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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395738 -

I see where you are going now... I wasn't so sure in your first post.  I am going to have to concur.  :smile:

My worldview is one where spiritual essence is derived passivly from nature, even the day to day "grind".  I believe in nothing supernatural but I consider myself a very spiritual person.  All of the tenets or philosphy I believe in are pretty much "set", none which must withstand scrutiny because of their nature, so I no longer struggle for understanding or meaning, although I still enjoy philosophy for inspiration and an intellectual exercise.

Why are some like me,  some monks, and some others have never considered religion?  Perhaps there is some correlation with intellegence, upbringing, etc.. regardless, I would consider a genetic basis, especially considering some recent findings

Along the lines of your dog....Hue, you happen to be familiar with  Jane's Addiction? Frontman Perry Farrell wrote a song they play titled "Pigs In Zen"  Apparently, he was in a band with hindu musicians with a lot of potential and creative talent.  They abstained from sex, drugs, meat and just about anything fun until Perry watched their talent and potential wither away because of their endless quest for Nirvana.  He penned the song with the notion that... aren't pigs in Zen?  They live the complete opposite lifestyles of the hindus, and are already there? :thumbup:


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche


Edited by oceansize (11/22/04 09:04 PM)

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: oceansize]
    #3395797 -

You understood me completely. I too believe that our spiritual essence is derived from nature. All of the creatures of this Earth participate in the cycle of life and death without giving it a second thought...so why should we not do this as well. Our rational mind only seems to confuse us...sometimes into believing ridiculous things. Why worry about an afterlife when we are here at this time on Earth.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395828 -

In the last 48 hours I feel as if I have reached some sort of mental plateau. Many of my previous modes of thought (shamanism...nature based spirituality) have worked themselves to their ultimate conclusions...which seem to be saying to dispense with the dogma altogether and cut it all down to the core...being one with life and nature thoughtlessly...


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395834 -

It hit me one day with what one might call a satori experience. I was on opiates following minor surgery, incapacitated so I would sit in the sun and read books all day, when staring at the gardens it hit me...

Why can't being molecules be enough? why need to bring souls, philosophy, afterlives, religion into it? In fact, if your essence extends no further than the molecules that make you up, isn't that the most noble fate that could come, to merge in full and be recycled, with all of existence?


I've never really worried about it after that. I haven't fully held that state of mind again, but regardless of what substances I was on, I know it is possible for a human to fully understand, and I could return there if I ever fell the need.

Does that make sense at all?


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche


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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: oceansize]
    #3395857 -

Right now that makes total sense as that is what I am thinking anyway. Our spiritual makeup goes deeper than any can grasp. To be one with creation seems to indicate one's willingness to surrender to it and become part of it...total integration.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395889 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Right now that makes total sense as that is what I am thinking anyway. Our spiritual makeup goes deeper than any can grasp. To be one with creation seems to indicate one's willingness to surrender to it and become part of it...total integration.


that's totally awesome! now can we live in through this idea is the kicker  :thumbup:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395931 -

On my fortieth birthday a couple of months back I became aware that, at best, I was halfway through. I did not feel fear, just a profound sadness at the idea of not existing. My previous comforts of an afterlfe started to ring hollow. For the last 3 months I have worried about this stupid shit. It was only yesterday morning that I felt that I was seeing the end of my spiritual path. My interest in shamanism and nature has been leading me to this clearing in the forest for many years. I now feel resolved. It is ironic to think that my ultimate conclusion to shamanic thought is to dispense with everything I thought I knew and simply embrace the infinite...no not embrace it...more properly...explode into it.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: kaiowas]
    #3395972 -

I guess that depends on the individual. For me this seems to be the answer, I know, for in the last two days my thinking has become unusually clear and I feel settled for the first time in months.

"look at the signs
look at the symptoms
look at the slight
calm before the storm
I feel the silence
I feel the signals
I feel the strain
tension in my head
well, what more can be said...
not a model man
not a saviour or a saint
imperfect in a word
make no mistake"

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3396017 -

It is interesting to consider where a conclusion like this comes from in life.

In my case, I am not yet twenty.  I renounced belief in god around age 9, not through any traumatic events, ah i can't quite explain it becase I'm not completely sure what goes through a prepubescent's head.

I spent the last... maybe eight years with philosophy and theology as primary drives in my mind,  especially catalyzed by onset of Bipolar disorder early in the teens.  I wouldn't say the rest of my life suffered, at least what I consider important, but for example, I nearly failed every grade between 7th and 12th despite breaking 1500 on the SAT.  My conclusions came a few years ago as perhaps a culmination of these early years of thought, and I consider myself a happy, healthy person for the most part. 

I wish I could be an objective observer and determine how valid my conclusions come compared to the same coming to someone with twice my age and life experience  :thumbup:


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche


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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: oceansize]
    #3396038 -

I haven't renounced God...I just feel that the idea is irrelevant...there is a time and a place to consider it...but that time and place is not here and now...remind me AFTER I am dead and I'll consider it. Anyway, now that this is settled for me it is time to play some Half Life 2.

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3396076 -

Ah i should correct that- a lot has changed over the years, I wouldn't consider myself as having renounced god, just the concept isn't an important one, or isn't quite relevant. wait... that is what you just
hmm
well, nevermind


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche


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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3396359 -

Hue,

The first thing you said on this board that caught my attention, many moons ago was this in reply to another, "Breaking out????I'm trying to break in!" I fell a part in my chair. Someone else out there was doing it too.

I can't fully elucidate all of the phases, but lashing out at spirituality is one of them and it happens often. I agree, i think there is a time upon an awakening of sorts we do use it as a healing tool, same as one would use a crutch while a broken bone is mending.

Once mended back together, you can throw the crutch away. I think the difference with breaking in is that, once mended, defining what is spiritual and what is not becomes impossible because you can see it in everything. Like the broken bone being split in two, once the duality split is mended, you can't help but live in harmony with life as it is.

Don't forget, elders or youngins who seem to live that way without having to have gone through any sort of spiritual healing, probably did before this life. They are way showers for the potential of what living in grace and harmony is and can be.

To better explain breaking in, in this sense, it's as if some people live in the "real world" and then also have a separate spiritual life a part from it. The breaking in is the process of breaking spirit into the 'real world" where the two become one. Some people think there is the physical body and life and the spiritual body and life as if they are two separate things. Breaking in makes them ONE with each other.

I'm still breaking in myself, made tons of progress in the last month.

It's wierd, for years you spend your time letting go of the physical crutches and reality, and then hit the reverse spin and start letting go of the spiritual crutches and altered realities.

It all begins to blend in the blur and cohese into one! I'm still at it.

To not offend others, the way I see your post title is more like crutches are not for the weak, crutches are for those healing and mending what is broken a part within them.

Perhaps you were seeing people who have adopted the crutch as a permenant third leg, in replacement of healing the broken. Is it that they are weak, lazy, fearful, or just feeling uneasy looking for something stable? 

Perhaps you were reffering to people who give their power away to sprituality and religion as if it will take care of everything somehow instead of their becoming empowered spiritual beings in form on their own and taking care of life themselves as it suits them, not some God, demi god or guri.

That will perpetuate ones sense of weakness etc, I think it results from separation fear, and not being worthy fears. It's like someone saying, "on my own, I'm crap, but, if I attach myself to this religion or spiritual philosophy, then I am more by asscociation.

I could come at this from a ton of angles. All in all, a thought provoking post.  :thumbup:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3396393 -

"If I may put it in a way which is horribly cumbersome and inadequate, that fleeting glimpse is the perception that, suddenly, some very ordinary moment of your ordinary everyday life, lived by your very ordinary self, just as it is and just as you are-that this immediate here-and-now is perfect and self-sufficient beyond any possibility of description. You know that there is nothing to desire or seek for-that no techniques, no spiritual apparatus of belief or discipline is necessary, no system of philosophy or religion. The goal is here. It is this present experience, just as it is. That, obviously, is what the finger was pointing at. But the next moment, as you look again, it is gone, though the finger still points right at it.

However, this irritatingly elusive quality of the vision to which the finger points has an extremely simple explanation, an explanation which has to do with what I said at the beginning about getting rid of the raft when you have crossed the river, about taking religion as a medicine but not as a diet. For purposes of understanding the point, we must take the raft as representing the ideas or words or other symbols whereby a religion or a philosophy expresses itself, whereby it points at the moon of reality. As soon as you have understood the words in their plain and straightforward sense, you have already used the raft. You have reached the opposite bank of the river. All that remains now is to do what the words say-to drop the raft and go walking on the dry land. And to do this, you MUST drop the raft.

In other words, you cannot, at this stage, think about religion and practice it at the same time. To see the moon, you must forget the pointing finger, and simply look at the moon."

Edited by Insomniac (11/23/04 01:17 AM)

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Insomniac]
    #3396431 -

I say, learn how to swim and fly and you won't be bothering with rafts and crutches.

People like the ones hue described, can be in the deep end and rough stormy waves and and not drown. Ask yourselves why and how?

They can be ladden with the weights of the world while soaring high and free in spirit, knowing, everythings gonna be all right, because where there is a will there is a way and they use their will-power to make it through. Again, ask yourselves why and how they do it.

You all know people like this..........study them.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3396565 -

I was immediately struck when I saw you assaulting philosophy in your title as a crutch for the weak. I think it is the strongest who persue matters of philosophy.

Lately I have been wondering why normal people aren't interested in thinking critically about the world around them, aren't interested in knowing the truth, and aren't interested in making the world a better place. Most people are completely content with just living the life that has been set before them by mainstream society. I have begun to almost feel contempt for these people, because it is a result of their history of inaction that I must live in a world that is far worse than it could potentially be.

As a related point to this, I very much think that Religion is a crutch for the weak, and a hindrance to humanity. Religious people are living in what is essentially a fantasy world. How can one rationally philosophize about the world when your philosophy cannot reach beyond the bible (or other religious doctrine/text)?.

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3397172 -

I understand the here-and-nowness that dogs experience, and attuning oneself to it becomes one of the primary purposes of pet-therapy. However, Canines and Humans go back a very long way together, sociobiologically speaking, and I might say karmically as well. We have a unique symbiosis going on, we Humans and Canines - very different from squirrels and deer.

I was going to say that dogs were lacking in the cognitive department, but then I thought back to the representational intelligence that my late dog Ben demonstrated. I was so stunned by it that I began to imagine incarnate human intelligence in the Dachshund (an interesting story). I think it interesting that Dog is God reversed, and that dogs are demonized and used as insulting epithets, not to mention 'acceptable' epithets among the hip-hop generation ('Wuz up dawg?,' 'Yo, bi[a]tch!').

I was not thinking about a "domineering master,' but in terms of a spiritual Master who leads, not pushes. I cannot be my own Master, 'I,' Mark[os], the 'Ego, is but a servant to the 'Self' which I identify as Christ or 'The Inner Man.' I do not always obey the promptings because I am unconscious (stupid, rebellious, unattuned), but I KNOW Who the Master is. In the Great Chain of Being, we Humans can, as I suggested, be good Masters to our Canine companions who might also be developing spiritually.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3397928 -

We need to understand the context we're speaking in. Very often, mystically inclined people find it difficult to identify themselves with their surrounding culture, and as a result they develop social ineptitudes. These are seen as weaknesses, often by the individual as well. The reason for this has to do with how our culture on the whole is not very mystically inclined. In fact, the culture that we are asked to assimilate every day is almost anti-mystical, anti-philosophical, and anti-spiritual in it's rampant materialism.

So there is a natural dissonance between people born with an inclination toward mystical thought and the culture that surrounds them. It's not necessary to ascribe weakness to the individual for this reason, or to use the word "crutch".

At the same time, though, there are many unfortunate people in the world, and in their confusion and strife they sometimes turn to religion in hopes that they will find stability in an externally imposed ethical structure. Sometimes, people turn to existentialism and philosophy in an effort to distract themselves from their problems. It's a samsaric effort not unlike all others in our topsy-turvy world, and I see no reason to set it apart from other forms of problematic behavior.

When I asked him a similar question, a monk I once knew said "Better that people turn to Buddha for the wrong reasons than to the perils of worldly pleasure." His attitude was very dismissive, and his reasoning was very clear: why point it out? People will find their way.


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

Edited by Ped (11/23/04 11:18 AM)

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3399188 -

Keep in mind that my post title was purposefully provocative to draw attention to it. This is something writers should strive to do and I like to write. I was not rejecting spirituality, but I feel that I was approaching (and have now passed) a crossroads in my life. I feel that the path I have followed was correct, but I was tired of running in place...I needed to move forward. For the last many months I have felt my beliefs becoming a crutch. It was time for my paradigm to advance. Maybe I am imagining things, but it seems that the whole of my life has been leading up to the last few days(well, it has in a way, but I mean in terms of my thinking). Have you ever had a sudden realization that left you no choice as what to think?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3399208 -

Don't you feel that encumbering yourself with the the whole of this mythology is limiting? Why not burrow to the center and slough off the outer shell. Don't take this as an attack...just a question. Religious tolerance is a value I hold dear.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Ped]
    #3399224 -

"It's not necessary to ascribe weakness to the individual for this reason, or to use the word "crutch"."

I was being facetious...and fishing for a response...and asking a serious question....

"mystically inclined people find it difficult to identify themselves with their surrounding culture, and as a result they develop social ineptitudes"

I don't know if I am truly mystically inclined, but social ineptitude is the story of my life.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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