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 Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Ethics And Downloading Music 
#4232589 - 05/29/05 05:48 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Lots of people do it; most don't see anything wrong with it.
I say it is theft, and I'd like to see someone argue otherwise.
When you buy music (or software, e-books, or any other copyright electronic intellectual property) you sign an implicit contract with the holder of the copyright not to give copies to others. That this agreement is essentially unenforceable doesn't absolve you from keeping your word. When you give copies to others, you break your word.
For the record, I download stuff too, but unlike many others, I'm honest with myself and acknowledge that I'm a thief.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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 SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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 Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232617 - 05/29/05 06:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ill play devils advocate.....
there is a pretty big gray area here, for instance: what if I have bought the cd and it was stolen from my car, would it still be theft if even though I had paid for the intellectual property but now could not enjoy it? I doubt even musicians with downloadable songs would object to me downloading their music after I had already paid for it.
The VCR used to be looked at the same way as Limewire and Kazaa. The movie companies and television stations were outraged that people could now record their intellectual property whenever they wanted to, but in the end it revolutionized imaged media.
What if someone said "hey, psilocyberin, you gotta check out this band "Douchebag and the vinegars" they fuckin rock!", and I go download 3-4 of their songs, enjoy it, and go buy their album. If I dont enjoy it, i delete the files... where is the theft in that?
Also, say that you went to go see "Douchebag and the Vinegars" perform live, and you paid 25 dollars to hear 74 minutes of music from them, would it be theft if I brought a microphone and recording equipment?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232667 - 05/29/05 07:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Being a thief is natural, if you want to look deeply enough into it.
You are talking about this societys rules against stealing material wealth. It's up to you. I choose not to do it in this case. That doesn't make me different than you. You decide what your personal ethics are here. You are honest enough to admit the truth. I like that.  
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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the_phoenix
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4232674 - 05/29/05 07:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm OK with it because I believe that music is art and that art should be free. If people want to donate to artists then that's great, but it shouldn't be an obligation. I've made a few pieces of music and plan to explore this area more in the future, and I'm grateful for the Internet which allows me to get my music out to the people free of charge. I certainly am not interested in signing with a recording company--having the nature of my work influenced and limited, being rushed, being driven more by money, and not even making any net profit unless I 'make it big'.
I can understand that, in a superficial society, superficial commodities of various types, which help structure the society, are subject to copyright. Hehehe, let the little system implode upon itself I say. "One-click e-shoping" is under copyright along with many tiny computerized operations which cannot clearly be isolated or defined, nor their original inventors pinpointed. Thoughts have become copyrighted, and the invention of new things, too similar to or expanding upon old things, hampered.
Copyright maintains fragmentation and, as it becomes applied more and more precisely to a system increasingly understood to be interconnected, is not sustainable. It's a structure ensuring that those with money retain their wealth, and when applied to areas such as art wherein money is not the primary aim, its laughability is highlighted.
Copyright works against spontenaity, against the creation of magnificent works that come naturally to the artist. Artwork that's coincidentally too similar to past artwork is rendered 'unacceptable', even though all art stems from the same place. Boundaries are defined and enforced through copyright. Humanity's collective unconscious is ignored, as is the fact of natural ownership. Everything is essentially natural and should not be subject to entitlement. The idea of arbitrary individual creation, that apparently allows even the smallest little guy to rise to the top in a capitalistic society, is reinforced.
If old techniques cannot be applied in new and improved ways, because they are not available for legal use, then we cannot as a civilization advance. Old out-of-date processes are maintained to hold the market back qualitatively, in favour of amassing more money. So much great technology is held back from the masses so that obsolete and limiting technology, rendered essential to have in contemporary culture, and that rich businesspeople have a large and secure stake in, may be considered "leading edge".
Evolution is being retarded. It is essentially a natural process evolving through fractal repetition that copyright hampers. Copyright mocks ascetism by saying material and wealth-related things of all sorts are of such value so as to warrant protection over their ownership. It promotes a stagnant society driven by consummerism. It becomes (a hollow) goal in itself as people strive to invent something not useful, but something that will market well, that can be copyrighted and ridden for all the $$$ it's worth. Copyright gives people unjust power/influence over other people, makes the masses out purely as consumers who are meant to support the luxury of the elite.
How justly, after all, is the idea of copyright enforced? Whoever has the money to defend their copyright claims in court will likely prevail. Small companies are out of luck, like small computer companies that cannot create any technology because every single damn process between 1s and 0s is under copyright to big companies like Microsoft. I do not approve of forced centrilization around things arbitrarily deemed valuable. I hope one day I don't wake up to discover the workings of my brain, all too similar to those of computers, have been deemed subject to copyright. Perhaps we shall be taxed in order to think, so perhaps it's best not to think about the problem at all. 
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232685 - 05/29/05 07:28 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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you should see the situation here in Croatia.
Most of the town where I live has about 2-3 windows serial numbers, and I'm serious, I'm talking about homes, firms mostly do everything by the book.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/29/05 07:35 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: the_phoenix]
#4232701 - 05/29/05 07:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm OK with it because I believe that music is art and that art should be free.
What gives you the right to make that call for someone else's work? Someone who perhaps depends on the income from his creative work to live?
Further, if I give you a copy of my original music and ask for your promise to keep it to yourself, do you feel it right to break that promise? You agree to this implicitly when you purchase a copyrighted work, you know.
Do you break promises in other areas of life too?
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232722 - 05/29/05 07:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"I'm honest with myself and acknowledge that I'm a thief."
An honest thief. Sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Apparently you keep stealing, because -
A. It's easy and the risk of getting caught is very low.
B. It's cheaper than buying CDs
C. Lots of other people do it who think it's OK
D. All of the above
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232742 - 05/29/05 08:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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We're not discussing why I personally download; we can get into that, but it's the subject of a protracted debate better suited to another thread.
We're discussing whether or not it is right (ethical) to do.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232745 - 05/29/05 08:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have two choices right here right now: buy a CD for every song that I want to listen to, spend LOTS of money, and spend my life not listening to music I like, or take it since it is right in front of my nose, and I don't harm anyone. Those people won't starve because I downlaod their music. The fact that I can find their music on Winmx or Kazaa is a sign that they have or could have a proche probably already.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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and I don't harm anyone
No? Is not taking something from someone who has not given it to you harming them?
Those people won't starve because I downlaod their music
Using this logic, taking a few bucks from my neighbor's wallet when he's not looking is alright because he won't starve over it. Neither is it wrong to steal a pair of pants from the store because nobody will starve over it. Neither is robbing a bank, for that matter, because no one will starve over it.
The fact that I can find their music on Winmx or Kazaa is a sign that they have or could have a proche probably already
This is quite a leap of rationalization. You don't know anything about the artist; he could be rich, or struggling to write music to pay the bills. How does his bank statement change the ethics of taking something he did not give you?
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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CaRnAgECaNdY
Tool's groupie
Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 11,505
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Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232752 - 05/29/05 08:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I only download until I buy what I want. Everything I've bought, I've downloaded in the past.
There may be a few very old songs that i can't find anywhere that I have on my computer.
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The secret to being funny is to say smart things stupidly, or is it stupid things smartly? Whatever..it's not rocket surgery...or something like that.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232780 - 05/29/05 08:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"We're discussing whether or not it is right (ethical) to do."
Of course it's not ethical, why would stealing be ethical?
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232786 - 05/29/05 08:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Of course it's not ethical, why would stealing be ethical?
Several in this thread have already tried to make the case that there's nothing wrong with it. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232787 - 05/29/05 08:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
and I don't harm anyone
No? Is not taking something from someone who has not given it to you harming them?
Those people won't starve because I downlaod their music
Using this logic, taking a few bucks from my neighbor's wallet when he's not looking is alright because he won't starve over it. Neither is it wrong to steal a pair of pants from the store because nobody will starve over it. Neither is robbing a bank, for that matter, because no one will starve over it.
The fact that I can find their music on Winmx or Kazaa is a sign that they have or could have a proche probably already
This is quite a leap of rationalization. You don't know anything about the artist; he could be rich, or struggling to write music to pay the bills. How does his bank statement change the ethics of taking something he did not give you?
I'm not saying that this is moral, I'm just saying I do it
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232801 - 05/29/05 08:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think younger people who have grown up with computers and MP3 players and file swapping logically view this as something less than stealing.
Us older folk who had albums and maybe made a few cassettes that we played in the car grew up in a whole different world. Music was money to us. So now, we tend to view downloading as stealing.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232811 - 05/29/05 08:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Even today, nothing can replace the feeling of buying an album. It is a ritual in itself. You have a hard copy of the music, the cover, the little book inside etc.
So when I really want to have something, I buy an album. For example, I like listening to Vangelis, and It just doesn't feel in place when I'm listening to mp3's. Listening to original music is much more, you know, the real thing, (don't know how to express myself differently)
I download music for casual listening. For example I hear some old 60's song in some movie, and I want to listen to it, so I simply download it.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Annom
※※※※※※
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Posts: 6,367
Loc: Europe
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232824 - 05/29/05 09:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I agree. It is theft.
I also download stuff and I'm honest with myself and acknowledge that I'm a thief.
There is one thing I always tell myself: I'm a poor student and I don't have much money. I don't have the money to buy many CD's and DVD's. I would never ever buy everything I download. Downloading something I would never ever buy is not a real theft. Photoshop is way too expensive for me and I would never buy it so it doesn't do any harm to Adobe. I'm sure I will buy much more if I have more money and I do buy some DVD's now if I want to support them.
I download music and moves and I buy books  
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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"nothing can replace the feeling of buying an album"
Amen. The best news, is that albums are far better sonically than CDs. I have compared several of the same recordings I have on vinyl and CD and the difference is staggering. The album always sounds way better. And my CD player is top of the line.
The myth that CDs don't skip is just that. I have had many more CDs skip over the years than albums.
The only thing CDs offer is convenience, portability, and car playability.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 09:37 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232906 - 05/29/05 09:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quick tangent: CDs reproduce the studio sound much better than any vinyl record. You may prefer the sound of vinyl, but that's not because it's a more faithful reproduction, rather it's because you like the subtle, mellow distortion it introduces.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232911 - 05/29/05 09:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's not theft. It's copyright infringement.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232928 - 05/29/05 09:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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wait a second, my definition of the word "album" is a bunch of songs that got composed together to form a whole, and it has nothing to do with the medium. An album can be on a CD, record, cassete etc.
Anyway. While I don't listen to records (there are no stores in my town that sell vinyl), I do agree that they sound better, there is nothing new about that. A brand new (unscratched) record sounds much warmer and fuller than a CD. Which is logical.
A CD would have to be recorded at a much much higher sampling rate than 44000 to sound as continuous and warm as an analog recording.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4232929 - 05/29/05 09:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I heard somewhere that LPs are top notch. The problem is getting there full potential from even the best stylus and turntable. Anyone know about this?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232933 - 05/29/05 09:50 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Quick tangent: CDs reproduce the studio sound much better than any vinyl record. You may prefer the sound of vinyl, but that's not because it's a more faithful reproduction, rather it's because you like the subtle, mellow distortion it introduces.
The part about distortion is true, but a CD can not reproduce the fullness of an analog studio tape, vinyl may distort the sound and be less acurate, but it keeps some of the richness with it.
Just like a film print keeps more richness form the negative than a video transfer even thought the video transfer may be more accurate in terms of color balance, contrast etc.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4232986 - 05/29/05 10:13 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"CDs reproduce the studio sound much better than any vinyl record"
"rather it's because you like the subtle, mellow distortion it introduces"
Bullshit to both.
I am a classically trained musician with tons of experience listening to live music and stereo systems. I have a stereo system that is doing anything but introducing "subtle, mellow distortions".
My stereo system is in the 5 figure range price wise. My amp puts out 300 watts a side at such low distortion I can create rock concert sound that sounds great.
When I play the CD at a comparable volume to the exact same recording on vinyl, the vinyl is more musical. Period. Sure, there is some background noise on the vinyl, particularly if it was an older album played on lesser gear. But, all instruments sound more like they do in real life. The stereo separation, the staging, it all sounds better. It is a more musical and realistic rendition. The only thing the CD has going for it is less background noise. Other than that, it is not as musical, it is compressed and lacks transients.
I had a close friend who is also a musician do the comparison and he was blown away at how much better the albums sounded. We did this for 4 different albums vs. CDs of the same recording played at the same time. I am able to A-B back and forth rapidly at a very close volume so that is of no influence. Usually the CD plays way louder on most systems. My phono preamp is top of the line tube type with tons more gain than most, and way less distortion in the phono section than most. So, when I A-B from CD to album at the same volume setting the sound levels are comparable.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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the word "album"
He's using (I think) the word to mean a vinyl record. Remember, Lunar's an oldie like me. Us oldies sometimes have different meanings for words than you young whipper-snappers do. 
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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but a CD can not reproduce the fullness of an analog studio tape
A CD samples at the mathematical limit of human hearing and then some. It reproduces the analog source e-x-a-c-t-l-y. If you compare the signal directly from the studio with vinyl and a CD, the CD signal will reproduce the original e-x-a-c-t-l-y; the vinyl will introduce distortions in several axis that arguably sound nicer, but are a less-faithful reproduction of the original sound heard in the studio during the recording.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4233004 - 05/29/05 10:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Bullshit to both.
A spectrum analizer doesn't lie.
Measure the waveform from the studio, that from a CD of the studio recording, and that of record, and you will confirm what I'm saying. The reconstruction from the CD will be point for point exactly like the original.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233008 - 05/29/05 10:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"distortions in several axis that arguably sound better"
Are you talking about the transients that make music musical? Of course the music sounds better with them in there.
I don't know what you mean by "faithful reproduction" when it comes to a CD. Is less musical more "faithful"?
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233016 - 05/29/05 10:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"A spectrum analyzer doesn't lie"
Your ears, properly trained, are a much better guide to what is musical than a spectrum analyzer. Listening to live and recorded music, knowing how instruments are supposed to sound, and working towards building a stereo system to recreate that has been a 35 year project for me. I trust my ears.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada 
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233023 - 05/29/05 10:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Lots of people do it; most don't see anything wrong with it.
I say it is theft, and I'd like to see someone argue otherwise.
When you buy music (or software, e-books, or any other copyright electronic intellectual property) you sign an implicit contract with the holder of the copyright not to give copies to others. That this agreement is essentially unenforceable doesn't absolve you from keeping your word. When you give copies to others, you break your word.
For the record, I download stuff too, but unlike many others, I'm honest with myself and acknowledge that I'm a thief.
You bring up a good point, that downloading isn't the same as uploading.
If I download some music, I have signed/agreed to no contract whatsoever, so you can't hold me in breech.
How can you consider something theft if it involves no loss to the supposed victim?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4233029 - 05/29/05 10:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't know what you mean by "faithful reproduction"
If you take the original studio master tapes and graph the waveform, do the same with a CD and a record made from the masters, the waveform of the CD will be identical in every respect to the master; the waveform of the record will show distortions.
A CD, sampling at 44 kHz can reproduce an instantaneous waveform rising at the rate of 22 kHz (see Nyquist Sampling Theorem), but a stylus running along the grove of a record has inertia (electronic CDs don't) which prevents it from changing directions fast enough to perfectly reproduce this transient.
Add to this the fact that records are recorded using something called RIAA Equalization. This was the precursor to Dolby. Basically, it emphasizes the highs during recording, then during playback, a complimentary EQ curve is applied at the pre-amp to reverse the record EQ. The effect is that the highs are boosted during record, then dropped during playback (along with the hiss and noise) so that you end up with the original music, but also with the hiss and noise EQ'd down. The precision of the record and playback EQ is very hard to get matched up exactly; another reason the playback is distorted. This doesn't happen with digital.
I agree with you that records sound better; I love my vinyl, but they sound better because they're softer due to the inertia of the stylus that digital doesn't have.
Can you tell Diploid is an electrical engineer and a hopless geek? 
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233044 - 05/29/05 10:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Isn't the quality of CD recording of major importance? From what I've read and even heard first hand many CD's off the shelf are recorded clipped. Recording companies today do that do make the CD "loud" which is completely ridiculous.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: trendal]
#4233053 - 05/29/05 10:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If I download some music, I have signed/agreed to no contract whatsoever, so you can't hold me in breech.
So, if I buy known stolen jewelry at a pawn shop, I've preserved my karmic bank account and haven't done anything unethical?
How can you consider something theft if it involves no loss to the supposed victim?
If you steal someone's garbage before they throw it away, it doesn't harm them, but it is still theft. Taking something from someone without their permission is theft regardless of the value of what you stole.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (05/29/05 11:01 AM)
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233054 - 05/29/05 10:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
but a CD can not reproduce the fullness of an analog studio tape
A CD samples at the mathematical limit of human hearing and then some. It reproduces the analog source e-x-a-c-t-l-y. If you compare the signal directly from the studio with vinyl and a CD, the CD signal will reproduce the original e-x-a-c-t-l-y; the vinyl will introduce distortions in several axis that arguably sound nicer, but are a less-faithful reproduction of the original sound heard in the studio during the recording.
Every humans sense has a limit yes, but it detects overtones.
A human eye can see a limited number of lines at a dertain distance, but it does see a difference even beyond that limit due due to overtones in the waves.
Since most trained ears can see the fault in CD's , the limit of hearing that manufacturers claim is obviously not realistic
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233061 - 05/29/05 10:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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IT'S NOT FUCKING THEFT. It's copyright infringement.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233064 - 05/29/05 10:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
the word "album"
He's using (I think) the word to mean a vinyl record. Remember, Lunar's an oldie like me. Us oldies sometimes have different meanings for words than you young whipper-snappers do.
What info about by age do you have? From what do you draw the conclusion that I am either younger or older than you?
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Since most trained ears can see the fault in CD's , the limit of hearing that manufacturers claim is obviously not realistic
This isn't a manufacturer's claim, it is a mathematical certainty.
Can you provide a link to where someone has demonstrated the ability to distinguish between a studio master and a CD of the master? Even people with what's called Golden Ears who can accurately tell the difference between a CD and an MP3 at 256 kbps are unable to hear differences between CDs and master recordings. They can all immediately tell the difference between the master and vinyl, though.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233083 - 05/29/05 10:59 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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No, I can not provide a link..
But I've heard about same kind of tests regarding visual images regarding 2K and 4K digital projection.
I conclude the same rule applies for hearing to because of so much complains about the metallic sharp sound of CD's
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/29/05 11:00 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
#4233085 - 05/29/05 11:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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From what I've read and even heard first hand many CD's off the shelf are recorded clipped. Recording companies today do that do make the CD "loud" which is completely ridiculous.
Well, if the CD isn't properly recorded or distorted intentionally, then sure, it's not gonna match the studio master. But a properly engineered CD will be indistinguishable from the master recording. A vinyl will be immediately obvious.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
#4233093 - 05/29/05 11:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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IT'S NOT FUCKING THEFT. It's copyright infringement.
Giving away material you do not have the right to give away is copyright infringement. Knowingly receiving the material is theft.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233095 - 05/29/05 11:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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are you talking about 24-bit digital masters or about analog tape masters or both?
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233112 - 05/29/05 11:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"I love my vinyl, but they sound better because they're softer due to the inertia of the stylus that digital doesn't have."
I agree you should love your vinyl because they sound better.
As to your vinyl sounding better due to the softer sound created by the inertia of the stylus 
As for stylus selection, there are "warmer" or "softer" cartridges as opposed to "brighter" or "crisper" cartridges. It's a personal preference at some point, like speakers.
Much of the problem with sound reproduction is having a good enough pre-amp. With the phono section this becomes even more critical. Most phono sections are cheap with little gain. If you have an expensive moving coil cartridge, you need gain and low distortion in the phono section.
Tube pre-amps sound so much smoother and less harsh than solid state it's amazing. Check it out.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 11:30 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4233148 - 05/29/05 11:29 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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As to your vinyl sounding better due to the softer sound created by the inertia of the stylus
Well, if you don't believe that a CD will reproduce the master waveform exactly while a vinyl record will not, then there's nothing more I can tell you. I guess you'll have to set up the measuring instruments and see the waveforms for yourself.
As for stylus selection, there are "warmer" or "softer" cartridges as opposed to "brighter" or "crisper" cartridges.
Does this not prove my point? How can two styluses, one 'warm' and one 'bright' both reproduce the original waveform exactly? That they are 'warm' and 'bright' means that they distort the sound according to their name.
[sighs]
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233161 - 05/29/05 11:33 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Like I said, I prefer to listen to music with my own ears. Seeing waveforms on measuring machines would mean nothing to me.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233182 - 05/29/05 11:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's not about resolution of the sound, it's about continuity of the sound.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233190 - 05/29/05 11:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Honestly, two different cartridges would have slightly different frequency responses. The goal is flat response, but often they will have some peaks and valleys, with a fall off at the bass and treble end.
The better cartridges will have flatter frequency responses and hence a more neutral sound. But, there are still differences in tonal quality. The same is true with loudspeakers.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4233204 - 05/29/05 11:50 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Honestly, two different cartridges would have slightly different frequency responses
Then which of the two reproduces the original sound exactly? They can't both because you admit they sound different.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233216 - 05/29/05 11:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Intellectual property is a very tricky subject. How does one come to own thoughts? The minute they are uttered, they cease to be yours. If I steal a CD, then I have deprived you of the use of it. But if mp3's are shared, then no one is deprived of the use of the song. Certainly you could say that artists are deprived of the right to profit from it, but what right do they really have to such a thing? Just because a contract says it doesn't make that contract legitimate. If I overhear a concert from outside, am I stealing profits from the artist? What about if a friend plays a cd for me? I think it's fair to say that the artist has a right to prevent others from profiting from their work, but does not have a right to always profit from their songs.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233241 - 05/29/05 12:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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How does one come to own thoughts? The minute they are uttered, they cease to be yours.
We're not talking about utterances. We're talking about intellectual property put down in tangible form by its author.
Certainly you could say that artists are deprived of the right to profit from it, but what right do they really have to such a thing?
Well, for starters, the Berne copyright convention, which almost all nations have signed, says that every creative work is
copyrighted the moment it is fixed in tangible form. No explicit notice of copyright is required, though it helps legal cases, and the copyright is good for 50 years after the creator's death.
Copyright law allows for something called "Fair Use" which permits strictly limited use of copyrighted works without explicit permission. Fair-use is what permits a book reviewer to quote brief passages from the book being reviewed without asking for permission. Any broader use of the original copyrighted work requires explicit permission from the owner.
From this, it's clear that society considers the author of a creative work to have the 'right', as you say, to decide what is done with it.
I think it's fair to say that the artist has a right to prevent others from profiting from their work, but does not have a right to always profit from their songs.
An artist should have the right to decide what happens with his work in every respect.
Let me ask you a hypothetical. Say I got a hold of a drop of your blood and decided to clone you. How would you feel about that? Is not your DNA pattern a form of intellectual property and so by your argument, I should be able to use it, copy it, give it away, so long as I don't profit from it?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233249 - 05/29/05 12:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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No system would ever be able to reproduce the original sound. As soon as it left the stage, the alterations began.
Worse, now someone is stealing music off the internet. 
Figured I had better get back OT...
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 12:13 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233269 - 05/29/05 12:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
How does one come to own thoughts? The minute they are uttered, they cease to be yours.
We're not talking about utterances. We're talking about intellectual property put down in tangible form by its author.
In the form of utterances and expressions. This does not refute my statement in any way.
Quote:
Certainly you could say that artists are deprived of the right to profit from it, but what right do they really have to such a thing?
Well, for starters, the Berne copyright convention, which almost all nations have signed, says that every creative work is
copyrighted the moment it is fixed in tangible form. No explicit notice of copyright is required, though it helps legal cases, and the copyright is good for 50 years after the creator's death.
I asked what right the artist had, not what legal provisions the government provided for them.
Quote:
Copyright law allows for something called "Fair Use" which permits strictly limited use of copyrighted works without explicit permission. Fair-use is what permits a book reviewer to quote brief passages from the book being reviewed without asking for permission. Any broader use of the original copyrighted work requires explicit permission from the owner.
From this, it's clear that society considers the author of a creative work to have the 'right', as you say, to decide what is done with it.
Enough of this legal positivism. I am not here to debate legality. I am here to debate the morality of such practices.
Quote:
I think it's fair to say that the artist has a right to prevent others from profiting from their work, but does not have a right to always profit from their songs.
An artist should have the right to decide what happens with his work in every respect.
Really? So they can tell record stores not to sell their work to minorities? Also, if it's all about the artist's decision, then why do the record companies take so much of the revenue? They aren't the artist, are they?
Quote:
Let me ask you a hypothetical. Say I got a hold of a drop of your blood and decided to clone you. How would you feel about that? Is not your DNA pattern a form of intellectual property and so by your argument, I should be able to use it, copy it, give it away, so long as I don't profit from it?
Depends how the blood was obtained. If you forcefully take the blood from my bloodstream, then that's theft. If I have a nosebleed and you take blood from a tissue paper I've used, then that's public domain, and you may do what you want with it.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4233271 - 05/29/05 12:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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No system would ever be able to reproduce the original sound.
Not at the speaker, but internally, play back a CD and a vinyl, compare the waveform point for point with the original and the CD will be identical. The vinyl will be colored by the stylus characteristics.
All else being equal, this means that playback at the speaker of a CD will more faithfully recreate the original studio sound than will vinyl.
I've proven this using your own observation of stylus coloring of the sound. What more do you need to be convinced?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233279 - 05/29/05 12:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am here to debate the morality of such practices.
Alright, if I give you my music and you promise not to give it away, is it moral that you do so anyway?
Depends how the blood was obtained.
I picked it up off the floor after you cut your finger.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233289 - 05/29/05 12:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
I am here to debate the morality of such practices.
Alright, if I give you my music and you promise not to give it away, is it moral that you do so anyway?
No, but that says nothing about duplicating it.
Quote:
Depends how the blood was obtained.
I picked it up off the floor after you cut your finger.
Clone away, my man.
--------------------
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233319 - 05/29/05 12:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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No, but that says nothing about duplicating it.
But by up/downloading the music, you're not just duplicating it, you are breaking your promise not to give it away, agreed?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233321 - 05/29/05 12:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"What more do you need to be convinced?"
Music and stereo systems and musical reproduction is my bag (I like fucking music).
Stick to computers ya geek!
Besides, if you have to measure it on a waveform generator, it shows you don't trust your ears.
--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 12:37 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233324 - 05/29/05 12:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Perhaps the person uploading it is breaking a promise. I don't believe the person downloading it has made any such promise.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233328 - 05/29/05 12:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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So, you agree that the person uping is doing something unethical?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233340 - 05/29/05 12:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I wouldn't rule out the possiblity. But as I said, intellectual property is very tricky issue.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233353 - 05/29/05 12:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I wouldn't rule out the possiblity. But as I said, intellectual property is very tricky issue.
You're being slippery because you know you're on thin ice. Why don't you give me a definite answer to my clear question?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233370 - 05/29/05 12:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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This digital vs analog sound-discussion is as old, as the digital medias arose.
There is one relative simple experiment, which opened my mind:
You need a laser(pointer), two speakers and two tiny mirrors...
Fix the mirrors on the speakers, so that they can swing like the speakers-membrane. Then plug the speakers to each channel of some (hopefully analog) amplifier.
Fix the speakers so that the laser-beam hits both mirrors (the speakers must stand quite near together) and then some projection-space.
Now, if you are lucky, you have an analog synthesizer at hand, but analog sound-sources (old record/tapeplayer) will work, too.
See what happens with the laser-projection, if you put the analog sounds through the 'system'. It's quite astonishing ! It's like you can see 'into' the sound. Many patterns and with a analog-synth, you can play with the patterns.
My friends and I 'engineered' a quite long while for a 'perfect' beamer. At least, the projections covered a whole wall. They look much like mandalas, what is really a very great show !
And then, if you feed this 'sound-system' with digital sounds...you will see 'nothing'. Really ! There's only a 'dumb' and boring oval which moves a bit, whatever you will play through the system.
If you sometimes have 'seen' this difference between analog and digital sound/music, you will understand why analog music is way better (from the quality), then digital one (even the engineers try their best to analogize the digital form back again, but lots of information has gotten lost through digitalizing)
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233372 - 05/29/05 12:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is no definite answer I can give, because it's not as clear-cut as you would like to believe. Does copyright law prevent you from buying a cd and giving it away as a present? No. Have I made any sort of agreement with an artist by recieving such a gift? No. So if I upload that cd, I am not breaking any promise. Frankly, I have never heard of any copyright which prohibits the buyer from giving it away.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: BlueCoyote]
#4233387 - 05/29/05 12:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you sometimes have 'seen' this difference between analog and digital sound/music, you will understand why analog music is way better
Analog may sound better, but it is a less faithfull reproduction of the original.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233393 - 05/29/05 12:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is no definite answer I can give, because it's not as clear-cut as you would like to believe.
Well, if you can't give a yes/no answer to a yes/no question, then the debate can't proceed. If everything is a maybe, then we can never get anywhere.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233398 - 05/29/05 12:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
There is no definite answer I can give, because it's not as clear-cut as you would like to believe.
Well, if you can't give a yes/no answer to a yes/no question, then the debate can't proceed. If everything is a maybe, then we'll never get anywhere.
This is equivalent to saying that agnostics have no place in debates about God. I am agnostic on this issue. Take from that what you will.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233402 - 05/29/05 12:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"giving it away"
If you buy a CD for someone else, and give them the original, no problem.
If you buy a CD for yourself, and make 1000 copies for your various houses across the continents, no problem.
If you buy a CD for yourself, and make a copy for someone else, and don't charge them, that is copyright infringement on a minor scale.
If you buy a CD, make 1000 copies and sell them, that's copyright infringement that could be problematic for you.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,679
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233406 - 05/29/05 12:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Here is ethics. Information should be free. To charge someone for information that they need is unethical and I refuse to abide by these antiquated laws concerning so called intellectual property. If your neighbor needed some information would you extort money from him before you gave him the information? Digital media IS information plain and simple. It is ethical to charge for services such as doing actual work or teaching people to exploit the information that you make available for free. Do we not live in a community...although it is global it still should embrace the values of community and sharing. The Linux operating system and the associated software is proof that useful and entertaining digital media can be created by a community for use by the community free of charge. Musicians should be paid for their work, but let them be paid for their performance instead...in other words make them work. Recorded music can be used to promote their performances. This means they make less money. Don't feel sorry for these people. Our society makes them millionaire and puts them on a pedestal for no reason. Let the people who love music return to the stage and ditch all of these mass marketed hype driven money machines. 50,000 to 100,000 a year is acceptable for a musician who is popular...we don't need to make them filthy rich for such a small service. Music and art (like all professions) should be done for the love of the art and people.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4233438 - 05/29/05 01:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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So by your argument, any dead artist who is inherently unable to get paid by live performance, is therefore unable to provide for their children and widows?
What a crock that is...people who create music deserve to be compensated for their work, living or dead.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4233464 - 05/29/05 01:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
So by your argument, any dead artist who is inherently unable to get paid by live performance, is therefore unable to provide for their children and widows?
This is why we have a thing in our society called "savings."
Quote:
What a crock that is...people who create music deserve to be compensated for their work, living or dead.
Certainly. That's what he just said. Compensate them for their work(i.e. performances).
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233506 - 05/29/05 01:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"This is why we have a thing in our society called "savings"."
No, this is why we have a thing in our society called "royalty checks". People are entitled to be paid for their intellectual work, living or dead. This is true for music, literature, movies, etc. etc.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233527 - 05/29/05 01:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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This is equivalent to saying that agnostics have no place in debates about God. I am agnostic on this issue. Take from that what you will.
No, this is like saying that if you cannot answer yes/no (true/false) questions, then I cannot lead you to a logical conclusion about an ethical question.
I can ask an agnostic questions of the form "Is it right to do X?" and they will answer with a yes or no. I've asked you a similar question and you've refused to commit to an answer.
Take from that what YOU will.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4233537 - 05/29/05 01:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Here is ethics.
Alright, lemme try with you:
If I give you my music and you promise not to give it away, is it ethical that you do so anyway?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233544 - 05/29/05 01:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Here is ethics.
Alright, lemme try with you:
If I give you my music and you promise not to give it away, is it ethical that you do so anyway?
What makes it your music? Is all the information in it original?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 months, 3 days
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233558 - 05/29/05 01:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
Does copyright law prevent you from buying a cd and giving it away as a present? No. Have I made any sort of agreement with an artist by recieving such a gift? No. So if I upload that cd, I am not breaking any promise.
It doesn't matter if you have made an "agreement" with the artist or not, the law still prohibits uploading the cd. Regardless of whether or not you were the one who initially bought the product, the simple fact that you have ownership of the property legally binds you to the conditions of what can and cannot be done with that property.
If I get pulled over by a cop by driving a vehicle on a public road without having went through the procedure to obtain a valid driver's license, I cannot claim that I am not subject to the speeding laws because I have not officially entered into an "agreement" with the state by obtaining a valid driver's license.
Also, having ownership does not equate into an absolute right to do whatever act with that property as one wishes. I cannot legally shoot some stranger in the face with a shotgun simply by legally owning the gun.
Quote:
Frankly, I have never heard of any copyright which prohibits the buyer from giving it away.
Obviously not, but I do not understand how this is relevant to the topic at hand. Receiving a cd as a gift, thereby having ownership of it transferred over to yourself, does not in any way waive you of the responsibility to fufill copyrights.
By the way, interesting side topic as well.
 
Peace.
--------------------
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233570 - 05/29/05 01:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nice spin.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 months, 3 days
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233571 - 05/29/05 01:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
What makes it your music? Is all the information in it original?
In the exact manner in that it was expressed and copyrighted, yes, the information in it is original.
That stands regardless of what influences might have played a part in the formation, arrangement, and presentation of that information as long as that information does not illegally represent previously copyrighted information in the exact form in which it was copyrighted.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: fireworks_god]
#4233584 - 05/29/05 02:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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FG, good to see you are in full understanding and support of the copyright laws.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 02:15 PM)
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: fireworks_god]
#4233585 - 05/29/05 02:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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A laws existence does not equate to it's correctness.
I'm of the opinion that anything I wouldn't normally have bought I will download for free. I won't download video games because I would have normally paid for them so I think it's only fair to pay. But if I download Green Day's newest album I have no problem doing so because if I couldn't download it I wouldn't have bought it anyways. The artist and the recording industry isn't losing any money from me because I would never have bough the CD even if I couldn't get it for free.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
#4233592 - 05/29/05 02:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
cb9fl said:
A laws existence does not equate to it's correctness.
Exactly. I'd expect drug users, of all people, to understand that legality does not equate to morality.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
#4233601 - 05/29/05 02:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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A laws existence does not equate to it's correctness.
But your implicit agreement to comply with the wishes of the copyright holder when you purchase the music makes it unethical for you to break that agreement. If you don't like the agreement, don't agree by buying the music.
All I hear to counter this argument is that I do not have a right to determine what happens with my creation. Where do you get off deciding what rights I have over MY work?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233610 - 05/29/05 02:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
A laws existence does not equate to it's correctness.
But your implicit agreement to comply with the wishes of the copyright holder when you purchase the music makes it unethical for you to break that agreement. If you don't like the agreement, don't agree by buying the music.
I don't. That's why I download it.
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233613 - 05/29/05 02:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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But your implicit agreement to comply with the wishes of the copyright holder when you purchase the music makes it unethical for you to break that agreement.
Really? So is smoking marijuana or eating mushrooms unethical?
Just because something is illegal doesn't make it unethical.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 months, 3 days
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4233624 - 05/29/05 02:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
It is ethical to charge for services such as doing actual work or teaching people to exploit the information that you make available for free.
Wouldn't "teaching people to exploit information that you offer for free" simply just be offering them more information in order to exploit that information? You say that it is ethical to actually perform work, and that it isn't ethical to charge for information, as it should be exchanged freely, but yet any act of conveying or making information available is work.
Quote:
Musicians should be paid for their work, but let them be paid for their performance instead...in other words make them work.
I fail to understand your reasoning here, in the sense that time, effort, work is put into the creation of recorded material that is then offered as a product for exchange. Perhaps you haven't went through take after take, constantly repeating the same solo in a struggle to get it exactly the way it needs to be in order to slide right into that groove and convey that just right feel of emotion, the whole while your drummer is whining like a bitch, your producer is offering suggestions that contradict what you feel needs to be done with your musikk, the temperature and humidity in the room is through the roof because you are purposely changing the atmosphere in order to get a Southern, swampy vibe in your guitar tone, and you are constantly thinking in the back of your head about how each minute is costing you dollars (that, apparently, you don't deserve to have anyways   ).... Sounds like work to me. Of course, if you are mentally registering all of this at once, you aren't going to even be able to play, anyways.
Quote:
Recorded music can be used to promote their performances. This means they make less money. Don't feel sorry for these people. Our society makes them millionaire and puts them on a pedestal for no reason.
Ja, musicians make tons of money that they don't need.
A lucky few might get enough publicity to pull in some millions, but I know of a lot of really good bands that I listen to that all have to work second jobs... I also do not see why you are entitled to the position of being able to judge who does and does not deserve how much money they need or don't need.
Quote:
we don't need to make them filthy rich for such a small service. Music and art (like all professions) should be done for the love of the art and people.
The "size" of the service is defined by the participators in the exchange, who decide how much of what is being exchanged. If it happens that a musician is making $2 off of a cd sold for $18, then that is the nature of the exchange made. Your judgement of what the size of the exchange should/should not be is not relevant at all to the exchange unless you are one of the people participating in the exchange. 
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233627 - 05/29/05 02:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't. That's why I download it.
Buying, or receiving as a gift, known stolen merchandise is still unethical.
Also, you keep making this argument but you refuse to answer the questions that logically lead to a contradiction. This isn't fair. If you're going to participate in the debate, you should at least be willing to answer questions that paint your ethics into a corner.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
#4233630 - 05/29/05 02:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Really? So is smoking marijuana or eating mushrooms unethical?
What does this have to do with the price of tea?
I'm not talking about what's legal. I'm talking about what's right.
When you buy the music, you make a promise to the guy who sold you the music. Breaking that promise is wrong; it also happens to be illegal.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233631 - 05/29/05 02:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Buying, or receiving as a gift, known stolen merchandise is still unethical.
There is no universal set of ethics. You may find it unethical while I don't. How many times am I going to have to repeat the following.
A laws existence does not equate to it's correctness.
Just because something is illegal doesn't make it unethical.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233632 - 05/29/05 02:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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But it's not stolen. The original copy is in the hands of its owner. Theft involves taking something from someone else and depriving them of their possession.
As for this question you keep alluding to, my answer is still a maybe. It depends on a numer of other factors, on which I am still undecided.
--------------------
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 months, 3 days
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
#4233646 - 05/29/05 02:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
cb9fl said:
A laws existence does not equate to it's correctness.
Regardless, that fact doesn't equate into your freedom from that law if you happen to be underneath that law's jurisdiction.
Quote:
I'm of the opinion that anything I wouldn't normally have bought I will download for free ..... But if I download Green Day's newest album I have no problem doing so because if I couldn't download it I wouldn't have bought it anyways. The artist and the recording industry isn't losing any money from me because I would never have bough the CD even if I couldn't get it for free.
Prefabricated, adopted, cookie cutter excuse #34.
Seriously, man, that doesn't even make sense, "your" "logic" is severely flawed. "I wouldn't have bought the digital camera from Wal*Mart anyways, so, since I would have never bought it, it doesn't matter if I shoplift it because they wouldn't have made the money from my purchasing the digital camera anyways.
The musikk you downloaded is an illegal representation of a product whose rights belong to someone else the moment you download it without entering an official exchange for that product. No amount of "well, I wouldn't have bought it anyways" and similar no-thinking will bypass this.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
|
newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: fireworks_god]
#4233654 - 05/29/05 02:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Regardless, that fact doesn't equate into your freedom from that law if you happen to be underneath that law's jurisdiction.
Of course "it" remains illegal. But I feel certain laws are unjust and choose to break them.
The musikk you downloaded is an illegal representation of a product whose rights belong to someone else the moment you download it without entering an official exchange for that product. No amount of "well, I wouldn't have bought it anyways" and similar no-thinking will bypass this.
What point are you trying to make? That downloading music is illegal? We all know that. Are you trying to say it is inherently unethical? Well then you're wrong.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233660 - 05/29/05 02:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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As for this question you keep alluding to, my answer is still a maybe. It depends on a numer of other factors, on which I am still undecided.
Interesting. You are very decidedly in favor of downloading intellectual property that does not belong to you, yet you're undecided on questions that can show you to contradict yourself.
Again, this isn't fair. If you're going to participate in the debate, you should at least be willing to answer questions that paint your ethics into a corner, not just the convenient ones.
Is your position so weak that it will not withstand scrutiny?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (05/29/05 02:38 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
#4233665 - 05/29/05 02:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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But I feel certain laws are unjust and choose to break them.
If you believe your agreement with the owner of a creative work is unjust, then why do you agree by making the purchase? Nobody is twisting your arm.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 months, 3 days
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
#4233670 - 05/29/05 02:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
cb9fl said:
What point are you trying to make? That downloading music is illegal? We all know that. Are you trying to say it is inherently unethical? Well then you're wrong.
Well, I'm glad to know that I am "wrong" if I am trying to say a certain something, but the fact is that I am not saying it, so it doesn't apply, and also that it seems ironic that, for someone who is proposing there is no inherent ethics, you would use a label such as "wrong".
If "we all know that" downloading musikk is illegal (obviously, not all forms of musikk downloading are illegal ), then why did you feel the need to come up with half-baked, illogical justifications for illegally downloading musikk?
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233681 - 05/29/05 02:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Interesting. You are very decidedly in favor of downloading intellectual property that does not belong to you, yet you're undecided on questions that can show you to contradict yourself.
Where did I say I was in favor of downloading music? I am merely trying to expose flaws in your argument.
Quote:
Again, this isn't fair. If you're going to participate in the debate, you should at least be willing to answer questions that paint your ethics into a corner, not just the convenient ones.
I am not debating my ethics. I'm debating your ethics, and some problems I see with them.
Quote:
Is your position so weak that it will not withstand scrutiny?
My position is that of skepticism. I remain unconvinced by either side in this debate.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
#4233695 - 05/29/05 02:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alright, this is the standard S&P non-answer because you're worried about being proven wrong through logic. I get it. Nevermind.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233697 - 05/29/05 02:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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What would I have been proven wrong about? I have not taken a position on the issue, except to say that intellectual property is a problematic concept.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233809 - 05/29/05 03:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you steal someone's garbage before they throw it away, it doesn't harm them, but it is still theft. Taking something from someone without their permission is theft regardless of the value of what you stole.
That just dodges the question
There is no loss, material or monetary, when a person downloads a digitally-copied audio/video file.
Can you provide another example of "theft" where there is no loss of money or material property?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4233841 - 05/29/05 03:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
But I feel certain laws are unjust and choose to break them.
If you believe your agreement with the owner of a creative work is unjust, then why do you agree by making the purchase? Nobody is twisting your arm.
I don't purchase music so there is no contract.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,679
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4233937 - 05/29/05 04:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"What a crock that is...people who create music deserve to be compensated for their work, living or dead."
You have a narrow minded view. The record industry does not represent the artists...it represents the media they produce. The recording industry has so many middlemen lining their pockets that it is obscene. The RIAAs agenda does not concern rewarding the artists. At the core their agenda is about big corporations force feeding you what they want you to listen to while fleecing your pockets. An artist's recordings should be public domain after death...hell after 5 years I think. Making so called musicians like Brittney Spears and Madonna rich is a miscarriage of justice. Remove the hype and let them stand on their own with those who love music instead of just the profits. Sadly your children will most likely live in a world where your rights are not even determined by governments, but by big mega-corporations like Microsoft, Walmart, and the movie and recording industries.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4234101 - 05/29/05 05:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"You have a narrow minded view."
This from someone who thinks musicians should have controlled incomes of 50 or 100k maximum and only make money from performing? And who thinks that after 5 years their recordings should be public domain? Your view seems a tad narrower than mine.
What about novelists? Is it OK to download their books from an illegal website? Would your "performing" criteria also apply to them so they can be paid? Do book signings at WaldenBooks constitute performing?
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 05:47 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,679
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4234141 - 05/29/05 05:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I never said controlled. I gave this as an example of profit a popular musician would expect without royalties from recordings...they should however have artistic say of how their recordings are used such as in commercials. Print and digital media should be held to different laws. Libraries have already made any book in print available to the public. Google is currently digitizing the 5 largest American libraries for public use...free by the way...on the internet. Let's see the recording industry be so generous. You obviously are a rich recording industry executive to be so insulting and aggressive about this issue (sarcasm for those who do not realize it). WHen you defend large faceless corporations you are asking for trouble. Does your obvious respect for the law extend to the drug laws?
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4234171 - 05/29/05 05:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Just because a book can be checked out (and returned) to the local library, just as CDs can be checked out (and returned) to the local library means nothing in terms of this debate.
Would you consider it unethical or illegal to download a new release movie or current bestseller off of a website?
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 06:07 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,679
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4234865 - 05/29/05 10:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I did not say that the CDs (or books) should be free. Putting the information into a material format is a valid service to perform. Remember I said only the information should be free. Movies I feel the same way about, as it is digital media, though publishing the movies straight to the web on release day would go a long way towards stemming the tide of what is percieved as movie piracy. Services like movielink just don't get it. Using copy protection is never going to work as copy protections will always be cracked by socially concious world citizens (hackers). To make money movies and music, both, are going to have to be provided at a reasonable fee with a wide choice of formats and media and in a timely manner. In the coming years companies that focus on protecting their intellectual property will perish while companies offering services will flower. The music and movie industries are no different. These services are going to have to provide users with ultimate conveniance and customization. As our society becomes increadingly more technical this is a necessity.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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KackleDude
transmundaneother
Registered: 06/11/02
Posts: 863
Loc: Close to the Edge, Down b...
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4235055 - 05/29/05 11:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Good topic.
I understand that my downloading of music is receiving something without paying for it, but I feel it's acceptable 'theft' for a few reasons. If I really need a solid copy or feel like supoprting the artist because they could use it, I go out & either buy the LP or CD if it's not available on vinyl. I spin records so I gain so much more enjoyment if I can toss a track on during a set, which is near-impossible as a dj (CD turntables & mp3 scratch sytems not considered).
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yeeeahh, it's gonna be well wicked
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KackleDude
transmundaneother
Registered: 06/11/02
Posts: 863
Loc: Close to the Edge, Down b...
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: KackleDude]
#4235332 - 05/30/05 01:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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oh yeah, and I don't care if people steal my music. if it's at the point where it's being distributed, then if someone doesn't want to give me their money for whatever reason, meh.
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yeeeahh, it's gonna be well wicked
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4235394 - 05/30/05 01:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The RIAA says it's theft.
I say music should be free anyway. I give my music out for free.
Plus, downloading music gets more fans in a wider audience. Besides, most recording artists make most of their money from touring, not albums. They get more fans from people downloading their music, which equals more people coming to their shows. And a lot of people will go out and buy the album if they like it just for the better quality and the cover art. People love that cover art.
So yeah. downloading music pwns.
It's a win/win situation. The only one's getting screwed in the deal is the recording industry.. so hah! But they are still banking anyway, so who cares. Not me.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Shroomism]
#4235669 - 05/30/05 03:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's interesting how those who claim the most enlightenment are also the ones who deftly rationalize unethical behavior.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4235759 - 05/30/05 03:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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who claimed the most enlightenment?
And what's unethical?
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4235940 - 05/30/05 07:14 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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the ones who deftly rationalize unethical behavior.
There is no universal set of ethics. What you find unethical I do not.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4235973 - 05/30/05 08:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's interesting how those who claim the most enlightenment are also the ones who deftly rationalize unethical behavior.
That's a value judgment on your part. Your values may or may not coincide with my values.
You still haven't answered my question, either
Can you provide an example of "theft" where there is no loss of money or material property? (other than file sharing, as that is the idea in contest)
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: trendal]
#4236015 - 05/30/05 08:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You still haven't answered my question, either
You asked the question, I gave you an answer (stealing garbage before it is thrown away), then you asked for another example. Why don't you address the given answer first before asking for another?
Taking someone's garbage without their permission before they've tossed it is theft; it doesn't matter that the garbage is worthless, you have no right to take it without permission.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
#4236025 - 05/30/05 08:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said:
Can you provide an example of "theft" where there is no loss of money or material property? (other than file sharing, as that is the idea in contest)
Garbage is a material property.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: trendal]
#4236084 - 05/30/05 09:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"theft" where there is no loss of money or material property
Stolen innocence.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
#4237680 - 05/30/05 06:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I wouldn't call that "theft"
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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