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InvisibleYidakiMan
Stranger
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Registered: 09/29/02
Posts: 2,023
Re: Libertarians: Kerry or Bush? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #2653340 - 05/08/04 02:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

That is the attitude that keeps the power that be.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Libertarians: Kerry or Bush? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2653390 - 05/08/04 02:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I will pretty much vote for lower taxes every time.



Higher government spending (an enormous increase under George W. Bush) will always be paid for either with higher taxes (the more up-front, honest means) or through the inflating the money supply (what we put counterfeiters in jail for) . Monetization to cover government debt IS a form of taxation. How will government debt be paid off? What is the difference if government takes an extra 10% of your wealth by direct taxation vs. taking an extra 10% of your wealth by inflating the money supply? ALL government spending/debt will be covered by expropriating your wealth by one means or another (unless the govenment actually sells something at a profit).


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
Re: Libertarians: Kerry or Bush? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2653715 - 05/08/04 04:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

To MetaShroom; I will vote towards those things to the extent that I think they are in my interest or that the position I am voting for makes a difference. Global peace??? Never has been, never will be. Who will protect me and mine are my interests. The environment??? I don't see anyone advocating any policies that will actually matter.

To Evolving; I am quite convinced that Kerry will increase government spending far more than Bush will in his second term.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Libertarians: Kerry or Bush? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2653734 - 05/08/04 04:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

To Evolving; I am quite convinced that Kerry will increase government spending far more than Bush will in his second term.



Even if he tries to, he'll have to face a Republican congress which will be more opposed to his spending increases than they will Bush's. This is the advantage of having one party in the White House and another in the Congress.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Libertarians: Kerry or Bush? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2653811 - 05/08/04 04:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I used to believe that a divided government was a good idea too but I have become so totally disgusted with the Democrats that I don't want them to have power over anything. I'm speaking strictly of national politics here. On local levels I'm sure there might be some good, honest people who are Democrats.


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Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Libertarians: Kerry or Bush? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2653830 - 05/08/04 05:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I am quite convinced that Kerry will increase government spending far more than Bush will in his second term.






http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2004_0408a.html

(emphasis mine)
Quote:


Kerry Targets Budget Deficit
New Proposals Echo Clinton

April 08, 2004

Washington Post

Jim VandeHei and Jonathan Weisman


Sen. John F. Kerry outlined a broad deficit-reduction policy yesterday, scaling back several campaign promises that he now concedes the country cannot afford if his new budget goals are to be met.

In his second major policy address of the general election campaign, the Massachusetts Democrat harked back to the fiscal and political policies of President Bill Clinton, sacrificing social spending to the goal of reducing the budget deficit by half in five years and eventually eliminating it by raising taxes on the rich and restraining government spending.

Kerry pulled back on promises made during the Democratic primary crunch to immediately make preschool universal and cover the cost of college for students who provide national services, such as volunteering. Both programs would cover fewer people than originally billed. Sarah Bianchi, the campaign's policy director, said Kerry is also cutting in half a proposal to send $50 billion to cash-strapped states. The Democratic candidate has been under relentless attack by the Bush campaign as a big spender.

"Those are hard calls a president has to make," Kerry told students at Georgetown University.

While much of the nation is focused on death tolls and chaos in Iraq, Kerry is picking a political fight with President Bush over budget deficits, health care costs, tax cuts and spending, all of which have ballooned over the past three years.

"George Bush stubbornly refuses to change course," Kerry said. "When false promises don't work, he tries excuses. Blaming everyone from Bill Clinton to Ken Lay to Saddam Hussein."

Kerry's speech echoed widespread criticism of Bush's fiscal policies that contributed to the largest fiscal swing in the nation's history: the record budget surplus of $236 billion in 2000 has turned into a record deficit that could reach $500 billion this year.

"This is not going to be easy," Kerry said. "It will require tough decisions, not just for one budget, not just for one campaign, but tough for years to come and often in the face of unforeseen circumstances."

Yet Kerry avoided some of the most difficult choices in his budget framework. For instance, it does not spell out ways to cut or contain costs of entitlement programs, such as Medicare and Social Security, which together eat up nearly one-third of the federal budget. Nor does it account for how Kerry, as president, would pay for many other programs, such as those for veterans, that could prove expensive over the next decade.

Gene Sperling, a Kerry economic adviser, said Kerry would spend as much as Bush on national defense and slightly more on homeland security. In his speech, Kerry said he would fill in the blanks later in the campaign and "state, in specific terms, how to finance them without raising the deficit or middle-class taxes."

If he cannot make his programs fit into a balanced budget, Kerry said he will slow or shrink them.

The presumptive Democratic nominee vowed to pay for all future tax cuts and spending, but, like Bush, has confined any restraint on federal spending to a sliver of the $2.4 trillion budget, leaving untouched Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, defense, homeland security and education spending. The non-defense, non-homeland-security, non-education spending that remains equals about 17 percent of the budget, and much of it is sacrosanct to lawmakers on Capitol Hill.

Like Bush, Kerry pledges to cut the deficit in half in five years. According to the Congressional Budget Office, economic growth would cut the deficit nearly that much even if no new policies were adopted to change spending or tax receipts over that time.

The real problem comes beyond that window, in 2011, when all of Bush's $1.7 trillion in tax cuts are set to expire. In 2012 alone, the expired tax cuts would add $249 billion to federal revenue. To draw out his comparison to Bush's fiscal policies, Kerry shows how his budget proposals would compare to Bush's if all the tax cuts were made permanent, as Bush has demanded of Congress. But even Kerry advisers acknowledge that his plan would worsen the deficit, compared with where it would be if the tax cuts were allowed to disappear, as current law holds.

Sperling conceded that Kerry's budget would not pay for extending the Bush tax cuts that Kerry supports. This is a change for Kerry. Just last month, over the objections of the White House and the Republican leadership, four GOP moderates in the Senate joined Kerry and other Democrats to pass a budget that includes far stricter impediments to new tax cuts and new spending.

As for offsets Kerry outlined yesterday, Clinton and others proposed many of the same measures to bring the budget into balance, such as collecting royalties for mineral rights on federal lands and cutting subsidies to high-income corporate farmers. But they got nowhere in Congress. And if Congress remains in Republican control, Kerry's call to raise $17 billion by extending "Superfund" environmental cleanup requirements on businesses is not likely to be enacted.

Kerry also proposed freezing the federal travel budget and cutting 100,000 contractors employed by the government.

The Bush campaign accused Kerry of glossing over his Senate record, which includes scores of votes for spending increases and tax hikes. "John Kerry's newfound interest in fiscal discipline is a political gimmick that defies his 20-year record in the Senate and stands in stark contrast to his reckless and expansive promises of new government spending on the campaign trail," said Steve Schmidt, a Bush campaign spokesman. Bush has turned many of those votes, especially for tax increases, into the sharpest ads of the early campaign.

Kerry, however, voted for several balanced budget plans and tax cuts the Bush campaign ignores in its ads and speeches. The Massachusetts senator's record is filled with votes on both sides of these issues, painting a complicated and sometimes confusing portrait. But as a presidential candidate, he has repeatedly pushed for middle-class tax cuts, even early on when many Democrats were clamoring for a total repeal of the Bush tax cuts.

Kerry twice noted in his speech that 98 percent of individuals would get a tax break, because he would repeal the Bush tax cut only for the richest 2 percent of Americans, and 99 percent of corporations would get a tax break because of his plan to reduce corporate income taxes by 5 percent across the board.

For the first time, Kerry detailed his plan to raise the amount of an estate not subject to taxation to $4 million for families and $10 million for a family-owned farm. Bush's tax cut that was passed in 2001 also raised that exemption, but not until late this decade, and repeals it in 2010. Kerry would maintain the estate tax for large inheritances.

In addition to protecting the Bush tax cuts for those making less than $200,000 annually, Kerry supports tax breaks to make education and health care more affordable. Kerry said the savings from a repeal of tax cuts for the rich would finance his expansion of health care and education programs.

Under Kerry's plan, spending would be allowed to go up only as fast as inflation. If spending exceeded that rate, a Kerry administration would cut spending across the board for all programs save entitlements, defense, homeland security and education.





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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
enthusiast
Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Libertarians: Kerry or Bush? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2653846 - 05/08/04 05:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
If acting purely on Libertarian principle, one should vote for the Libertarian candidate. However, since the Libertarian candidate has no chance of winning, those of us that use the two-party system will have to make a choice between which of these is more important: low taxes and gun ownership rights or a balanced budget, civil liberties and peace. I choose the latter, so I will vote for Kerry.




Gun ownership isn't a civil liberty? Should I paste your comments about what makes up "civil rights" from our discussion about rights in the thread that I started?


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Offlinegrib
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 550
Loc: Here and there
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Re: Libertarians: Kerry or Bush? [Re: Evolving]
    #2654578 - 05/08/04 09:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
None of the above.




Ditto... better to write-in Mickey Mouse.


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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