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 OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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 Re: Ethics And Downloading Music  [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232928 - 05/29/05 09:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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wait a second, my definition of the word "album" is a bunch of songs that got composed together to form a whole, and it has nothing to do with the medium. An album can be on a CD, record, cassete etc.
Anyway. While I don't listen to records (there are no stores in my town that sell vinyl), I do agree that they sound better, there is nothing new about that. A brand new (unscratched) record sounds much warmer and fuller than a CD. Which is logical.
A CD would have to be recorded at a much much higher sampling rate than 44000 to sound as continuous and warm as an analog recording.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232929 - 05/29/05 09:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I heard somewhere that LPs are top notch. The problem is getting there full potential from even the best stylus and turntable. Anyone know about this?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232933 - 05/29/05 09:50 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Quick tangent: CDs reproduce the studio sound much better than any vinyl record. You may prefer the sound of vinyl, but that's not because it's a more faithful reproduction, rather it's because you like the subtle, mellow distortion it introduces.
The part about distortion is true, but a CD can not reproduce the fullness of an analog studio tape, vinyl may distort the sound and be less acurate, but it keeps some of the richness with it.
Just like a film print keeps more richness form the negative than a video transfer even thought the video transfer may be more accurate in terms of color balance, contrast etc.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232986 - 05/29/05 10:13 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"CDs reproduce the studio sound much better than any vinyl record"
"rather it's because you like the subtle, mellow distortion it introduces"
Bullshit to both.
I am a classically trained musician with tons of experience listening to live music and stereo systems. I have a stereo system that is doing anything but introducing "subtle, mellow distortions".
My stereo system is in the 5 figure range price wise. My amp puts out 300 watts a side at such low distortion I can create rock concert sound that sounds great.
When I play the CD at a comparable volume to the exact same recording on vinyl, the vinyl is more musical. Period. Sure, there is some background noise on the vinyl, particularly if it was an older album played on lesser gear. But, all instruments sound more like they do in real life. The stereo separation, the staging, it all sounds better. It is a more musical and realistic rendition. The only thing the CD has going for it is less background noise. Other than that, it is not as musical, it is compressed and lacks transients.
I had a close friend who is also a musician do the comparison and he was blown away at how much better the albums sounded. We did this for 4 different albums vs. CDs of the same recording played at the same time. I am able to A-B back and forth rapidly at a very close volume so that is of no influence. Usually the CD plays way louder on most systems. My phono preamp is top of the line tube type with tons more gain than most, and way less distortion in the phono section than most. So, when I A-B from CD to album at the same volume setting the sound levels are comparable.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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the word "album"
He's using (I think) the word to mean a vinyl record. Remember, Lunar's an oldie like me. Us oldies sometimes have different meanings for words than you young whipper-snappers do. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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but a CD can not reproduce the fullness of an analog studio tape
A CD samples at the mathematical limit of human hearing and then some. It reproduces the analog source e-x-a-c-t-l-y. If you compare the signal directly from the studio with vinyl and a CD, the CD signal will reproduce the original e-x-a-c-t-l-y; the vinyl will introduce distortions in several axis that arguably sound nicer, but are a less-faithful reproduction of the original sound heard in the studio during the recording.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4233004 - 05/29/05 10:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Bullshit to both.
A spectrum analizer doesn't lie. 
Measure the waveform from the studio, that from a CD of the studio recording, and that of record, and you will confirm what I'm saying. The reconstruction from the CD will be point for point exactly like the original.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233008 - 05/29/05 10:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"distortions in several axis that arguably sound better"
Are you talking about the transients that make music musical? Of course the music sounds better with them in there.
I don't know what you mean by "faithful reproduction" when it comes to a CD. Is less musical more "faithful"?
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233016 - 05/29/05 10:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"A spectrum analyzer doesn't lie"
Your ears, properly trained, are a much better guide to what is musical than a spectrum analyzer. Listening to live and recorded music, knowing how instruments are supposed to sound, and working towards building a stereo system to recreate that has been a 35 year project for me. I trust my ears.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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trendal
Jâ™
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada 
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233023 - 05/29/05 10:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Lots of people do it; most don't see anything wrong with it.
I say it is theft, and I'd like to see someone argue otherwise.
When you buy music (or software, e-books, or any other copyright electronic intellectual property) you sign an implicit contract with the holder of the copyright not to give copies to others. That this agreement is essentially unenforceable doesn't absolve you from keeping your word. When you give copies to others, you break your word.
For the record, I download stuff too, but unlike many others, I'm honest with myself and acknowledge that I'm a thief.
You bring up a good point, that downloading isn't the same as uploading.
If I download some music, I have signed/agreed to no contract whatsoever, so you can't hold me in breech. 
How can you consider something theft if it involves no loss to the supposed victim?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4233029 - 05/29/05 10:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't know what you mean by "faithful reproduction"
If you take the original studio master tapes and graph the waveform, do the same with a CD and a record made from the masters, the waveform of the CD will be identical in every respect to the master; the waveform of the record will show distortions.
A CD, sampling at 44 kHz can reproduce an instantaneous waveform rising at the rate of 22 kHz (see Nyquist Sampling Theorem), but a stylus running along the grove of a record has inertia (electronic CDs don't) which prevents it from changing directions fast enough to perfectly reproduce this transient.
Add to this the fact that records are recorded using something called RIAA Equalization. This was the precursor to Dolby. Basically, it emphasizes the highs during recording, then during playback, a complimentary EQ curve is applied at the pre-amp to reverse the record EQ. The effect is that the highs are boosted during record, then dropped during playback (along with the hiss and noise) so that you end up with the original music, but also with the hiss and noise EQ'd down. The precision of the record and playback EQ is very hard to get matched up exactly; another reason the playback is distorted. This doesn't happen with digital.
I agree with you that records sound better; I love my vinyl, but they sound better because they're softer due to the inertia of the stylus that digital doesn't have.
Can you tell Diploid is an electrical engineer and a hopless geek? 
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233044 - 05/29/05 10:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Isn't the quality of CD recording of major importance? From what I've read and even heard first hand many CD's off the shelf are recorded clipped. Recording companies today do that do make the CD "loud" which is completely ridiculous.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: trendal]
#4233053 - 05/29/05 10:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If I download some music, I have signed/agreed to no contract whatsoever, so you can't hold me in breech.
So, if I buy known stolen jewelry at a pawn shop, I've preserved my karmic bank account and haven't done anything unethical?
How can you consider something theft if it involves no loss to the supposed victim?
If you steal someone's garbage before they throw it away, it doesn't harm them, but it is still theft. Taking something from someone without their permission is theft regardless of the value of what you stole.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (05/29/05 11:01 AM)
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233054 - 05/29/05 10:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
but a CD can not reproduce the fullness of an analog studio tape
A CD samples at the mathematical limit of human hearing and then some. It reproduces the analog source e-x-a-c-t-l-y. If you compare the signal directly from the studio with vinyl and a CD, the CD signal will reproduce the original e-x-a-c-t-l-y; the vinyl will introduce distortions in several axis that arguably sound nicer, but are a less-faithful reproduction of the original sound heard in the studio during the recording.
Every humans sense has a limit yes, but it detects overtones.
A human eye can see a limited number of lines at a dertain distance, but it does see a difference even beyond that limit due due to overtones in the waves.
Since most trained ears can see the fault in CD's , the limit of hearing that manufacturers claim is obviously not realistic
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233061 - 05/29/05 10:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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IT'S NOT FUCKING THEFT. It's copyright infringement.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233064 - 05/29/05 10:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
the word "album"
He's using (I think) the word to mean a vinyl record. Remember, Lunar's an oldie like me. Us oldies sometimes have different meanings for words than you young whipper-snappers do.
What info about by age do you have? From what do you draw the conclusion that I am either younger or older than you?
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Since most trained ears can see the fault in CD's , the limit of hearing that manufacturers claim is obviously not realistic
This isn't a manufacturer's claim, it is a mathematical certainty.
Can you provide a link to where someone has demonstrated the ability to distinguish between a studio master and a CD of the master? Even people with what's called Golden Ears who can accurately tell the difference between a CD and an MP3 at 256 kbps are unable to hear differences between CDs and master recordings. They can all immediately tell the difference between the master and vinyl, though.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233083 - 05/29/05 10:59 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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No, I can not provide a link..
But I've heard about same kind of tests regarding visual images regarding 2K and 4K digital projection.
I conclude the same rule applies for hearing to because of so much complains about the metallic sharp sound of CD's
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/29/05 11:00 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
#4233085 - 05/29/05 11:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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From what I've read and even heard first hand many CD's off the shelf are recorded clipped. Recording companies today do that do make the CD "loud" which is completely ridiculous.
Well, if the CD isn't properly recorded or distorted intentionally, then sure, it's not gonna match the studio master. But a properly engineered CD will be indistinguishable from the master recording. A vinyl will be immediately obvious.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
#4233093 - 05/29/05 11:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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IT'S NOT FUCKING THEFT. It's copyright infringement.
Giving away material you do not have the right to give away is copyright infringement. Knowingly receiving the material is theft.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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