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OfflineEkstaza
stranger than most
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Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2637657 - 05/04/04 04:41 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I decided to read up a bit to make sure that I was correct on how Israel was formed. And I was right. They were given land that did not belong to just one religion and then the people of the region started to get pissed. Why wouldn't they? Their methods of fighting are wrong but they do have a legitimate grievance.

It was wrong to try and separate out a people in order for them to have a nation of one religion and not be persicuted. Here's a quote from my search,"Paradoxically, the idea of a Jewish state was also supported for antisemitic reasons". Tolerance should have been the focus instead of, "where can we stick these people out of the way"

In any case, Israel is just as bad as the terrorist. They just have popular support.

Here's a timeline to Israel's history.
http://www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2637834 - 05/04/04 05:19 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

In any case, Israel is just as bad as the terrorist. They just have popular support.



And you're right. At least up until the scumbag homicide bombers started. Then the bombers and the Palastinian leaders become the Worse of the two.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
enthusiast
Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2638383 - 05/04/04 07:28 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ekstaza said:
I decided to read up a bit to make sure that I was correct on how Israel was formed. And I was right. They were given land that did not belong to just one religion and then the people of the region started to get pissed. Why wouldn't they? Their methods of fighting are wrong but they do have a legitimate grievance.




None of these nations existed as they were. The nation that is now Iraq was made up of three distinctly different tribes, the Kurds, Sunni's and Shiites. The irregularity of the British doling the land out is constant throughout that area. Are you saying that you support the genocidal campaign against the Kurds by Iraq because they were given land that doesn't belong to just one religion? They don't have any more of a 'legitimate grievance' than Iraq did when it tried to take over Kuwait. Remember how they wanted the ground that used to be theres? Did you support that?

Quote:


It was wrong to try and separate out a people in order for them to have a nation of one religion and not be persicuted. Here's a quote from my search,"Paradoxically, the idea of a Jewish state was also supported for antisemitic reasons". Tolerance should have been the focus instead of, "where can we stick these people out of the way"




The Jews wanted their own land, European anti-Semites wanted them out of their hair. Works for both.
Quote:


In any case, Israel is just as bad as the terrorist. They just have popular support.




Israel has the same right to exist that Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and the other nations that the British made do. NONE of these nations existed before WWII. The British, the legitamite owners of the land after destroying the previous occupying force, doled it out as they desired. If you think that Iraq has a "Right to exist", then so does Israel.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2640631 - 05/05/04 06:09 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Jews wanted their own land, European anti-Semites wanted them out of their hair. Works for both.




So because it was in the interest of alot of Europeans to go and move into Arab lands it was alright?


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2641194 - 05/05/04 10:55 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

The Jews wanted their own land, European anti-Semites wanted them out of their hair. Works for both.





So because it was in the interest of alot of Europeans to go and move into Arab lands it was alright?




Yeah, it saved money on gas chambers and synagogue burnings.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2641258 - 05/05/04 11:11 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

None of these nations existed as they were.

What nation does? Do you think America has always consisted of white men?

The Jews wanted their own land, European anti-Semites wanted them out of their hair. Works for both.

You call the situation in Israel "working"? Are you serious? Why didn't America offer them some of their land?

Israel has the same right to exist that Iraq

ALONGSIDE PALESTINE!


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2641265 - 05/05/04 11:15 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, it saved money on gas chambers and synagogue burnings.

And of course giving them land in America instead of taking it from the arabs would have saved all the problems they've got now...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2641474 - 05/05/04 11:55 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe you weren't aware, but more Jews actually immigrated to the US than Israel.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2641488 - 05/05/04 11:59 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

So why not simply give them their own land and save all the trouble with the arabs?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2641514 - 05/05/04 12:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I feel like a broken record: the Jews never took any land from the Arabs until the Arabs tried to invade them. The British gave 80% of Palestine to the Arabs under Jordan, and the other half of what was left to the Palestinian State. Israel barely got any of it at all.
Not only that, but when Zionism started there were only several hundred thousand people living in that entire area (Israel/Palestine/Jordan). Most were mediteranian farmers or Beduin Arabs. These people ended up becomming citizens of Israel or Jordan.
The majority of Arabs living in the land at the time of Israeli Independence in 1948 were immigrants from other Arab countries (about 700,000 of them compared to 500,000 Jews). They actually immigrated at the same time and in greater numbers than the Zionists but nobody complains about them stealing Druz or Beduin land. What is ridiculous is that simply by their ethnicity people assume that they were indigenous.
If the Jews have no right to be in Palestine neither do most of the Arabs.

Also, the idea that Israel took land from the Arabs is a little silly when 20% of Israel's population IS Arab. Those Arabs enjoy more rights and liberties in Israel than in any other middle eastern nation.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2641996 - 05/05/04 02:30 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The British gave 80% of Palestine to the Arabs under Jordan




Yeah and that had sbsolutely nothing to do with the Jews righht? lol.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
enthusiast
Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2642273 - 05/05/04 04:07 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I totally agree with what d_s said here, but I'm going to interject what I think SS will say when he reads it, and nip his arguments in the bud.
Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
I do not have time to respond to the rest of your allegations but I think this one has a simple answer. Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel and has murdered hundreds of Israeli civilians and soldiers. Hamas is at war with Israel and therefore Hamas leaders and operatives are combatants under the rules of engagement and legitimate targets. Hamas is engage in a guerrilla campaign against Israel and Israel has a right to fight back. It is not an assasination but a military counter-attack.




He'll probably say something about the Articles of War or the Geneva Convention stating that members of regular armed forces must wear uniforms displaying insignia, carry weapons openly, and other such things that Hamas doesn't do. I'll just pop in here and say "Well golly, didn't you say that Israelies were targets because of their military service?". I'm sure that it won't cut both ways. the US and her allies are evil imperialists and the arabs are peaceloving people.
Quote:


It seems absurd to complain about one combatant in a war to kill another that is trying to murder its civilians. There is nothing unlawful about that.



Agreed.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2642378 - 05/05/04 04:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

The British gave 80% of Palestine to the Arabs under Jordan




Yeah and that had sbsolutely nothing to do with the Jews righht? lol.




I'm not sure what you are talking about. A Jewish conspiracy to give all of Palestine to the Arabs? Sounds a little off to me...


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlineruskifile
droog

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 258
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2643834 - 05/05/04 11:14 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Churchill also said this in regards to the Middle east...

"I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilized tribes. The moral effects should be good, and it would spread a lively terror."


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(zhukov in a previous life....)

2SER FM underground radio


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: ruskifile]
    #2643893 - 05/05/04 11:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Have you ever heard Churchill's voice? That man could say whatever he wanted and it came out amazing and whimsical. If Winston told me to jump off a bridge I'd ask "how high?"


listen to him


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Offlineruskifile
droog

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 258
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #2650914 - 05/07/04 05:07 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Oh I agree...the old "fight them on the beaches" speech was pretty stirring and you're right about the note of whimsy too. And a damn quick wit which is still quoted 60 years later...can't see too many politicians today who will make that  :rolleyes: unless for idiocy lol


--------------------
(zhukov in a previous life....)

2SER FM underground radio


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #2651186 - 05/07/04 06:25 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If Winston told me to jump off a bridge I'd ask "how high?"





Surely that would depend on the bridge winnie asked you to jump off, not some personal preference of old winnies!!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
enthusiast
Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2653377 - 05/08/04 12:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
What nation does? Do you think America has always consisted of white men?




I'm shocked that you missed the point. The legitamacy of Israel is always called into question, but the legitamacy of, say, Iraq or Iran isn't. Why? The same force lead to the existance of all of these nations, only one has a UN charter.
Quote:


The Jews wanted their own land, European anti-Semites wanted them out of their hair. Works for both.
You call the situation in Israel "working"? Are you serious? Why didn't America offer them some of their land?




I think that the basic premise works for the Israelites and the Europeans. Why doesn't Saudi Arabia offer the Palestineans some of their land?
Quote:


ALONGSIDE PALESTINE!




Where have I ever said different?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why not the UK? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2656901 - 05/09/04 01:33 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The legitamacy of Israel is always called into question

Not really. It's the problem of Palestine.

Why doesn't Saudi Arabia offer the Palestineans some of their land?

Funnily enough I remember someone else having this exact same idea..

Posted by TOYK:


Quote:

So why don't you recommend that Saudi Arabia give a big chunk oftheir barren desert land to the " palestineans", and let the Jews have the land that has been theirs historically for thousands of years?





--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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