound created by the inertia of the stylus  :thumbdown:

Well, if you don't believe that a CD will reproduce the master waveform exactly while a vinyl record will not, then there's nothing more I can tell you. I guess you'll have to set up the measuring instruments and see the waveforms for yourself.

As for stylus selection, there are "warmer" or "softer" cartridges as opposed to "brighter" or "crisper" cartridges.

Does this not prove my point? How can two styluses, one 'warm' and one 'bright' both reproduce the original waveform exactly? That they are 'warm' and 'bright' means that they distort the sound according to their name.

[sighs]


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233161 - 05/29/05 01:33 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Like I said, I prefer to listen to music with my own ears. Seeing waveforms on measuring machines would mean nothing to me.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233182 - 05/29/05 01:39 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

It's not about resolution of the sound, it's about continuity of the sound.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233190 - 05/29/05 01:42 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Honestly, two different cartridges would have slightly different frequency responses. The goal is flat response, but often they will have some peaks and valleys, with a fall off at the bass and treble end.

The better cartridges will have flatter frequency responses and hence a more neutral sound. But, there are still differences in tonal quality. The same is true with loudspeakers.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4233204 - 05/29/05 01:50 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Honestly, two different cartridges would have slightly different frequency responses

Then which of the two reproduces the original sound exactly? They can't both because you admit they sound different.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Posts: 23,576
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233216 - 05/29/05 01:52 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Intellectual property is a very tricky subject. How does one come to own thoughts? The minute they are uttered, they cease to be yours. If I steal a CD, then I have deprived you of the use of it. But if mp3's are shared, then no one is deprived of the use of the song. Certainly you could say that artists are deprived of the right to profit from it, but what right do they really have to such a thing? Just because a contract says it doesn't make that contract legitimate. If I overhear a concert from outside, am I stealing profits from the artist? What about if a friend plays a cd for me? I think it's fair to say that the artist has a right to prevent others from profiting from their work, but does not have a right to always profit from their songs.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233241 - 05/29/05 02:01 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

How does one come to own thoughts? The minute they are uttered, they cease to be yours.

We're not talking about utterances. We're talking about intellectual property put down in tangible form by its author.

Certainly you could say that artists are deprived of the right to profit from it, but what right do they really have to such a thing?

Well, for starters, the Berne copyright convention, which almost all nations have signed, says that every creative work is
copyrighted the moment it is fixed in tangible form. No explicit notice of copyright is required, though it helps legal cases, and the copyright is good for 50 years after the creator's death.

Copyright law allows for something called "Fair Use" which permits strictly limited use of copyrighted works without explicit permission. Fair-use is what permits a book reviewer to quote brief passages from the book being reviewed without asking for permission. Any broader use of the original copyrighted work requires explicit permission from the owner.

From this, it's clear that society considers the author of a creative work to have the 'right', as you say, to decide what is done with it.

I think it's fair to say that the artist has a right to prevent others from profiting from their work, but does not have a right to always profit from their songs.

An artist should have the right to decide what happens with his work in every respect.

Let me ask you a hypothetical. Say I got a hold of a drop of your blood and decided to clone you. How would you feel about that? Is not your DNA pattern a form of intellectual property and so by your argument, I should be able to use it, copy it, give it away, so long as I don't profit from it?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233249 - 05/29/05 02:03 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

No system would ever be able to reproduce the original sound.  As soon as it left the stage, the alterations began.  :grin:

Worse, now someone is stealing music off the internet.  :shocked:

Figured I had better get back OT...


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 02:13 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233269 - 05/29/05 02:12 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
How does one come to own thoughts? The minute they are uttered, they cease to be yours.

We're not talking about utterances. We're talking about intellectual property put down in tangible form by its author.



In the form of utterances and expressions. This does not refute my statement in any way.

Quote:

Certainly you could say that artists are deprived of the right to profit from it, but what right do they really have to such a thing?

Well, for starters, the Berne copyright convention, which almost all nations have signed, says that every creative work is
copyrighted the moment it is fixed in tangible form. No explicit notice of copyright is required, though it helps legal cases, and the copyright is good for 50 years after the creator's death.



I asked what right the artist had, not what legal provisions the government provided for them.

Quote:

Copyright law allows for something called "Fair Use" which permits strictly limited use of copyrighted works without explicit permission. Fair-use is what permits a book reviewer to quote brief passages from the book being reviewed without asking for permission. Any broader use of the original copyrighted work requires explicit permission from the owner.

From this, it's clear that society considers the author of a creative work to have the 'right', as you say, to decide what is done with it.



Enough of this legal positivism. I am not here to debate legality. I am here to debate the morality of such practices.

Quote:

I think it's fair to say that the artist has a right to prevent others from profiting from their work, but does not have a right to always profit from their songs.

An artist should have the right to decide what happens with his work in every respect.



Really? So they can tell record stores not to sell their work to minorities? Also, if it's all about the artist's decision, then why do the record companies take so much of the revenue? They aren't the artist, are they?

Quote:

Let me ask you a hypothetical. Say I got a hold of a drop of your blood and decided to clone you. How would you feel about that? Is not your DNA pattern a form of intellectual property and so by your argument, I should be able to use it, copy it, give it away, so long as I don't profit from it?



Depends how the blood was obtained. If you forcefully take the blood from my bloodstream, then that's theft. If I have a nosebleed and you take blood from a tissue paper I've used, then that's public domain, and you may do what you want with it.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4233271 - 05/29/05 02:13 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

No system would ever be able to reproduce the original sound.

Not at the speaker, but internally, play back a CD and a vinyl, compare the waveform point for point with the original and the CD will be identical. The vinyl will be colored by the stylus characteristics.

All else being equal, this means that playback at the speaker of a CD will more faithfully recreate the original studio sound than will vinyl.

I've proven this using your own observation of stylus coloring of the sound. What more do you need to be convinced?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233279 - 05/29/05 02:16 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I am here to debate the morality of such practices.

Alright, if I give you my music and you promise not to give it away, is it moral that you do so anyway?

Depends how the blood was obtained.

I picked it up off the floor after you cut your finger.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233289 - 05/29/05 02:19 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I am here to debate the morality of such practices.

Alright, if I give you my music and you promise not to give it away, is it moral that you do so anyway?



No, but that says nothing about duplicating it.

Quote:

Depends how the blood was obtained.

I picked it up off the floor after you cut your finger.



Clone away, my man.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233319 - 05/29/05 02:33 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

No, but that says nothing about duplicating it.

But by up/downloading the music, you're not just duplicating it, you are breaking your promise not to give it away, agreed?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233321 - 05/29/05 02:34 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"What more do you need to be convinced?"

Music and stereo systems and musical reproduction is my bag (I like fucking music).

Stick to computers ya geek!  :grin:

Besides, if you have to measure it on a waveform generator, it shows you don't trust your ears.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 02:37 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233324 - 05/29/05 02:34 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Perhaps the person uploading it is breaking a promise. I don't believe the person downloading it has made any such promise.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233328 - 05/29/05 02:35 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

So, you agree that the person uping is doing something unethical?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233340 - 05/29/05 02:42 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I wouldn't rule out the possiblity. But as I said, intellectual property is very tricky issue.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233353 - 05/29/05 02:45 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I wouldn't rule out the possiblity. But as I said, intellectual property is very tricky issue.

You're being slippery because you know you're on thin ice. Why don't you give me a definite answer to my clear question?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
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