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OfflineRedo
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High dose tripping essentials
    #2771071 - 06/07/04 10:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If your ever considering delving into the world of a high dose trip, or want to do it again, here a few essentials to make sure you can come out with sigh of relief it it all goes bad.

1) Sedatives/Tranqulizers - If you have the gall to do a big dose like a quarter of shrooms or more, your heartrate and blood pressure can go out of control, and you also get overheated and your mind will race fast fast fast. This can lead to a very bad trip that is sustained for hours, which nobody ever wants. If this happens you can take a sedative or tranq to mellow the trip. And a low dose wont work, the higher the therapudic dose the better. It really is the biggest difference between hating tripping for the rest of your life and coming out with greater understanding at the end. (barbs and benzos are the best, alcohol to be avoidid at all costs to 'abort' a trip. Dont try to injest something that you think may work, you need something that will work)

2) The instant you start walking around your heartrate picks up, and you begin to get hot. Avoid wearing heavy clothes when starting to wonder, this can turn a trip bad instantly (its hard to tell when your overheating)

3) I recommend tripping alone at these high doses, the second something dosent go your way with another person can be a bad time.

Well, im sure theres more but thats all I can think of now, any more suggestions?


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Offlinegotmagog
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo] * 1
    #2771080 - 06/07/04 10:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well, the overheating has never really been a problem for me.
U are right about friends, the heroic doses of mushrooms are best experienced alone, in your room during darkness. The show will be in your head anyway.

However, I don't think it is a good idea to use tranquilizers during a trip, it is always best to let go, and not use chemical weapons against your brain, like the commercial tranquilizers  :thumbdown:, so to say, I hate those things .


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: gotmagog]
    #2771158 - 06/07/04 11:25 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

When a trip is going out of control, you need to calm it down. Bad trips can last for a long duration, especially on high doses.

Also, I would say never do a high dose trip without testing the potency first, thats a real biggie.


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OfflineGaNjAShRooM
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2771177 - 06/07/04 11:35 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

the only only essential i need is weed


--------------------
Cultivation Laws Of America Suck


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OfflineViveka
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2771180 - 06/07/04 11:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I agree with gotmagog. Do you use chemical copouts to deal with every stressful situation in your life, or just the psychadelic ones?

It's my view that if you choose to eat a dose of mushrooms, you should ride out the experience, heaven and hell. What's the value in having an experience if you're just going to abort it when things get a little rough?


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Viveka]
    #2771237 - 06/07/04 12:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Because a little rough could be an hour of super high heart rate and the feeling of going to die. Its always better to know if you have a way out, sedatives or tranqs wont kill the trip completly, and you still can be having a bad trip after you take them, but its alot better. Overwhelming heat and super hard fast heart beats for an extending period of time will send anybody nuts, and sometimes theres no comming off a bad trip. Things just are going to fast and your body is overloaded.


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OfflineCherk
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2771572 - 06/07/04 01:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I've never had a bad trip, it's all about preperation. I'm not saying I'll never have a "bad" trip, but as long as I'm prepared I don't think its likely.


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2771596 - 06/07/04 02:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> 1) Sedatives/Tranqulizers
> 3) I recommend tripping alone at these high doses
> any more suggestions

If you are doing such a massive dosage that you might need sedatives, then you damn well better have a trip sitter there to decide if and when you need to take them.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Seuss]
    #2771687 - 06/07/04 02:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

sitter may do more damage then good, delving into big doses is dangerous, and these steps #1, make you feel more secure, and two, will maximize the ability for a smooth trip. You dont have to take the sedatives... its just there in case, and believe me, they help in case.

And im not saying take them on the first glimpse of a bad trip, most all trips are controllable. Sometimes the body load is too high, thats when the seds are necessary.


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: Seuss]
    #2771691 - 06/07/04 02:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)



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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: ]
    #2771735 - 06/07/04 02:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I guess that nobody thinks of a possible bad trip ever. Sounds kinda oblivious to me, because it happens. Its like having adrenaline or some anti-drug acting agent in a drug house in case somebody OD's. Too many bad trips result in ambulance calls that lead to family finding out, loosing respect, etc. This can all be avoided very simply.


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OfflineMisfitsRuled
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2772059 - 06/07/04 04:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yeah it can be avoided by doseing responsibly IMO!!

:rolleyes:


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Invisiblegdman
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2772160 - 06/07/04 05:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

you don't need tranqs when shrooming, that's like saying your expecting to have a bad time, no, I strongly disagree with you if your taking high doses you need to ride them out. They aren't going to kill you, trust me.


--------------------


Got a question about a substance?  Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the  mushroom experience? The  Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before.
         
I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights.
  - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess

"I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve


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Offlinenickelpenny
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: gdman]
    #2773096 - 06/07/04 10:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yea if you have a horrible trip and you feel like your going to die and you wished that you hadnt dosed so much!....you reap what you sew.

Ride it out.

But i can see how having tranqs near can help you have a light in a bad trip..but i dont see the need for it. Just have a close friend who in the past has dosed as much and tripped as hard and is as intelligent as you are(now thats a light in a bad trip)to know when to call an ambulance.

Because if he/she is just a mindless never really tripped in my life kinda sitter..i could see how they would call an ambulance when you go bizzerk.


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Invisiblegdman
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: nickelpenny]
    #2773160 - 06/07/04 11:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yeah I hate sober people while tripping, especilly people who never tripped, I hate them.


--------------------


Got a question about a substance?  Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the  mushroom experience? The  Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before.
         
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  - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess

"I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve


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Offline0xYg3n
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: gdman]
    #2773335 - 06/07/04 11:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

yeah I hate sober people while tripping, especilly people who never tripped, I hate them.





hahahaha yeah... I could see it now....

"..why do you trip? It's bad for you. Like it's illegal and causes brain damage ya know? Yeah and like it gives you bad trips like last forever and stuff and who wants to go crazy forever? LIke, one time my cousins friend's dogs sister had a bad trip and had to go into the hospital.... so have fun making your brain bleed too. Druggy......."


Edited by 0xYg3n (06/07/04 11:58 PM)


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2773384 - 06/08/04 12:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I completely agree about having a way to abort a bad trip... not only could this save you a horrid time which I'm sure no one wants...its easy to sit here and say its best to endure it and shit but when your in the middle of a bad trip you want anything that will end the horror...also I think just having tranqs will put your mind at ease knowing that if anything goes wrong you can abort which will increase the chances of having a good trip since your not worrying about it going bad...good tips redo


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #2773949 - 06/08/04 07:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

^^ :smile:

Also, remember when I say abort it dosent end the trip, it merely lowers your heart rate, blood pressure, and relaxes you. It also directly effects the function of psychedelics, making you trip lighter then you were experiencing.

I just feel like its best to plan for this, some trips you cant just ride out. Like walrus said, while you experiencing a long long trip thats just going bad (hours and hours) youll be wishing you had some way to stop it.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2773952 - 06/08/04 07:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Also remember, these are smaller doses, when stuff goes wrong on big dosing it goes very very wrong.


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Invisiblegdman
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2774346 - 06/08/04 11:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

you reap what you sow my man, if your trip gose south you ride it out. Don't abort them, if you choose to trip you should roll with it, if you do not wish to face the good and the bad, maybe you should take a look at why you want to trip and change your drugs of choice.


--------------------


Got a question about a substance?  Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the  mushroom experience? The  Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before.
         
I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights.
  - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess

"I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve


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OfflineAaladorn
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: gdman]
    #2774375 - 06/08/04 12:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I agree, such strong fears of a bad trip will do nothing but help you have a bad trip. Try figuring out whats making you have a bad trip and try fixing it, otherwise I think you're going to always rely on these secondary drugs. And if you trip so hard that you just can't deal with anything, maybe high doses are not for you.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Aaladorn]
    #2774495 - 06/08/04 01:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well, Im just happy that I had them left over, its not like I was planning to go through what I went and in the end I was able to cope with it, even though it never went good.

Ride it out, you guys are nuts... Theres nothing like being responsible, because you know exactly what the drug can do, instead of saying ill deal with it when it happens. Have you ever had a bad trip that wont end or read the stories??? This is a precautionary suggestion, if you want to ride out your bad trip on high doses thats not my problem, im just trying to help people from hating tripping completly after a bad trip. Or calling the police, or contacting family. What you guys see as 'its your own fault', I see as.. avoidable.

And whoever said that your afraid of the trip? This is just in case you have one, eg planning ahead.


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Invisiblegdman
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2774528 - 06/08/04 01:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yes, I've had my share of powerful, ego shattering expiriances, I still say you have to ride it out, and don't just sit ther bugging change your setting, lighting, music. Have a trip sittier who is expirianced if your not and dose reponsibly. You have nothing to prove.


--------------------


Got a question about a substance?  Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the  mushroom experience? The  Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before.
         
I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights.
  - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess

"I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve


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Offlinenickelpenny
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: gdman]
    #2775598 - 06/08/04 08:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I wouldnt be eating shrooms if i was scared shitless of maybe someday having a bad trip.

Its just a risk that i'm willing to take.


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Offlinenickelpenny
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: nickelpenny]
    #2775629 - 06/08/04 08:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

anyway..if you want to be prepared for a high dose trip..you could maybe eat a gram or two less a few weeks before dosing the other massive dose. This could help you be prepared if you havent tripped in a long time.


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: gdman]
    #2776367 - 06/09/04 12:48 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

just because YOU like to ride out bad trips does not mean this is the way its supposed to be


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #2776588 - 06/09/04 02:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Remember, some trips cant be controlled, its not like you can shut off the big body load that comes with it. Sometimes its not all in your head, but what the trip does is play with your deteriorating body load only to the worse. This only continues to get worse, and at the best you can relax only to feel very uncomfortable with your physical condition, which will always lead to having your mind go back into hell. If you think riding it out is the thing to do, thats your problem. I on the other hand would like to see people not have to go through hell, even if they worked their way up, it still can happen.

And this isnt about paranoia of a bad trip, its just obtaining some pills in case, just think of is as another drug to do later on. And if it goes bad well its there...


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2777188 - 06/09/04 08:58 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

a possible alternative to tranks (& esp to barbs, sheesh...) might be:
(ta-da)

NIACINAMIDE

just having something that can slow things down (or turn things off, if need be) makes it less likely that "the fear" will getcha...

heh...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: gnrm23]
    #2777246 - 06/09/04 09:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Not very copacetic.

all i need, is my brain, and my self. Ive gone to the depths of hell and conquered the universe. I dont need a way to "get out" of a trip. No one does.You have to make it through yourself. Because truthfully the only fear that you have is the fear that you created for your own self.


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2777290 - 06/09/04 10:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

All i need for a good experience is a spliff to goto sleep and music and a mirror while im tripping.

Looking in the mirror is amazing really


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Chronic7]
    #2777472 - 06/09/04 11:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

None of you must have had the type of bad trip that Im talking about, because you cant conquer all trips, it must just be that some of us get into trips that there is no cure from by yourself. Maybe some of us have some heart troubles and some mental problems that otherwise wouldnt cause us any problems, but to think you can change it after the duration it has been going on, or just somehow endure it is ridiculus in my eyes. Maybe the post about inducing a bad trip was correct, and some should delve into it to see the power of these drugs, it is not all a mentally controllable situation, there are other factors. It does not just effect your head, it effects your entire body.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2777570 - 06/09/04 12:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> None of you must have had the type of bad trip that Im talking about, because you cant conquer all trips

:rolleyes:

> must just be that some of us get into trips that there is no cure from by yourself

Learn to surrender to the trip... bad trips come from fighting what is happening.

> some of us have some heart troubles and some mental problems

People with medical conditions should not be tripping, regardless.

> It does not just effect your head, it effects your entire body.

Mind over body...


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisiblegdman
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2777664 - 06/09/04 12:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It's called a trip for a reason, I will not argue with you anymore:

To fathom hell or soar angelic, Just take a pinch of psychedelic.
-Humphry Osmond

It's the yin and the yang, the bad and the good, you must learn to accept this or you doom any future trips.


--------------------


Got a question about a substance?  Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the  mushroom experience? The  Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before.
         
I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights.
  - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess

"I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: gdman]
    #2777733 - 06/09/04 01:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The drug effects the mind and body... you cant make you pupiles undialate can you?


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Invisiblegdman
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2778001 - 06/09/04 03:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

you can't controle all aspects of it, but one thing you certainly can controle is your mindset, even if you are sent through a profound egoloss, you'll come out alive on the other side. There is a fucking reason why they call it a trip.


--------------------


Got a question about a substance?  Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the  mushroom experience? The  Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before.
         
I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights.
  - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess

"I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: gdman]
    #2778164 - 06/09/04 04:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yes ;o, I know what a trip is, and I know youll come out alive, but its quite different when your experiencing it. Sometimes your body fuels your mind, if your body is running fast and wont stop, it means your mind can only relax for a certain number of minutes at a time.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2779439 - 06/09/04 11:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

***None of you must have had the type of bad trip that Im talking about, because you cant conquer all trips***


No, No, No, No !

Do not let yourself be swayed by consensus. Consensus used to be the earth was flat and who thought otherwise should be burned at the stake.

Well.. just like you I have burnt at the stake. Thats not the candysweet "frying", its not a strong anxiety attack or even a bout of severe psychogenic asthma.

It is way beyond that, and how you deal with that will make the difference between a successful trip, a marginal trip, or coming down with generalized anxiety disorder or post-traumatic stress disorder. (aka. war-vet "shell shock")

If you do not fight the trip you will not go psychiatric and come down with GAD or PTSD if you're sufficiently traumatized.

And that is true. 100% true.
Accepting the any & all and you will come out healthy.
Accepting the any & all..

When will people finally accept that some experiences for some people on some times are -that- raw that you just can NOT surrender to it.

You're sneaking through the jungle, weary for tripwires, keeping the shit out of your M-16. And suddenly, out of nowhere, there is the bright flash, the jet airplane-like roar and you're showered with splatter and shreds of your buddy who was watching your back.

PTSD.

Now you can say: "hey he should have gone with the flow, then he would have no problem" but all of a sudden severe psychotraumatic circumstances are recognized as possibly "too much".
What's the gruesome death of a buddy compared to very personal Ego-Death experiences one is equally unprepared for?

Any high-dose mushroom veteran who thinks the war example was exaggerated has simply had not had a -severely agonized trip- because they can well be as devastating. Some war vets get through this with few problems later on while some mushroom users get fucked up severely for years.
Sometimes you can NOT "go with" excruciating mental agonies.
At that moment, you just can't.

Any tripper who is in posession of suitable tranquilizers is less then intelligent if he doesnt pack em on any trip, just in case. The only suitable tranquilizers are "Benzo"diazepines. Do NOT under any circumstances introduce barbiturates or antipsychotics during the trip. A sober trip guide well-versed in mental illness can decide if these must be deployed but not somebody who's in a state where tranqs are needed.

These are the BENZODIAZEPINES:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/uspdi/202084.html

Every tripper in the group should have his own dose handy and ought to be able to take them, at any moment, no questions asked.
A tripper shouldn't have more tranqs then pose an acceptable, calculated risk.

This would be the doses given above (the MEDLINE link) that are the maximum doses for *starting out* on anxiety, panic or sleep-inducing meds. These will fall between the equivalent of 5-30mg Diazepam. (valium) with 10-20mg usually being highly effective even on doses as high as 1/8 to 1/4 of cubies.

Chew the pill and hold under the tongue or at least in the mouth for some minutes for rapid effects. This is basically the backbone of ER bad trip intervention.

You will not be lifted from a bad trip, not at all. But the reduction of your anxiety because of the Benzos can make you feel safe enough to actually surrender and emerge victorious from peril, instead of fight and go DSM IV for weeks or months.



Now you should really do some soulsearching. Why on earth push the envelope by taking big doses which got you in such trouble before? Even half an eighth can get you as deeply into trouble as 1/4, its just likely to be *more managable* and not all, most in fact, are not positively affected by a high-dose regimen.

Shulgin only recommends psilocybin at doses up to 20mg at most.. how come you are taking 40-80 in those 1/4 of mushrooms?
Most people will get royally in trouble on 1/4 (7 dried grams) quite reliably. If it pushes real hard *and* you resist real hard, you might come down with psychiatric symptoms for quite a while.

If you are not ready to let steel hooks be driven into your flesh and you being hoisted up in the air by them like they do in India, you are NOT ready to take on 1/4 of mushrooms. Really.

I am more ready for the hooks then for 1/4 of strong mushrooms.
Definitely. I wouldn't nearly hesitate half as long over the hooks, if they just drive em deep enough so my 250+lbs won't tear out of em.
For the next couple of months.. absolutely no 1/4 for me.
It would be unhealthy.

I am currently fully engaged into the ego-death process.
Without any drug at all I get quite physical cues its time to meditate. In these meditations I get overcome by vivid dying sequences, reliving my near-death at the ICU and all bad shit from all times, lose sight and go -blind- until the very second I accept it..

And everytime I emerge victorious and have left more garbage behind me. Its hard, extremely hard. Its getting harder until I finally accept the unacceptable. Inside or outside of a psychedelic session.

I will make it. Absolutely.
Its not an "unhealthy LSD freak flasback thing" but I have come to the realisation my entire life pointed towards this symbolic shedding of my woes.

Its all symbolic. There is no danger in even the most severe bodily symptoms as they are gone the second I accept and feel them to their full intensity. Its pent-up resistance against Life itself. I will get there. Definitely. On LSD or a peanut butter sandwich :wink: Don't worry on my behalf: i'm actively solving my biggest problems

But I wont take high doses until I'm "clear" because I'm getting there with the slightest nudge and the *excessive* generic psychedelic effect of a fat dose would make it much harder if not impossible to surrender, as too much mushroom adds an additional anxiety to the process which is unneeded for its resolution, and for me plainly detrimental to achieving my goal.
In for a Penny, In for a Pound!



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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Asante]
    #2780581 - 06/10/04 09:52 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

^^ very good post,

Antipsychotics no, barbituates yes. Benzos act in almost the same exact was as barbs do, just benzos are much safer when taking alot of them.


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Asante]
    #2781300 - 06/10/04 01:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If you are not ready to let steel hooks be driven into your flesh and you being hoisted up in the air by them like they do in India, you are NOT ready to take on 1/4 of mushrooms. Really.





:rolleyes:


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Viveka]
    #2786194 - 06/11/04 09:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Hey I see you when you get there.

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, identity crisis, Psychosis, severe Flashbacks, Dissociative disorders, nervous breakdown, Depersonalisation disorders, Generalized Anxiety disorder, major Depressive episode, chronic insomnia, HPPD, loss of mental focus, abuse of hard drugs to numb mental anguish, and Bipolars, Epileptics and people predisposed to psychotic disorders thrown off-balance are all to be found on these forums, and al in one way or another implicate several or one specific mushroom trip that tipped them over an edge they often didnt know they were at.

Either these are spineless people copping out of riding it out... or perhaps something did happen to them which eclipsed any severity you've ever experienced.

Some folks dont just disappear from the boards because they lose interest, but because they are thrown mentally offline beyond a www login. One in ten people is in the danger zone for a serious mental episode even without psychedelics.

If you think comparing high dose tripping to getting hooked & hoisted India style is :rolleyes: thats your problem.

John Lennon achieved "ego loss" through LSD and needed a year, a highly unpleasant year, to piece himself together again and was quite bitter about the Leary book "The Psychedelic Experience" which advocated high doses of LSD, Psilocybin and Mescaline and basically throwing yourself in. In a radio interview he referred to it as "that stupid book".

Psychedelics, and especially high doses, are a -very serious matter- that needs deep soulsearching. I chose psychedelics, but I chose to pursue their path knowing full well that they might bring agonies as intense as steel hooks through flesh.

On the Intensive Care Unit of my local hospital I almost died many times over, especially in the night of 27-28 December 2002. That heart attack was my Rite of Passage, my hooks-through-flesh, and going in and out of biological death sequences was accompanied by the very same feelings, of the very same intensity, then in many of my sessions. Yes. half-an-eight can grip you every bit as hard and though symbolic that will feel every bit as real, and intense, to you as your actual biological death.
I can say that.

I have been there, with swift medical interventions keeping death at bay. Those "shrooms" were there for me, even though my last session was weeks earlier. Their lessons helped me to make up the balance of my life until I was ready to peacefully die should Death have come that night. Mushrooms are a life's decision beyond our comprehension.
*Physically dying :rolleyes:*


Rite of Passage.. know what you may be getting yourself into.


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Asante]
    #2787634 - 06/12/04 01:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Wiccan, your post brings so much more to the table then I could have ever thought, while elaborating on so much more then just a way to stop a problem of taking a risk with these drugs. You stated brilliantly what I have been trying to state about how the phsyical problems can overtake the mental problems, while you can be experiencing positive thoughts while going through horrible phsyical problems. This proves that mind over matter is not anything but a person who has handled what they thought was an intense trip.

This means that there are varying levels of psychedelic uses coming very close to death even among the most intense care, and my 'tips' were to stop anything below what you have experienced. What astounds me is that you have experienced these trips before hand without incident (I assume) and how it can all change. This also shows an insight to a very high dose trip not the way just because you can do it and you want to discover more, but rather it is a 'Rite of Passage', or at least how I see it, into a title.


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2791531 - 06/14/04 03:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It's horses for courses, some people may think they are prepared for a level 5 ego-shattering trip, but when it comes to the punch, realise that they aren't and spin into a horrifying experience that is unreversible. In such a situation isn't it a good idea for this person to be able to hit the abort button? It's all well and good to say 'you should just ride it out', but what if they have an undiagnosed mental condition or chemical imbalance? I think it's a matter of safety above all else, the benzos should be a last resort, but we've all head stories of people doing nasty shit on bad trips (self mutilation, murder, suicide etc), in these cases wouldn't it have been better for them to take a benzo and go to bed? Sorry but I think if you disagree then YOU are the one with the problem.

A query if I may, since i don't have access to benzos/barbs, would anyone know if there would be any problems with taking a dose of codeine to dull the high, considering codeine is much easier to obtain.


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2791805 - 06/14/04 10:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Heyy :grin: As to the physical and mental, things aren't as clear-cut as you might think they are. Mental processes, especially those surrounding Ego Death are well-known to produce frightening physical symptoms. In fact you can count on those happening. But these are -symbolical- and psychological in origin.

They, like Ego Death, will not cause biological Death because they are meant to be a mental and spiritual hurdle to step across.

If you feel you are suffocating, by all means try to go with it. Should you fall unconscious by it the autonomic nervous system will take over and you will be OK. The bodily basis is most often psychologically induced hyperventilation or psychogenic asthma.
The latter can be especially severe but will never truely harm because its a self-limiting process.

However psychedelics are -not- Wonder Drugs, meaning an asthmatic can get a severe -real- attack and cardiac patients (me) are at an individually differing higher risk for having a myocardial infarction.

So your mind can (and will) -mimic- serious bodily events when you're getting there but will in ha healthy person never cause a -real- medical condition.

If you are susceptible to a medical condition aggrevated by stress such as epilepsy, respiratory disease, cardiovascular diseases and pregnancy (any kind of severe stress can cause miscarriage) or have either a vulnerability or an already present mental disorder you are at risk.

Said physical diseases may create life-threatening situations and the mental problems may give rise to serious psychologic disturbances.

Perfectly healthy people wont get either of this. But the problem is that one in four adults experiences one or more severe mental crises in their lifetime and you can only be reasonably assured you never had one, but are -never- sure whether one is on its way.

Well lets throw some stuff in the blender to get some idea. Lets scratch sex, race, age, social enviroment, genetic predisposition and those things and make a very homogenous guesstimate.

If assumed the crisis is associated with a 5 year aura of either susceptibility plus chance of relapse, you scratch the unlikely young and old your average life can be chopped in 10 chunks of 5 years each.

If you downplay the true figure you can assume one in four people has one chunk of higher risk in his lifetime.
So one in fourty chunks carries significant risk.

This means that over one in fourty people is at risk of activating or aggrevating a pre-existing mental problem they may not be aware of which is quite a stiff number, but if you forget the medical words and state that "one in fourty people who'll take shrooms for a time will have a horrible misadventure that makes them feel like shit for quite some time after" I say that would be conservative.

So the problem is you likely wont know there even -is- a problem until you run into it, and the most effective way to run into something you can't handle is by being ill-informed, less prepared, on a higher dose, without a guide.

Ten bees can sting the shite out of me and it will be quite painful, I will likely add a whole new chapter to the Book of Psalms :grin: but that'll be that. For someone with bee allergy even a single sting is an acute, dangerous medical emergency.
How can you know you're allergic to bees until you're stung?


Many people just cannot cope with intense experiences involving loss of control and Ego Death is one of the purest forms thereof.

If you fear losing control, or feel you have -reasons- to fear losing control, you may likely try to fight Ego Death with all your might, which causes extreme stress and anxiety.

Unfortunately some people will react to any kind of extreme anxiety and stress with traumatic reactions, a nervous breakdown or even strong activation of their mental illness. Like the sarge sez: "when you lose it you're lost until you find it again."



This is where the Benzo's come in. Hardicus mistakingly assumes they will put you on your ass and that's that :grin:
Nope: Indeed Benzo's can abort a trip.. but only a trip that is relatively uneventful

If you got generic severe anxiety (almost all bad trips are generic) then indeed its good riddance, in fact the typical response is trippers whining they're too sober all of a sudden :evil:

But if the anxiey is a side effect of deep inner processes the effect is radically different. Then the Benzo's will only take some of the fears away but you stay on-topic: you -have to deal with it- and the Benzo's will help you do that by taking the excess fear down a notch.

Ego Death is a spiritual process. A psychedelic may activate its onset, but it's one of your higher functions. Most people confuse Ego Death with the Ego Dissolution of "Triplevel 5" but it stands apart from it.

Ego Dissolution is surrendering to the loss of the Any & All and having your "you" melt away. This is unbelievably intense but some people "routinely" :blush: do this for years on end in level 5 trips.
You will not enter Ego Dissolution at K-Mart, but can be vividly remembered of it.

Ego Death however is in essence an Ego Dissolution but with a major difference: Ego Death means you have to come to terms with every instance of hurt, pain and fear of your entire life, step by step, and culminates in a final symbolic death-and-rebirth associated with non-negotiable surrender to your worst pains and fears.

Once past that darkest hour you're welcomed into the rest of your life: you have left the past behind you, relived and learned from it, often feel lastingly spiritually cleansed and most significantly: you will likely have many instances of Ego Dissolution should you trip, but the distinctive Ego Death features (reliving your life's experiences and Death & Rebirth processes) are behind you and will never return.

All people who've experienced Ego Death have experienced Ego Dissolution, but many who have ample experience with Ego Dissolution
haven't started the process of Ego Death yet.

Dr. Stanislav Grof (genius psychedelic therapist) describes the Ego Death process in his must-read book LSD Psychotherapy as generally taking (well) over a dozen subsequent high-dose LSD sessions with the time between sessions usually spent under strong influence of associated death/rebirth themes which differentiates the one-time process of Ego Death from the ongoing Ego Dissolutions high doses can provide for those capable of learning how to do this.


*pfffffff!* :blush:  Bottom Line: Benzos are risk-carrying drugs but they should be present pre-dosed in every tripper's pocket as they can mean the difference between succeeding in taking a major psychological hurdle, perhaps ride it out and hang on, or coming down into problems that do not cease with the drug effect.

Even if there would be a real and genuine "copout pill" I would suggest that "the Blue Pill" be present in the tripgroup.
But Benzo's arent. They take the trip away if its generic, but will just help you cope with the stress and fear when the "bad trip" is all about really important things.

Any doctor will prescribe his average patient a couple of Benzo pills if he's plagued by rare bouts of stress leading to insomnia. The 10 pills a year routinely prescribed for occasional use would pose no addiction risks and in fact prescribing a tripper a single
strip of Benzo's is medically completely justifiable for any non-political doctor... Most docs are politicians tho.

I do not advocate use of drugs, especially hard drugs, but should a tripper be offered a big Klonopin, Roofie or Xanax by a trusted FOAF
I'd rather see him buy a single tab for that very special emergency he might experience or witness then let him walk away.


.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Asante]
    #2792511 - 06/14/04 03:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If you think comparing high dose tripping to getting hooked & hoisted India style is thats your problem.





How is that my problem ? I was merely expressing that I thought you were being a bit melodramatic.

On a day when I'm feeling mentally or physically stressed, if forced to choose I might opt for the steel hooks rather than a quad of sacrament. Believe me, I agree that the choice to dose is a serious one.

I guess the reason I rolled my eyes is because your words might possibly cause some pre-trip anxiety for others and I simply wanted to indicate that generally, a person will come out on the other side of a 1/4oz trip OK. I've had one distinct ego death experience on 7 grams. It was the most intense drug experience Ive ever had, but it was also, in some ways, one of the easiest to deal with simply because it was so overwhelming I had no choice but to surrender.

I think that a half-eight is potentially more dangerous than a quarter, precisely because the smaller dose might leave you suspended in a state of ego dissolution which certainly can linger beyond the drug's effects, whereas a quarter is more likely to compell you beyond the resistance of your ego through to a glorious and refreshing rebirth.

Good to see you on the boards btw WS.


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2792517 - 06/14/04 03:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I never had the overheating problem, but then again I've only had one high-dose trip.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Viveka]
    #2792582 - 06/14/04 03:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

EvilEye? said:

I think that a half-eight is potentially more dangerous than a quarter, precisely because the smaller dose might leave you suspended in a state of ego dissolution which certainly can linger beyond the drug's effects, whereas a quarter is more likely to compell you beyond the resistance of your ego through to a glorious and refreshing rebirth.





I disagree, the duration is the biggest problem, while the half-eight usually is mild euphoric with almost no associated physical problems, the full quarter is full euphoric to hellish with major phsyical and mental changes


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2793123 - 06/14/04 07:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Physicians (and those that know what's up as far as psychedelics, even) often give things like Thorazine to help "abort" bad experiences... However, this cure can often be worse than the malady itself. Some prefer to keep this stuff on hand, most don't. Choose WISELY.


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: jonneill]
    #2793147 - 06/14/04 07:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

no I would not recomend that at all, belive me, nasty stuff


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: jonneill]
    #2793204 - 06/14/04 08:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Thorazine.. it shouldnt be given anymore.


When pharms really are needed.. Old-fashioned hostile pharming would be to hammer you with a huge dose of antipsychotic like 150+mg Thorazine or 15+mg Haloperidol in every instance which is a nightmare even without a "bad trip".
A modern, less-invasive low-dose approach could be:


For severe in-trip anxiolytic effects: Benzodiazepines, preferably long-acting. Example: Klonopin 0.5-1mg, Valium 10-20mg or Rohypnol 1-2mg. In Dutch emergency medicine Benzodiazepines are the #1 medicines in emergency room treatment of bad trips.

For post-trip hypnosedation to facilitate direly needed sleep: 25mg Promethazine, a sedative anti-allergic.

In the case of truely unworkable post-trip inner chaos: Haloperidol, 1-4mg or in case of post-trip psychosis 2-6mg. This limits the occurrence of side effects favorably compared to vast doses.

Low doses of anti-anxiety medicines combined with low to moderate dosed non-sedating antipsychotics are superior to a vast dose of antipsychotic in efficiency, side effects and patient acceptability.


The LSD therapist Stanislav Grof considered bad trip-countering with Thorazine to be both cruel and ineffective. This was 1980.

Thorazine ought to be an artefact of the past, not a present-day treatment of most of its former indications.
It has no place in modern treatment of bad trips.


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: jonneill]
    #2793232 - 06/14/04 08:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

imagine being paralized and still tripping


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Asante]
    #2793383 - 06/15/04 12:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
This is where the Benzo's come in. Hardicus mistakingly assumes they will put you on your ass and that's that :grin:
Nope: Indeed Benzo's can abort a trip.. but only a trip that is relatively uneventful



Ah ok, I just kind of assumed that the benzos would be just as powerful as ever. I know 1 xanax will knock me the fuck out when i'm straight, I figured it would be just as strong on a mushroom trip, but i've never tried it personally.


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Hardicus]
    #2793504 - 06/15/04 12:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Hardicus said:
Ah ok, I just kind of assumed that the benzos would be just as powerful as ever. I know 1 xanax will knock me the fuck out when i'm straight, I figured it would be just as strong on a mushroom trip, but i've never tried it personally.




Just think of it as more counteracting then what its like when you take it sober. You still get the benzo feel but its nowhere on the same caliber as if you take the benzo while not trippin.


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2819633 - 06/23/04 02:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"change your setting, lighting, music." I agree with that statement 100%. Also, taking someones mind off what's happening can help, too. I don't think keeping pills around while tripping is a great idea, someone in that fucked a mindset may be just as likely to down the bottle to end the trip as take 1 or 2 to calm down. And sometimes you learn from your "bad trips" as much as your good ones. "You buy the ticket, you take the ride." If your worried enough about the possibility of a bad trip that your gonna pack meds "just in case," your setting yourself up for the fall. If your that worried and lacking confidence of a good time, don't take anything in the first place or stick to 1 and 2 gram (or equivalent) doses. If your worried about the rollercoasters, stick to the teacup ride!


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: kitsune]
    #2819696 - 06/23/04 02:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I never said have the whole bottle, and as stated before, it isnt a ride of just the mind, its a ride of the whole body.


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Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: Redo]
    #2820953 - 06/23/04 02:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Whenever I'm tripping really hard and need to escape whatever may be freaking me out.. I just stick my copy of Dark Side of the Moon into my discman, use my best headphones, go into a bathroom or dimly lit room ALONE and .. well, yeah. I listen to it.

It helps, I swear. "Breathe" would chill anyone out.


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Invisiblehawk
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 275
Re: High dose tripping essentials [Re: gnrm23]
    #2821747 - 06/23/04 06:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Just a question does NIACINAMIDE have any effect on Ayahuasca?


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