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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233610 - 05/29/05 04:12 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
A laws existence does not equate to it's correctness.

But your implicit agreement to comply with the wishes of the copyright holder when you purchase the music makes it unethical for you to break that agreement. If you don't like the agreement, don't agree by buying the music.



I don't.  That's why I download it. :grin:


--------------------


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233613 - 05/29/05 04:12 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

But your implicit agreement to comply with the wishes of the copyright holder when you purchase the music makes it unethical for you to break that agreement.

Really? So is smoking marijuana or eating mushrooms unethical?

Just because something is illegal doesn't make it unethical.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Posts: 24,855
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4233624 - 05/29/05 04:16 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
It is ethical to charge for services such as doing actual work or teaching people to exploit the information that you make available for free.




Wouldn't "teaching people to exploit information that you offer for free" simply just be offering them more information in order to exploit that information? You say that it is ethical to actually perform work, and that it isn't ethical to charge for information, as it should be exchanged freely, but yet any act of conveying or making information available is work.


Quote:

Musicians should be paid for their work, but let them be paid for their performance instead...in other words make them work.




I fail to understand your reasoning here, in the sense that time, effort, work is put into the creation of recorded material that is then offered as a product for exchange. Perhaps you haven't went through take after take, constantly repeating the same solo in a struggle to get it exactly the way it needs to be in order to slide right into that groove and convey that just right feel of emotion, the whole while your drummer is whining like a bitch, your producer is offering suggestions that contradict what you feel needs to be done with your musikk, the temperature and humidity in the room is through the roof because you are purposely changing the atmosphere in order to get a Southern, swampy vibe in your guitar tone, and you are constantly thinking in the back of your head about how each minute is costing you dollars (that, apparently, you don't deserve to have anyways  :rolleyes: :lol: :lol:).... Sounds like work to me. Of course, if you are mentally registering all of this at once, you aren't going to even be able to play, anyways. :lol:

Quote:


Recorded music can be used to promote their performances. This means they make less money. Don't feel sorry for these people. Our society makes them millionaire and puts them on a pedestal for no reason.




Ja, musicians make tons of money that they don't need.  :rolleyes:

A lucky few might get enough publicity to pull in some millions, but I know of a lot of really good bands that I listen to that all have to work second jobs... I also do not see why you are entitled to the position of being able to judge who does and does not deserve how much money they need or don't need. :smirk:

Quote:


we don't need to make them filthy rich for such a small service. Music and art (like all professions) should be done for the love of the art and people.




The "size" of the service is defined by the participators in the exchange, who decide how much of what is being exchanged. If it happens that a musician is making $2 off of a cd sold for $18, then that is the nature of the exchange made. Your judgement of what the size of the exchange should/should not be is not relevant at all to the exchange unless you are one of the people participating in the exchange. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233627 - 05/29/05 04:17 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I don't. That's why I download it.

Buying, or receiving as a gift, known stolen merchandise is still unethical.

Also, you keep making this argument but you refuse to answer the questions that logically lead to a contradiction. This isn't fair. If you're going to participate in the debate, you should at least be willing to answer questions that paint your ethics into a corner.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
    #4233630 - 05/29/05 04:19 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Really? So is smoking marijuana or eating mushrooms unethical?

What does this have to do with the price of tea?

I'm not talking about what's legal. I'm talking about what's right.

When you buy the music, you make a promise to the guy who sold you the music. Breaking that promise is wrong; it also happens to be illegal.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233631 - 05/29/05 04:20 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Buying, or receiving as a gift, known stolen merchandise is still unethical.

There is no universal set of ethics. You may find it unethical while I don't. How many times am I going to have to repeat the following.


A laws existence does not equate to it's correctness.
Just because something is illegal doesn't make it unethical.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233632 - 05/29/05 04:20 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

But it's not stolen. The original copy is in the hands of its owner. Theft involves taking something from someone else and depriving them of their possession.

As for this question you keep alluding to, my answer is still a maybe. It depends on a numer of other factors, on which I am still undecided.


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
    #4233646 - 05/29/05 04:25 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
A laws existence does not equate to it's correctness.




Regardless, that fact doesn't equate into your freedom from that law if you happen to be underneath that law's jurisdiction. :lol:

Quote:


I'm of the opinion that anything I wouldn't normally have bought I will download for free ..... But if I download Green Day's newest album I have no problem doing so because if I couldn't download it I wouldn't have bought it anyways. The artist and the recording industry isn't losing any money from me because I would never have bough the CD even if I couldn't get it for free.




Prefabricated, adopted, cookie cutter excuse #34. :smirk:

Seriously, man, that doesn't even make sense, "your" "logic" is severely flawed. "I wouldn't have bought the digital camera from Wal*Mart anyways, so, since I would have never bought it, it doesn't matter if I shoplift it because they wouldn't have made the money from my purchasing the digital camera anyways.  :rolleyes: :lol:

The musikk you downloaded is an illegal representation of a product whose rights belong to someone else the moment you download it without entering an official exchange for that product. No amount of "well, I wouldn't have bought it anyways" and similar no-thinking will bypass this.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4233654 - 05/29/05 04:30 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Regardless, that fact doesn't equate into your freedom from that law if you happen to be underneath that law's jurisdiction.

Of course "it" remains illegal. But I feel certain laws are unjust and choose to break them.

The musikk you downloaded is an illegal representation of a product whose rights belong to someone else the moment you download it without entering an official exchange for that product. No amount of "well, I wouldn't have bought it anyways" and similar no-thinking will bypass this.

What point are you trying to make? That downloading music is illegal? We all know that. Are you trying to say it is inherently unethical? Well then you're wrong.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233660 - 05/29/05 04:33 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

As for this question you keep alluding to, my answer is still a maybe. It depends on a numer of other factors, on which I am still undecided.

Interesting. You are very decidedly in favor of downloading intellectual property that does not belong to you, yet you're undecided on questions that can show you to contradict yourself.

Again, this isn't fair. If you're going to participate in the debate, you should at least be willing to answer questions that paint your ethics into a corner, not just the convenient ones.

Is your position so weak that it will not withstand scrutiny?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (05/29/05 04:38 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
    #4233665 - 05/29/05 04:34 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

But I feel certain laws are unjust and choose to break them.

If you believe your agreement with the owner of a creative work is unjust, then why do you agree by making the purchase? Nobody is twisting your arm.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: newuser1492]
    #4233670 - 05/29/05 04:37 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
What point are you trying to make? That downloading music is illegal? We all know that. Are you trying to say it is inherently unethical? Well then you're wrong.




Well, I'm glad to know that I am "wrong" if I am trying to say a certain something, but the fact is that I am not saying it, so it doesn't apply, and also that it seems ironic that, for someone who is proposing there is no inherent ethics, you would use a label such as "wrong". :lol:

If "we all know that" downloading musikk is illegal (obviously, not all forms of musikk downloading are illegal :smirk:), then why did you feel the need to come up with half-baked, illogical justifications for illegally downloading musikk? :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233681 - 05/29/05 04:42 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Interesting. You are very decidedly in favor of downloading intellectual property that does not belong to you, yet you're undecided on questions that can show you to contradict yourself.



Where did I say I was in favor of downloading music? I am merely trying to expose flaws in your argument.

Quote:

Again, this isn't fair. If you're going to participate in the debate, you should at least be willing to answer questions that paint your ethics into a corner, not just the convenient ones.



I am not debating my ethics. I'm debating your ethics, and some problems I see with them.

Quote:

Is your position so weak that it will not withstand scrutiny?



My position is that of skepticism. I remain unconvinced by either side in this debate.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Silversoul]
    #4233695 - 05/29/05 04:46 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Alright, this is the standard S&P non-answer because you're worried about being proven wrong through logic. I get it. Nevermind.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233697 - 05/29/05 04:47 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

What would I have been proven wrong about? I have not taken a position on the issue, except to say that intellectual property is a problematic concept.


--------------------


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,793
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233809 - 05/29/05 05:34 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

If you steal someone's garbage before they throw it away, it doesn't harm them, but it is still theft. Taking something from someone without their permission is theft regardless of the value of what you stole.

That just dodges the question :smirk:

There is no loss, material or monetary, when a person downloads a digitally-copied audio/video file.

Can you provide another example of "theft" where there is no loss of money or material property?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Diploid]
    #4233841 - 05/29/05 05:43 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
But I feel certain laws are unjust and choose to break them.

If you believe your agreement with the owner of a creative work is unjust, then why do you agree by making the purchase? Nobody is twisting your arm.




I don't purchase music so there is no contract.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4233937 - 05/29/05 06:28 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"What a crock that is...people who create music deserve to be compensated for their work, living or dead."

You have a narrow minded view. The record industry does not represent the artists...it represents the media they produce. The recording industry has so many middlemen lining their pockets that it is obscene. The RIAAs agenda does not concern rewarding the artists. At the core their agenda is about big corporations force feeding you what they want you to listen to while fleecing your pockets. An artist's recordings should be public domain after death...hell after 5 years I think. Making so called musicians like Brittney Spears and Madonna rich is a miscarriage of justice. Remove the hype and let them stand on their own with those who love music instead of just the profits. Sadly your children will most likely live in a world where your rights are not even determined by governments, but by big mega-corporations like Microsoft, Walmart, and the movie and recording industries.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ā€• Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4234101 - 05/29/05 07:35 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"You have a narrow minded view."

This from someone who thinks musicians should have controlled incomes of 50 or 100k maximum and only make money from performing? And who thinks that after 5 years their recordings should be public domain? Your view seems a tad narrower than mine.

What about novelists? Is it OK to download their books from an illegal website? Would your "performing" criteria also apply to them so they can be paid? Do book signings at WaldenBooks constitute performing?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (05/29/05 07:47 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics And Downloading Music [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4234141 - 05/29/05 07:47 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I never said controlled. I gave this as an example of profit a popular musician would expect without royalties from recordings...they should however have artistic say of how their recordings are used such as in commercials. Print and digital media should be held to different laws. Libraries have already made any book in print available to the public. Google is currently digitizing the 5 largest American libraries for public use...free by the way...on the internet. Let's see the recording industry be so generous. You obviously are a rich recording industry executive to be so insulting and aggressive about this issue (sarcasm for those who do not realize it). WHen you defend large faceless corporations you are asking for trouble. Does your obvious respect for the law extend to the drug laws?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ā€• Carlos Castaneda


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