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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Asante]
    #2787634 - 06/12/04 01:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Wiccan, your post brings so much more to the table then I could have ever thought, while elaborating on so much more then just a way to stop a problem of taking a risk with these drugs. You stated brilliantly what I have been trying to state about how the phsyical problems can overtake the mental problems, while you can be experiencing positive thoughts while going through horrible phsyical problems. This proves that mind over matter is not anything but a person who has handled what they thought was an intense trip.

This means that there are varying levels of psychedelic uses coming very close to death even among the most intense care, and my 'tips' were to stop anything below what you have experienced. What astounds me is that you have experienced these trips before hand without incident (I assume) and how it can all change. This also shows an insight to a very high dose trip not the way just because you can do it and you want to discover more, but rather it is a 'Rite of Passage', or at least how I see it, into a title.


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OfflineHardicus
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2791531 - 06/14/04 03:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It's horses for courses, some people may think they are prepared for a level 5 ego-shattering trip, but when it comes to the punch, realise that they aren't and spin into a horrifying experience that is unreversible. In such a situation isn't it a good idea for this person to be able to hit the abort button? It's all well and good to say 'you should just ride it out', but what if they have an undiagnosed mental condition or chemical imbalance? I think it's a matter of safety above all else, the benzos should be a last resort, but we've all head stories of people doing nasty shit on bad trips (self mutilation, murder, suicide etc), in these cases wouldn't it have been better for them to take a benzo and go to bed? Sorry but I think if you disagree then YOU are the one with the problem.

A query if I may, since i don't have access to benzos/barbs, would anyone know if there would be any problems with taking a dose of codeine to dull the high, considering codeine is much easier to obtain.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2791805 - 06/14/04 10:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Heyy :grin: As to the physical and mental, things aren't as clear-cut as you might think they are. Mental processes, especially those surrounding Ego Death are well-known to produce frightening physical symptoms. In fact you can count on those happening. But these are -symbolical- and psychological in origin.

They, like Ego Death, will not cause biological Death because they are meant to be a mental and spiritual hurdle to step across.

If you feel you are suffocating, by all means try to go with it. Should you fall unconscious by it the autonomic nervous system will take over and you will be OK. The bodily basis is most often psychologically induced hyperventilation or psychogenic asthma.
The latter can be especially severe but will never truely harm because its a self-limiting process.

However psychedelics are -not- Wonder Drugs, meaning an asthmatic can get a severe -real- attack and cardiac patients (me) are at an individually differing higher risk for having a myocardial infarction.

So your mind can (and will) -mimic- serious bodily events when you're getting there but will in ha healthy person never cause a -real- medical condition.

If you are susceptible to a medical condition aggrevated by stress such as epilepsy, respiratory disease, cardiovascular diseases and pregnancy (any kind of severe stress can cause miscarriage) or have either a vulnerability or an already present mental disorder you are at risk.

Said physical diseases may create life-threatening situations and the mental problems may give rise to serious psychologic disturbances.

Perfectly healthy people wont get either of this. But the problem is that one in four adults experiences one or more severe mental crises in their lifetime and you can only be reasonably assured you never had one, but are -never- sure whether one is on its way.

Well lets throw some stuff in the blender to get some idea. Lets scratch sex, race, age, social enviroment, genetic predisposition and those things and make a very homogenous guesstimate.

If assumed the crisis is associated with a 5 year aura of either susceptibility plus chance of relapse, you scratch the unlikely young and old your average life can be chopped in 10 chunks of 5 years each.

If you downplay the true figure you can assume one in four people has one chunk of higher risk in his lifetime.
So one in fourty chunks carries significant risk.

This means that over one in fourty people is at risk of activating or aggrevating a pre-existing mental problem they may not be aware of which is quite a stiff number, but if you forget the medical words and state that "one in fourty people who'll take shrooms for a time will have a horrible misadventure that makes them feel like shit for quite some time after" I say that would be conservative.

So the problem is you likely wont know there even -is- a problem until you run into it, and the most effective way to run into something you can't handle is by being ill-informed, less prepared, on a higher dose, without a guide.

Ten bees can sting the shite out of me and it will be quite painful, I will likely add a whole new chapter to the Book of Psalms :grin: but that'll be that. For someone with bee allergy even a single sting is an acute, dangerous medical emergency.
How can you know you're allergic to bees until you're stung?


Many people just cannot cope with intense experiences involving loss of control and Ego Death is one of the purest forms thereof.

If you fear losing control, or feel you have -reasons- to fear losing control, you may likely try to fight Ego Death with all your might, which causes extreme stress and anxiety.

Unfortunately some people will react to any kind of extreme anxiety and stress with traumatic reactions, a nervous breakdown or even strong activation of their mental illness. Like the sarge sez: "when you lose it you're lost until you find it again."



This is where the Benzo's come in. Hardicus mistakingly assumes they will put you on your ass and that's that :grin:
Nope: Indeed Benzo's can abort a trip.. but only a trip that is relatively uneventful

If you got generic severe anxiety (almost all bad trips are generic) then indeed its good riddance, in fact the typical response is trippers whining they're too sober all of a sudden :evil:

But if the anxiey is a side effect of deep inner processes the effect is radically different. Then the Benzo's will only take some of the fears away but you stay on-topic: you -have to deal with it- and the Benzo's will help you do that by taking the excess fear down a notch.

Ego Death is a spiritual process. A psychedelic may activate its onset, but it's one of your higher functions. Most people confuse Ego Death with the Ego Dissolution of "Triplevel 5" but it stands apart from it.

Ego Dissolution is surrendering to the loss of the Any & All and having your "you" melt away. This is unbelievably intense but some people "routinely" :blush: do this for years on end in level 5 trips.
You will not enter Ego Dissolution at K-Mart, but can be vividly remembered of it.

Ego Death however is in essence an Ego Dissolution but with a major difference: Ego Death means you have to come to terms with every instance of hurt, pain and fear of your entire life, step by step, and culminates in a final symbolic death-and-rebirth associated with non-negotiable surrender to your worst pains and fears.

Once past that darkest hour you're welcomed into the rest of your life: you have left the past behind you, relived and learned from it, often feel lastingly spiritually cleansed and most significantly: you will likely have many instances of Ego Dissolution should you trip, but the distinctive Ego Death features (reliving your life's experiences and Death & Rebirth processes) are behind you and will never return.

All people who've experienced Ego Death have experienced Ego Dissolution, but many who have ample experience with Ego Dissolution
haven't started the process of Ego Death yet.

Dr. Stanislav Grof (genius psychedelic therapist) describes the Ego Death process in his must-read book LSD Psychotherapy as generally taking (well) over a dozen subsequent high-dose LSD sessions with the time between sessions usually spent under strong influence of associated death/rebirth themes which differentiates the one-time process of Ego Death from the ongoing Ego Dissolutions high doses can provide for those capable of learning how to do this.


*pfffffff!* :blush:  Bottom Line: Benzos are risk-carrying drugs but they should be present pre-dosed in every tripper's pocket as they can mean the difference between succeeding in taking a major psychological hurdle, perhaps ride it out and hang on, or coming down into problems that do not cease with the drug effect.

Even if there would be a real and genuine "copout pill" I would suggest that "the Blue Pill" be present in the tripgroup.
But Benzo's arent. They take the trip away if its generic, but will just help you cope with the stress and fear when the "bad trip" is all about really important things.

Any doctor will prescribe his average patient a couple of Benzo pills if he's plagued by rare bouts of stress leading to insomnia. The 10 pills a year routinely prescribed for occasional use would pose no addiction risks and in fact prescribing a tripper a single
strip of Benzo's is medically completely justifiable for any non-political doctor... Most docs are politicians tho.

I do not advocate use of drugs, especially hard drugs, but should a tripper be offered a big Klonopin, Roofie or Xanax by a trusted FOAF
I'd rather see him buy a single tab for that very special emergency he might experience or witness then let him walk away.


.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Asante]
    #2792511 - 06/14/04 03:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If you think comparing high dose tripping to getting hooked & hoisted India style is thats your problem.





How is that my problem ? I was merely expressing that I thought you were being a bit melodramatic.

On a day when I'm feeling mentally or physically stressed, if forced to choose I might opt for the steel hooks rather than a quad of sacrament. Believe me, I agree that the choice to dose is a serious one.

I guess the reason I rolled my eyes is because your words might possibly cause some pre-trip anxiety for others and I simply wanted to indicate that generally, a person will come out on the other side of a 1/4oz trip OK. I've had one distinct ego death experience on 7 grams. It was the most intense drug experience Ive ever had, but it was also, in some ways, one of the easiest to deal with simply because it was so overwhelming I had no choice but to surrender.

I think that a half-eight is potentially more dangerous than a quarter, precisely because the smaller dose might leave you suspended in a state of ego dissolution which certainly can linger beyond the drug's effects, whereas a quarter is more likely to compell you beyond the resistance of your ego through to a glorious and refreshing rebirth.

Good to see you on the boards btw WS.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2792517 - 06/14/04 03:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I never had the overheating problem, but then again I've only had one high-dose trip.


--------------------


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OfflineRedo
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Registered: 04/13/04
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Viveka]
    #2792582 - 06/14/04 03:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

EvilEye? said:

I think that a half-eight is potentially more dangerous than a quarter, precisely because the smaller dose might leave you suspended in a state of ego dissolution which certainly can linger beyond the drug's effects, whereas a quarter is more likely to compell you beyond the resistance of your ego through to a glorious and refreshing rebirth.





I disagree, the duration is the biggest problem, while the half-eight usually is mild euphoric with almost no associated physical problems, the full quarter is full euphoric to hellish with major phsyical and mental changes


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Invisiblejonneill
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Registered: 06/08/04
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2793123 - 06/14/04 07:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Physicians (and those that know what's up as far as psychedelics, even) often give things like Thorazine to help "abort" bad experiences... However, this cure can often be worse than the malady itself. Some prefer to keep this stuff on hand, most don't. Choose WISELY.


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Invisiblegdman
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: jonneill]
    #2793147 - 06/14/04 07:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

no I would not recomend that at all, belive me, nasty stuff


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Got a question about a substance?  Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the  mushroom experience? The  Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before.
         
I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights.
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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: jonneill]
    #2793204 - 06/14/04 08:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Thorazine.. it shouldnt be given anymore.


When pharms really are needed.. Old-fashioned hostile pharming would be to hammer you with a huge dose of antipsychotic like 150+mg Thorazine or 15+mg Haloperidol in every instance which is a nightmare even without a "bad trip".
A modern, less-invasive low-dose approach could be:


For severe in-trip anxiolytic effects: Benzodiazepines, preferably long-acting. Example: Klonopin 0.5-1mg, Valium 10-20mg or Rohypnol 1-2mg. In Dutch emergency medicine Benzodiazepines are the #1 medicines in emergency room treatment of bad trips.

For post-trip hypnosedation to facilitate direly needed sleep: 25mg Promethazine, a sedative anti-allergic.

In the case of truely unworkable post-trip inner chaos: Haloperidol, 1-4mg or in case of post-trip psychosis 2-6mg. This limits the occurrence of side effects favorably compared to vast doses.

Low doses of anti-anxiety medicines combined with low to moderate dosed non-sedating antipsychotics are superior to a vast dose of antipsychotic in efficiency, side effects and patient acceptability.


The LSD therapist Stanislav Grof considered bad trip-countering with Thorazine to be both cruel and ineffective. This was 1980.

Thorazine ought to be an artefact of the past, not a present-day treatment of most of its former indications.
It has no place in modern treatment of bad trips.


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Invisiblegdman
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: jonneill]
    #2793232 - 06/14/04 08:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

imagine being paralized and still tripping


--------------------


Got a question about a substance?  Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the  mushroom experience? The  Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before.
         
I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights.
  - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess

"I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve


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OfflineHardicus
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Asante]
    #2793383 - 06/15/04 12:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
This is where the Benzo's come in. Hardicus mistakingly assumes they will put you on your ass and that's that :grin:
Nope: Indeed Benzo's can abort a trip.. but only a trip that is relatively uneventful



Ah ok, I just kind of assumed that the benzos would be just as powerful as ever. I know 1 xanax will knock me the fuck out when i'm straight, I figured it would be just as strong on a mushroom trip, but i've never tried it personally.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Hardicus]
    #2793504 - 06/15/04 12:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Hardicus said:
Ah ok, I just kind of assumed that the benzos would be just as powerful as ever. I know 1 xanax will knock me the fuck out when i'm straight, I figured it would be just as strong on a mushroom trip, but i've never tried it personally.




Just think of it as more counteracting then what its like when you take it sober. You still get the benzo feel but its nowhere on the same caliber as if you take the benzo while not trippin.


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Offlinekitsune
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2819633 - 06/23/04 02:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"change your setting, lighting, music." I agree with that statement 100%. Also, taking someones mind off what's happening can help, too. I don't think keeping pills around while tripping is a great idea, someone in that fucked a mindset may be just as likely to down the bottle to end the trip as take 1 or 2 to calm down. And sometimes you learn from your "bad trips" as much as your good ones. "You buy the ticket, you take the ride." If your worried enough about the possibility of a bad trip that your gonna pack meds "just in case," your setting yourself up for the fall. If your that worried and lacking confidence of a good time, don't take anything in the first place or stick to 1 and 2 gram (or equivalent) doses. If your worried about the rollercoasters, stick to the teacup ride!


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: kitsune]
    #2819696 - 06/23/04 02:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I never said have the whole bottle, and as stated before, it isnt a ride of just the mind, its a ride of the whole body.


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Invisibleidiotek
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2820953 - 06/23/04 02:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Whenever I'm tripping really hard and need to escape whatever may be freaking me out.. I just stick my copy of Dark Side of the Moon into my discman, use my best headphones, go into a bathroom or dimly lit room ALONE and .. well, yeah. I listen to it.

It helps, I swear. "Breathe" would chill anyone out.


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Invisiblehawk
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: gnrm23]
    #2821747 - 06/23/04 06:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Just a question does NIACINAMIDE have any effect on Ayahuasca?


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