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Re: Kerry is going to destroy Bush in the debates. [Re: Signo]
    #3034818 -

I would NOT underestimate Bush. People underestimated him in 2000. This will not happen again. Bush is a power to be reckoned with.

Deep, Kerry denounced the moveon.org's commercial critisizing bushs military service after he talked the john mccain.

Kerry isn't denouncing michael moore because that is entirely different. His movie is something people willingly go out and pay money to see for entertainment. Not commercials by non-profit organisations claiming not to be partisan like Swift Boat Vets for Bush.

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Re: Kerry is going to destroy Bush in the debates. [Re: Worf]
    #3035139 -

outputrotation said:
Deep, Kerry denounced the moveon.org's commercial critisizing bushs military service after he talked the john mccain.



Yes this is true. Likewise Bush also, to the same effect, denounced groups that question Kerry's record. I think both sides are about the same with regards to the military service issue, they lightly denounce groups targeting the other cantidate, while loudly complaining about the negative ads that target them.

However, it is also true that millions have been spent by anti-Bush 527s, and Kerry has not denounced all but two of them. Compare that to the controversy over Bush's one 527 and it seems like a pretty big double standard. Michael Moore aside, with all the anti-Bush ads out there Kerry getting his feathers ruffled over two that target him is a little silly. Even more amusing is that he rejects Bush's dissavowel of the Swift Boat Vets, while makes an equally weak effort with moveon.org.

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Re: Kerry is going to destroy Bush in the debates. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3035166 -

Divided_Sky said:
outputrotation said:
Deep, Kerry denounced the moveon.org's commercial critisizing bushs military service after he talked the john mccain.



Yes this is true. Likewise Bush also, to the same effect, denounced groups that question Kerry's record. I think both sides are about the same with regards to the military service issue, they lightly denounce groups targeting the other cantidate, while loudly complaining about the negative ads that target them.

However, it is also true that millions have been spent by anti-Bush 527s, and Kerry has not denounced all but two of them. Compare that to the controversy over Bush's one 527 and it seems like a pretty big double standard. Michael Moore aside, with all the anti-Bush ads out there Kerry getting his feathers ruffled over two that target him is a little silly. Even more amusing is that he rejects Bush's dissavowel of the Swift Boat Vets, while makes an equally weak effort with moveon.org.


The main problem is the swiftboat veterans are flat out lying in almost everything they say. Not slanting, not skewing, not taking out of context, not trying to confuse the situation. They are flat out lying. NONE of them served with JK on his boat, and only a couple were even THERE of the main day in contention (when kerry got his bronze medal).

The main reasons the sbvft hate kerry are because after the war (which he volunteered for) he came back and protested the war and also because they're being PAID to say these things by serious republican money. Bush even knows several of them personally. In any case, it's just bull shit mudslinging just like what happened to Mccain. The bush admin fights dirty and avoids any legitimate issues in their campaigning. The spoon-fed media makes it worse too, especially certain right-wing sycophant outlets *cough* faux news *cough*.

If I was Kerry, I'd be pissed too if my opponent paid some people to lie about something that happened 30 years ago and it was plastered all over the headlines by gloryhound hack journalists.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...

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Re: Kerry is going to destroy Bush in the debates. [Re: Signo]
    #3035237 -

Kerry hasn't refuted a single one of their claims, he just calls them liars and ignores the issue. So far they actually got him to admit that he never did spend Christmas in Cambodia. That ought to bring up a few red flags. It makes me wonder if they are telling the truth.

Here are the facts: Swift Boat Vets have 60 guys in Kerry's unit, including superiors, bunkmates etc. who all claim he is lying, though few were on his boat. However, that does not mean they are not in a position to contradict him.

I don't believe the Swift Boat Vets are out there because Bush paid them. O'Neil has had a bone to pick with Kerry since the 70s for claiming their unit was commiting war crimes. I think he has a right to set the record straight.

Kerry has 9 guys who were all on his boat, if only for a short amount of time.

So who do you believe?

I do not buy the argument that Bush is putting vets up to lie about Kerry. I'm sure Kerry believes that, and that is the very reason I won't vote for him; he is living in his own little world.

The Swift Boat Vets might be lying, but that is an awful lot of people to all be lying about Kerry. I don't think Kerry's guys are lying either so it has hard to say what really happened.

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Re: Kerry is going to destroy Bush in the debates. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3035278 -

Divided_Sky said:
Kerry hasn't refuted a single one of their claims, he just calls them liars and ignores the issue. So far they actually got him to admit that he never did spend Christmas in Cambodia. That ought to bring up a few red flags. It makes me wonder if they are telling the truth.

Here are the facts: Swift Boat Vets have 60 guys in Kerry's unit, including superiors, bunkmates etc. who all claim he is lying, though few were on his boat. However, that does not mean they are not in a position to contradict him.

I don't believe the Swift Boat Vets are out there because Bush paid them. O'Neil has had a bone to pick with Kerry since the 70s for claiming their unit was commiting war crimes. I think he has a right to set the record straight.

Kerry has 9 guys who were all on his boat, if only for a short amount of time.

So who do you believe?

I do not buy the argument that Bush is putting vets up to lie about Kerry. I'm sure Kerry believes that, and that is the very reason I won't vote for him; he is living in his own little world.

The Swift Boat Vets might be lying, but that is an awful lot of people to all be lying about Kerry. I don't think Kerry's guys are lying either so it has hard to say what really happened.


9 guys who were ALL *right* there on the boat and they all back kerry up. Or a bunch of bitter right-wing war vets getting a lot of money and exposure by saying kerry didn't earn his bronze star. Pretty lame if you ask me. Honestly unless there is any real evidence or proof, I'm happy to accept the word of the guy who's life kerry saved.

I just don't get how the draft-dodging bush can even justify attacking kerry's war record. Or McCain's a few years back. Or his other opponents, it's one of Bush's favorite campaign "tactics", to question the opponents military service as if his was so great (or even happened).


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...

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Re: Kerry is going to destroy Bush in the debates. [Re: unbeliever]
    #3035328 -

"The main problem is the swiftboat veterans are flat out lying in almost everything they say. Not slanting, not skewing, not taking out of context, not trying to confuse the situation. They are flat out lying. NONE of them served with JK on his boat, and only a couple were even THERE of the main day in contention (when kerry got his bronze medal). "

You DO know that those swift boats travel in GROUPS, right?

You know, a bunch together.

those guys?  On the other boats.

By the way, two of Kerry's purple hearts?  Self-inflicted.  Undershot a grenade launcher and hurt himself, that's a purple heart, dropped a grenade into a rice bin and held on to it too long, rice in the ass, that's two. 

The only guy who's really supported Kerry's claims of fire from the bank when he pulled that guy.. rassmann?  from the water... was the guy that was bobbing in the water.  And, obviously the other boats would have immediately opened fire on both sides of the river as soon as that boat had hit a mine.  'course Kerry's boat took the hell off immediately..  which is the perfect thing to do when a boat was hit by a mine, rush off a breakneck speed.

Those videos of him in the jungle?

He staged them and had someone else shoot them on an 8mm camera he bought and brought with him.

Why the hell would you want a video of what looks like you sneaking through the jungle? 


Kerry cannot win a debate.  Simply stating "I completely disagree with you!  I would do things MUCH better!" may win votes, because hey..  people are fuckin stupid yanno?  but in a debate, unless it really is just the farce it probably is, that argument is worse than worthless.


By the by has anyone caught Kerry's comments about hunting.. yes apparently he stalks up to deer on his stomach..  yes yes, this, dear people, is a man who has been hunting, you know, in those things, what are they called, trees?  :crazy2:  That ranks up there with Al Gore getting lost in the woods outside DC as the all-time greatest democrat self-inflicted wounds.

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Re: Kerry is going to destroy Bush in the debates. [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3035436 -

shit...you've heard or played the game "Telephone" right...well imagine a game that's several decades long. Who know's what the hell the truth is. And why is this an election issue...WTF!!...



For 5 free Bush Devil/Bush Alfred E. Newman 2"x3" sticker...PM me with your addy...then stick them up in your town!


--------------------
GooeyGraphix
Wasting June
The Missing Robot

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Re: Kerry is going to destroy Bush in the debates. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3035507 -

Quote:
I for one do not think Kerry will beat Bush in the debates. For one Bush is often portrayed in caricatures that make him seem much less intelligent than he actually is. Having actually heard some of his campaign speechs in their entirety (and not just little sound bites of Bush fumbling with a words) I think he will do much better than most expect him to.

As for Kerry "Yeah, well I would do that...except better!" won't be the most effective debating strategy. Kerry does not provide any specifics our propose any serious policy, rather he bases all of his statements as binary oposition to Bush, whether there is any sense to them or not, or whether he contradict himself. He can't say why Bush's policy is wrong, or why his would be a good idea, he just attacks Bush and ignores the issue. Kerry's self-contradictions such as with Bush's troop withdrawl will also weaken his position.
As for those ads, once again I Kerry is being ridiculous. Calling the Swift Boat veterans some secret front for the Bush campaign is preposterous considering HUGE amounts of soft money by similar groups against Bush. If Kerry can say the Swift Boat Vets are part of the Bush campaign then GEorge Soros, Moveon.org, the Media Fund, Michael Moore, etc. are all fronts for Kerry and he is being a hypocrit. Again. It's just like right after the Democratic Convention when Edwards and Kerry criticized Bush for negative adds they went on a blitz of negative ads and attacks. Once again, total hypocrisy.


I think he just may beat Bush in a debate. As you say, Bush is portrayed as a dumbass by his opponents. He'll be well prepped for a debate, however. I think he will stick to his script and avoid wading into an argument he's not prepared for. Kerry will press on the main issues, the war, foreign policy, etc, but if he's a clever tactician he'll attack with an unforseen topic - like maybe the destruction of the environment (yeah it's not new, but it'd be something that Mr. Bush might not be expecting to have to debate in any great detail, what with all the other hot topics going 'round). If he can push the bush into muddy waters, Kerry will win the verbal debate.

I don't like either one though.


--------------------
2004: The year telemarketing started to shrivel up like a cold pair of nuts.

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Re: Kerry is going to destroy Bush in the debates. [Re: MilkyMedia]
    #3035857 -

MilkyMedia said:
shit...you've heard or played the game "Telephone" right...well imagine a game that's several decades long. Who know's what the hell the truth is. And why is this an election issue...WTF!!...



These are the people who served in vietnam with JFK, its not like telephone at all. And the only reason it is an election issue is because JFK made it such a big issue in his campaign. It is the only real thing he uses to distinguish himself.

And nice post mushmonkey  :thumbup:


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: Kerry is going to destroy Bush in the debates. [Re: Signo]
    #3036091 -

pushing aside the specific issue of vietnam...i think bush will destroy kerry in the debate in two ways ..1) style always matters more than substance..and its easy to imagine bushs' bellicose ranting overwhelming kerrys' accurate but non-exciting answers.. 2) kerry has foolishly painted himself into a corner on iraq and other "national security" issues..where even a chimpanzee could catch him...

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