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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233370 - 05/29/05 02:50 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

This digital vs analog sound-discussion is as old, as the digital medias arose.
There is one relative simple experiment, which opened my mind:
You need a laser(pointer), two speakers and two tiny mirrors...
Fix the mirrors on the speakers, so that they can swing like the speakers-membrane. Then plug the speakers to each channel of some (hopefully analog) amplifier.
Fix the speakers so that the laser-beam hits both mirrors (the speakers must stand quite near together) and then some projection-space.
Now, if you are lucky, you have an analog synthesizer at hand, but analog sound-sources (old record/tapeplayer) will work, too.
See what happens with the laser-projection, if you put the analog sounds through the 'system'. It's quite astonishing ! It's like you can see 'into' the sound. Many patterns and with a analog-synth, you can play with the patterns.
My friends and I 'engineered' a quite long while for a 'perfect' beamer. At least, the projections covered a whole wall. They look much like mandalas, what is really a very great show !

And then, if you feed this 'sound-system' with digital sounds...you will see 'nothing'. Really ! There's only a 'dumb' and boring oval which moves a bit, whatever you will play through the system.

If you sometimes have 'seen' this difference between analog and digital sound/music, you will understand why analog music is way better (from the quality), then digital one (even the engineers try their best to analogize the digital form back again, but lots of information has gotten lost through digitalizing)


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233372 - 05/29/05 02:50 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

There is no definite answer I can give, because it's not as clear-cut as you would like to believe. Does copyright law prevent you from buying a cd and giving it away as a present? No. Have I made any sort of agreement with an artist by recieving such a gift? No. So if I upload that cd, I am not breaking any promise. Frankly, I have never heard of any copyright which prohibits the buyer from giving it away.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4233387 - 05/29/05 02:54 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

If you sometimes have 'seen' this difference between analog and digital sound/music, you will understand why analog music is way better

Analog may sound better, but it is a less faithfull reproduction of the original.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233393 - 05/29/05 02:55 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

There is no definite answer I can give, because it's not as clear-cut as you would like to believe.

Well, if you can't give a yes/no answer to a yes/no question, then the debate can't proceed. If everything is a maybe, then we can never get anywhere. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233398 - 05/29/05 02:57 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
There is no definite answer I can give, because it's not as clear-cut as you would like to believe.

Well, if you can't give a yes/no answer to a yes/no question, then the debate can't proceed. If everything is a maybe, then we'll never get anywhere. :shrug:



This is equivalent to saying that agnostics have no place in debates about God.  I am agnostic on this issue.  Take from that what you will.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Posts: 21,407
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233402 - 05/29/05 02:58 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"giving it away"

If you buy a CD for someone else, and give them the original, no problem.

If you buy a CD for yourself, and make 1000 copies for your various houses across the continents, no problem.

If you buy a CD for yourself, and make a copy for someone else, and don't charge them, that is copyright infringement on a minor scale.

If you buy a CD, make 1000 copies and sell them, that's copyright infringement that could be problematic for you.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Posts: 10,679
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233406 - 05/29/05 02:59 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Here is ethics. Information should be free. To charge someone for information that they need is unethical and I refuse to abide by these antiquated laws concerning so called intellectual property. If your neighbor needed some information would you extort money from him before you gave him the information? Digital media IS information plain and simple. It is ethical to charge for services such as doing actual work or teaching people to exploit the information that you make available for free. Do we not live in a community...although it is global it still should embrace the values of community and sharing. The Linux operating system and the associated software is proof that useful and entertaining digital media can be created by a community for use by the community free of charge. Musicians should be paid for their work, but let them be paid for their performance instead...in other words make them work. Recorded music can be used to promote their performances. This means they make less money. Don't feel sorry for these people. Our society makes them millionaire and puts them on a pedestal for no reason. Let the people who love music return to the stage and ditch all of these mass marketed hype driven money machines. 50,000 to 100,000 a year is acceptable for a musician who is popular...we don't need to make them filthy rich for such a small service. Music and art (like all professions) should be done for the love of the art and people.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Posts: 21,407
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4233438 - 05/29/05 03:08 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

So by your argument, any dead artist who is inherently unable to get paid by live performance, is therefore unable to provide for their children and widows?  :thumbdown:

What a crock that is...people who create music deserve to be compensated for their work, living or dead.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4233464 - 05/29/05 03:14 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
So by your argument, any dead artist who is inherently unable to get paid by live performance, is therefore unable to provide for their children and widows?  :thumbdown:



This is why we have a thing in our society called "savings."

Quote:

What a crock that is...people who create music deserve to be compensated for their work, living or dead.



Certainly.  That's what he just said.  Compensate them for their work(i.e. performances).


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233506 - 05/29/05 03:25 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"This is why we have a thing in our society called "savings"."

No, this is why we have a thing in our society called "royalty checks". People are entitled to be paid for their intellectual work, living or dead. This is true for music, literature, movies, etc. etc.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233527 - 05/29/05 03:34 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

This is equivalent to saying that agnostics have no place in debates about God. I am agnostic on this issue. Take from that what you will.

No, this is like saying that if you cannot answer yes/no (true/false) questions, then I cannot lead you to a logical conclusion about an ethical question.

I can ask an agnostic questions of the form "Is it right to do X?" and they will answer with a yes or no. I've asked you a similar question and you've refused to commit to an answer.

Take from that what YOU will.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4233537 - 05/29/05 03:37 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Here is ethics.

Alright, lemme try with you:

If I give you my music and you promise not to give it away, is it ethical that you do so anyway?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233544 - 05/29/05 03:41 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Here is ethics.

Alright, lemme try with you:

If I give you my music and you promise not to give it away, is it ethical that you do so anyway?



What makes it your music? Is all the information in it original?


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233558 - 05/29/05 03:48 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Does copyright law prevent you from buying a cd and giving it away as a present?  No.  Have I made any sort of agreement with an artist by recieving such a gift?  No.  So if I upload that cd, I am not breaking any promise.




It doesn't matter if you have made an "agreement" with the artist or not, the law still prohibits uploading the cd. Regardless of whether or not you were the one who initially bought the product, the simple fact that you have ownership of the property legally binds you to the conditions of what can and cannot be done with that property.

If I get pulled over by a cop by driving a vehicle on a public road without having went through the procedure to obtain a valid driver's license, I cannot claim that I am not subject to the speeding laws because I have not officially entered into an "agreement" with the state by obtaining a valid driver's license.

Also, having ownership does not equate into an absolute right to do whatever act with that property as one wishes. I cannot legally shoot some stranger in the face with a shotgun simply by legally owning the gun.

Quote:


Frankly, I have never heard of any copyright which prohibits the buyer from giving it away.




Obviously not, but I do not understand how this is relevant to the topic at hand. Receiving a cd as a gift, thereby having ownership of it transferred over to yourself, does not in any way waive you of the responsibility to fufill copyrights.

By the way, interesting side topic as well. :thumbup: :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Posts: 21,407
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233570 - 05/29/05 03:53 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Nice spin.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233571 - 05/29/05 03:53 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
What makes it your music?  Is all the information in it original?




In the exact manner in that it was expressed and copyrighted, yes, the information in it is original.

That stands regardless of what influences might have played a part in the formation, arrangement, and presentation of that information as long as that information does not illegally represent previously copyrighted information in the exact form in which it was copyrighted.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4233584 - 05/29/05 04:00 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

FG, good to see you are in full understanding and support of the copyright laws.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 04:15 PM)


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4233585 - 05/29/05 04:00 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

A laws existence does not equate to it's correctness.

I'm of the opinion that anything I wouldn't normally have bought I will download for free. I won't download video games because I would have normally paid for them so I think it's only fair to pay. But if I download Green Day's newest album I have no problem doing so because if I couldn't download it I wouldn't have bought it anyways. The artist and the recording industry isn't losing any money from me because I would never have bough the CD even if I couldn't get it for free.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
    #4233592 - 05/29/05 04:03 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
A laws existence does not equate to it's correctness.



Exactly. I'd expect drug users, of all people, to understand that legality does not equate to morality.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
    #4233601 - 05/29/05 04:06 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

A laws existence does not equate to it's correctness.

But your implicit agreement to comply with the wishes of the copyright holder when you purchase the music makes it unethical for you to break that agreement. If you don't like the agreement, don't agree by buying the music.

All I hear to counter this argument is that I do not have a right to determine what happens with my creation. Where do you get off deciding what rights I have over MY work?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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