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Invisiblevampirism
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Question to religious people
    #2933778 - 07/27/04 08:05 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

When referring to religious people, I mean anyone who follows a religious path towards spirituality, with God in mind. For nothing more than ease, I will refer to the omnipotent as God and use the pronoun "he"

It seems to me that most, if not all, religions overlook one important facet of God - He can do ANYTHING.

Now, you may say, no shit!

But then, I am left with a problem which led me away from my religion - why should he have to do anything for any of his followers, and why would he care for them? Should your caring somehow influence his?

I concluded that religion can only help us get through life, and will not affect the afterlife, if there is one. And if it only helps us get through life, well.. then I want no part of it


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: vampirism]
    #2933937 - 07/27/04 09:04 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"why should he have to do anything for any of his followers, and why would he care for them? "

The first answer is he doesn't have to do anything for his followers but he does anyway. As a "religious" person I believe all good things come from God, Including  :mushroom2:

The second question is more profound. I will take a stab at it.

God, who is infinitely good and infinitely powerful, created beings like himself (capable of reason and love) out of an overflowing of his infinite love.

More simply because careing for us is a good thing, and God does good things because he is God like that. :smirk:


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: shroomydan]
    #2933945 - 07/27/04 09:06 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

and he is doing a mighty fine job of caring to


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: shroomydan]
    #2934092 - 07/27/04 09:59 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

but then, why are you religious? Let's say God suddenly changes the tables on you - what you perceived is the opposite of what he made, or something like that

i dont know

theres no way to see if anyone goes to "heaven" or "hell," and maybe the turnout is quite random from human eyes


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OfflineDigs
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: vampirism]
    #2934328 - 07/27/04 11:05 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You guys make it sound like god's some big dude on a white cloud who looks over Earth and deposits people into little actual physical places called heaven and hell -.-


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: Digs]
    #2935345 - 07/28/04 03:45 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The true religious motivation is not from a desire to achieve heaven and avoid hell(whether said placed exist in the space time continuum or elsewhere).

The true religios motivation is a desire for either good, truth, unity, or beauty.

Any of these qualities in its most perfect form leads to the other three.

God is ultimately one, abslutely true, and perfectly good; this of course makes him beautiful.

He is not some big dude on a cloud.


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OfflineDigs
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: shroomydan]
    #2935431 - 07/28/04 04:47 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:The true religios motivation is a desire for either good, truth, unity, or beauty.

Any of these qualities in its most perfect form leads to the other three.




True religious motivation for whom? So are any other religious motivations invalid?

And to say that each of these qualities spawns from the others is totally objective, not to mention things like good and beauty are also objective qualities.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: vampirism]
    #2935476 - 07/28/04 05:35 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

As God revealed Himself as "I Am What I Am" to Moses, the ecstatic mystery of God is His unlimited pathos that is attributed in response to living, animate creatures that hold within them a spark, where fragments of the Divine are persisting in the hope of the beholder. A kind of universe lives within that yearns to return home.

In order to know God one must have a humble imagination because a) God is Unlimited.. He is the dhikr of the dervish, the tear in Christ's eye, the Mother panda who cares for her young, the love a parent has towards a child, the compassionate emotions of people.. all of these are symbols of the Divine Reality. Symbols for those who see God as unlimited in all His manifested and unseen Glory. Finally b) with knowing God as He Is, one obviously has to defy physics when one enters the Glory, Pleroma, Unseen, Unmanifest of God ecstasy after physical death. A mind dominated by self-perceived rationality is also dominated by the human ego. When one can imagine religions as symbolic ideas of the Divine, their divine (not human) ego begins to live an unlimited life as one begins to realize their relationship with God is subjectively limitless. Imagination is God-given, and God is Love.

Peace.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: Zahid]
    #2935495 - 07/28/04 06:22 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

That's fancy writing.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: Zahid]
    #2936894 - 07/28/04 05:23 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
As God revealed Himself as "I Am What I Am" to Moses, the ecstatic mystery of God is His unlimited pathos that is attributed in response to living, animate creatures that hold within them a spark, where fragments of the Divine are persisting in the hope of the beholder. A kind of universe lives within that yearns to return home.

In order to know God one must have a humble imagination because a) God is Unlimited.. He is the dhikr of the dervish, the tear in Christ's eye, the Mother panda who cares for her young, the love a parent has towards a child, the compassionate emotions of people.. all of these are symbols of the Divine Reality. Symbols for those who see God as unlimited in all His manifested and unseen Glory. Finally b) with knowing God as He Is, one obviously has to defy physics when one enters the Glory, Pleroma, Unseen, Unmanifest of God ecstasy after physical death. A mind dominated by self-perceived rationality is also dominated by the human ego. When one can imagine religions as symbolic ideas of the Divine, their divine (not human) ego begins to live an unlimited life as one begins to realize their relationship with God is subjectively limitless. Imagination is God-given, and God is Love.

Peace.




what?
i could just read my discordian books if i wanted bullshit.

EDIT; my apologiez btw,
i just think u need to make your writing more relatable. otherwise its just babble.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Edited by BleaK (07/28/04 06:00 PM)


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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: shroomydan]
    #2936905 - 07/28/04 05:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
"why should he have to do anything for any of his followers, and why would he care for them? "

The first answer is he doesn't have to do anything for his followers but he does anyway. As a "religious" person I believe all good things come from God, Including  :mushroom2:

The second question is more profound. I will take a stab at it.

God, who is infinitely good and infinitely powerful, created beings like himself (capable of reason and love) out of an overflowing of his infinite love.

More simply because careing for us is a good thing, and God does good things because he is God like that. :smirk:




what he said.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2937021 - 07/28/04 05:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"and God does good things because he is God like that"
if he did bad things, would he not be God?

and "The first answer is he doesn't have to do anything for his followers but he does anyway."
He still does things for all of his other creations too though, doesn't he?

shroomydan : if religion is a path to becoming good, then why rely on religion to find out what is good?

Zahid: Interesting

"A mind dominated by self-perceived rationality is also dominated by the human ego. When one can imagine religions as symbolic ideas of the Divine, their divine (not human) ego begins to live an unlimited life as one begins to realize their relationship with God is subjectively limitless. Imagination is God-given, and God is Love."

But still, why religion then? Why not experience every moment of existence and find God there? Ideas of the Divine can't be limited to religions then, can they?


*Note to all* I'm just trying to understand this more, or maybe suggest the mental path I took so you understand me.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: vampirism]
    #2937900 - 07/28/04 09:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Religion is not the only path to the center. It is just one path...


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: vampirism]
    #2937970 - 07/28/04 10:10 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But still, why religion then? Why not experience every moment of existence and find God there? Ideas of the Divine can't be limited to religions then, can they?




Any idea of the Divine is limited, other than the Divine itself. Much of the purpose of Christ's life, or Muhammad's mission is to wake people up from material slumber and realize the God-reality. One becomes unlimited when they realize every religious idea is simply a massive effort to bring souls into the light... a global salvation for people who don't have the personal capacity to realize that salvation is personal, subjective.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: BleaK]
    #2937989 - 07/28/04 10:16 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Then don't read it (as I can already tell you wouldn't appreciate it). I'm not writing a "One-Minute Sufi" here.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: vampirism]
    #2938180 - 07/28/04 11:24 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"and God does good things because he is God like that"
if he did bad things, would he not be God?

and "The first answer is he doesn't have to do anything for his followers but he does anyway."
He still does things for all of his other creations too though, doesn't he?

Yes; God does good things for everybody :cool:


And no, if he did evil things then he would not be God. Even though my Muslim and Jewish brothers may disagree.

God by nature is eternal absolute good, and therefore is incapable of doing evil. One could argue that God can do anything, so he is capable of doing evil. This logic however is misleading because it contains a contradiction, just like the question, "Can God make a rock so big that he can't pick it up?" The absolute good could not contradict himself by doing something evil, and still remain absolute good.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: vampirism]
    #2938404 - 07/29/04 12:15 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

One has to be aware of the Eternal [Life] during THIS life. Death is not a savior, a liberator. Death merely ends the opportunity we had to Realize and Live Eternal Life. If "God is love," as 1 John 4:8 states, and God is Eternal, then Love is Eternal. Hence, by becoming Love (altruistic, agape, selfless, Compassion), which is to say, by becoming a loving being in every conscious moment, we eventually become identified with this Meta-Motive. In Christian terms, we are then doing 'the will of God' - we are living exponents of Love. All of our desires become 'ordered' by Love like a loadstone or magnet orders a random scattering of iron filings into a visible, symmetrical pattern of force. Our Center of conscious life moves from ego-based desires to the Meta-Motive of Love or Compassion.

Only Love survives in death, the rest of us is annihilated. It would seem that the world of walking egos is annihilated for the most part. As Plotinus said: "Only eyes that have become like unto the sun can look into the sun." Moreover, our individual beinghood arises out of the Eternal Ground of Being, which is GOD. We exist mind-moment-to-mind-moment drawing life from GOD
both physically (breath) and metaphysically (spirit, consciousness).

Spiritual existence is not a nice idea. It is not a crutch. To think as much is the thinking of a Philistine - only material concerns and common sense are real. "The one who dies with the most toys wins.'' ''Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.'' Philistines.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2939284 - 07/29/04 04:25 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:

Like Mevlana Jalal ud-Din Rumi's poetic plea to humanity, "If you want to remain alive, fall in Love!"  :cool:


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InvisibleDieCommie
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: vampirism]
    #2939356 - 07/29/04 05:14 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I dont think God can "do anything" in all religions. In some religions God or gods had very real limits. Although these religions are not popular now with the spread of the so called monotheistic religions.


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OfflineIamHungry
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Re: Question to religious people [Re: vampirism]
    #2939577 - 07/29/04 09:26 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

if G-d created the universe for us, we should really concern ourselves with this universe and not with G-d. i believe He has a plan, and that plan is to help those who dont need Him. it probably doesnt make any sense to you guys but what doesnt make sense to me is people who will sit around waiting for a miracle when in fact they should have the inner drive to go out and do it themselves. this sounds a little corny since im taking it out of a movie (Bruce Almighty) but it really plays an important part in my particular beliefs, but here goes: parting a sea "is a magic trick, not a miracle. A single mom with 2 jobs who still manages to get her kids to soccer practice is a miracle. A young inner city child who chooses an education instead of drugs is a miracle."
when people pray for money and fame is ridiculous too, i think G-d wants us to be happy whatever we do. just because He created everything we see doesnt mean he has to be in charge of it all the time. thats why we were given free will-so we could have a hand at shaping our world and therefore work alongside G-d.


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