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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Why not the UK?
    #2630926 - 05/03/04 09:30 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It seems to me that the US is seen as 'the enemy' in the middle east, when the main source of their problems comes from the British doling out land and creating countries after WWI and WWII. The three ethnicities that make up Iraq, for example, were forced to live as one nation. Transjordan being broken up into Israel and Jordan is the root of the middle easts hatred of the west. Why is it that America is such a big target, and the UK isn't?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2630959 - 05/03/04 09:43 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Good question. Apparently though the British culture was highly respected in Iraq and they are quite fond of us. Perhaps we showed them some respect while we colonised them? I dont know. But I bet the fact that we havent blindly supported Israel for 50 years has a large part to play in it.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2631021 - 05/03/04 10:02 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It could be that we're not seen as the imperialist power we once were (although recent events may change this perception if it exists). Take a look at this list of countries that used to be part of the British Empire:

Quote:

http://singapore.asinah.net/en/wikipedia/b/br/british_empire.html

At its height, the British Empire consisted of the following territory -

Africa

* Bechuanaland
* British Togoland
* Cameroon
* Gold Coast
* Egypt
* Kenya
* Nigeria
* Northern Rhodesia
* Sierra Leone
* Somaliland
* South Africa
* Southern Rhodesia
* South West Africa
* Sudan
* Tanganyika
* Uganda

The Americas and Atlantic

* Ascension Island
* British Guiana
* British Honduras
* Canada
* Falkland Islands
* Newfoundland
* West Indies
o Anguilla
o Antigua and Barbuda
o Bahamas
o Barbados
o Bermuda
o British Virgin Islands
o Cayman Islands
o Dominica
o Grenada
o Jamaica
o Montserrat
o Saint Kitts and Nevis
o Saint Lucia
o Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
o Trinidad and Tobago
o Turks and Caicos Islands
* St Helena
* Tristan da Cunha
* South Georgia

Antarctica

* British Antarctic Territory

Asia

* Aden
* Bhutan
* British New Guinea
* Brunei
* Burma
* Ceylon
* Hong Kong
* India
* Iraq
* Kuwait
* Malaya
* Maldives
* Palestine
* Nepal
* North Borneo
* Oman
* Qatar
* Sarawak
* Singapore
* Transjordan
* Trucial States

Europe

* Cyprus
* Gibraltar
* Malta
* United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland

Pacific

* Australia
* Ellice Islands
* Fiji
* Gilbert Islands
* Nauru
* New Zealand
* Pitcairn
* Solomon Islands
* Tonga




Compare that to what we have now:

Quote:

Remaining Dependent Territories

Now only a few small territories remain under British administration, mostly for reasons of perceived insufficiency as sovereign states. The last remaining Dependent Territories are:

Territories possessing substantial self-government

* Anguilla
* Bermuda
* British Virgin Islands
* Cayman Islands
* Gibraltar
* Montserrat
* Turks and Caicos Islands

Other territories

* British Antarctic Territory
* British Indian Ocean Territory
* Falkland Islands
* Pitcairn Island
* Saint Helena
* South Georgia & South Sandwich Islands




--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2631039 - 05/03/04 10:08 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Many Palestinians to this day still do not forgive the British for the Balfour Declaration. However, the reason the US is a bigger target is because the US is now the top provider of military aid to Israel, and is much more reluctant than any other nation to denounce Israeli war crimes. The fact is that without US aid, Israel could not get away with what it does to the Palestinians, and they would be forced to either negotiate or face annihilation.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2631287 - 05/03/04 11:44 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The Palestinians don't negotiate and Israel faces annihilation now. Silversoul, for whatever reason, wants to see Israel eradicated. The British did a very good job of laying and then handing off this turd to the rest of the world. Thanks alot limey pricks.

Look these fucking dirtballs hate us because we have more fun than them. We live, in their eyes, depraved lives of selfish excess, without the proper sacrifices to god and in greater wealth and ease than they can even imagine. We appear to them to be rewarded for sticking our thumbs in god's eye. Some people here cite our relative great wealth as an indication that we are being rewarded for doing god's work. They are both idiots. This shit is all about god and wealth and the UK isn't as wealthy and powerful as we are


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2631322 - 05/03/04 11:58 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The Palestinians don't negotiate and Israel faces annihilation now.



There are plenty of Palestinians willing to negotiate. In fact, the majority do. It's just a small handful of extremists that are making negotiation impossible.

Quote:

Silversoul, for whatever reason, wants to see Israel eradicated.



zappaisgod, for some reason, wants to see the Palestinians wiped out. What's that you say? Is that untrue? So is your allegation against me. Can we please just stick to the truth instead of slander?

Quote:

Look these fucking dirtballs hate us because we have more fun than them.



Well, I suppose that's a shortcut to thinking.

Quote:

We live, in their eyes, depraved lives of selfish excess, without the proper sacrifices to god and in greater wealth and ease than they can even imagine.



Maybe so, but so do many European nations who aren't being targeted.

Quote:

We appear to them to be rewarded for sticking our thumbs in god's eye. Some people here cite our relative great wealth as an indication that we are being rewarded for doing god's work. They are both idiots.



Finally something we agree on.

Quote:

This shit is all about god and wealth and the UK isn't as wealthy and powerful as we are



Then why weren't they targeting Germany and Japan during the peaks of their economies?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2631357 - 05/03/04 12:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The Palestinians don't negotiate and Israel faces annihilation now. Silversoul, for whatever reason, wants to see Israel eradicated.




Substitute "The United States" where SilverSoul7 is and you have the reason why the US treats Israel the way it does. Our politicians are so damned worried about being seen as anti-semitic that they will turn a blind eye to what Israel does. It's same thing were getting with retaliations against terrorist fighters in Iraq. They fight from Mosques and then we're expected to not offend Islam by blowing them up inside the Mosque. The Israelis are quick to scream anti-semitism when anyone opposes them.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2631423 - 05/03/04 12:33 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It's not slander to say that by supporting a Palestinian right of return you are advocating the eradication of Israel as a homeland for the Jews. I'm not so sure that you are correct when you state that most Palestinians favor a negotiated settlement with the Israelis either. You can ascribe their hardline position to extremists if you want but the extremists seem to be running the show for them and they have to have quite a bit of support to have such power.

Germany and Japan are economic gnats compared to us. Further, our culture is in everybody's face all the time because we so dominate the entertainment media. We are the symbol of depravity to them. Japan has pretty much kept out of the global policy debate for 60 years because we protect them and Germany has and should keep its fucking mouth shut about anything having to do with Jews for obvious reasons.

I can't believe anyone here actually sympathizes with these people. They want to force Islam on everyone. No booze, no shrooms, no porn, no video games, hardly any movies or TV, no debate, no arguing with the imam, women are chattel, forced prayer 6 times a day. They are the worst fascists the world has ever seen


--------------------


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2631476 - 05/03/04 12:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It's not slander to say that by supporting a Palestinian right of return you are advocating the eradication of Israel as a homeland for the Jews.



Who said I support a Palestinian right of return? Although ideally they should be allowed to return home, I recognize that realistically, it's just not feasible.

Quote:

Germany and Japan are economic gnats compared to us. Further, our culture is in everybody's face all the time because we so dominate the entertainment media. We are the symbol of depravity to them. Japan has pretty much kept out of the global policy debate for 60 years because we protect them and Germany has and should keep its fucking mouth shut about anything having to do with Jews for obvious reasons.



It's true that we do dominate the media, and MOST people in the Muslim world don't really mind. A few see it as cultural imperialism, but they could not muster up support for their cause if it wasn't for our economic imperialism.

Quote:

I can't believe anyone here actually sympathizes with these people. They want to force Islam on everyone. No booze, no shrooms, no porn, no video games, hardly any movies or TV, no debate, no arguing with the imam, women are chattel, forced prayer 6 times a day. They are the worst fascists the world has ever seen



What do you mean by "these people"? Muslim extremists or Muslims in general? Most Muslims aren't out there trying to convert everyone anymore than Christians are. BTW, Muslims pray 5 times a day, not 6, and Christians and Jews in those countries don't have to participate in it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2631607 - 05/03/04 01:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> Most Muslims aren't out there trying to convert everyone anymore than Christians are.

I donno about that. I have had more Christians banging on my door at 7:30am on a Saturday morning, trying to convert me to Christianity, than I can count using all of my fingers and toes. I have never once had a Muslim banging on my door at anytime of the day or night trying to convert me to Islam...

In fact, I have never once had anybody from any religion other than Christianity try to convert me to their faith.


--------------------
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Seuss]
    #2631640 - 05/03/04 01:52 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've been in a couple chatrooms where some Muslim came on wanted to show everyone the light by converting us to Islam, but they usually didn't stay very long.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2631717 - 05/03/04 02:12 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Good question. Apparently though the British culture was highly respected in Iraq and they are quite fond of us. Perhaps we showed them some respect while we colonised them? I dont know. But I bet the fact that we havent blindly supported Israel for 50 years has a large part to play in it.




The US has supported Israel precisecely because it IS NOT blinded. Since day one Israel, a legitimate state recognized by the UN, has been subject to multiple defensive wars, and thousands of brutal terrorist attacks. The PLO (now the Palestinian Authority) said until recently in its charter that their goal was to destroy Israel. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PLFP, Al Aksa, all of these groups state their goal is not a two state solution but the complete destruction of Israel. A poll taken in 2002 showed that 80-87% of the Palestinian public supported further suicide bombings.

Now how is Israel supposed to respond? After offering Egypt, Jordan, and on multiple occasions the Palestinians the territorial land back, and after several rounds of peace talks that were violated immediately by Yassar Arafat, what is Israel supposed to do? Shrivel up and die? If you actually knew the details and history of the situation you would see that it is the Palestinians and Arabs who have been threatening genocide, and that Israel has consistently supported peaceful solutions and been betrayed each time. Every time Israel defends itself by killing terrorist militants like Rantisis they are accused of human rights abuses. What a crock of shit! You might as well accuse the US of human rights abuses if we ever kill bin Laden.

The facts are Israel is NOT the one commiting atrocities by strapping bombs to gullible kids in order to murder innocent people. They have been trying hard to defend themselves without violating Palestinian rights. I think the people that are constantly accusing Israel of human rights violations have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
They are the ones blindly accepting the propaganda of terrorists and militants.

Sure Arabs hate us for that, but that is just because they are a bunch of brainwashed racist bigots. We shouldn't have to sympathize with terrorists so Arabs will like us.


--------------------
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2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2631749 - 05/03/04 02:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Oh so the US is innocent, always has been innocent and has always acted in the interests of peace?

Thanks for pointing that out.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2631754 - 05/03/04 02:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Oh sorry I forgot to award you the prize for the most moronic and pathetic statement I have read in a long while:

"Sure Arabs hate us for that, but that is just because they are a bunch of brainwashed racist bigots. "

Were you trying to ironcially portray a moron here, or are you just a...

This ones a cracker too, who needs reality we can just make it up as we go along:

"They have been trying hard to defend themselves without violating Palestinian rights. "

How does bulldozing the houses of innocent people defend the Israelis without violating the rights of the palestinians. That is a simple question, please try and answer though I would bet money that you cant.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Edited by GazzBut (05/03/04 02:26 PM)


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2631796 - 05/03/04 02:30 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

That's a good response.  My response to your response is as follows: Go to the deepest part of your being and make the commitment to grow through joy rather than through pain and struggle in this area.  :mrt:


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2631807 - 05/03/04 02:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Good question. Apparently though the British culture was highly respected in Iraq and they are quite fond of us. Perhaps we showed them some respect while we colonised them? I dont know. But I bet the fact that we havent blindly supported Israel for 50 years has a large part to play in it.




You doled out what was and what was not Israel. If not for this, Israel wouldn't exist. You doled out one nation, called Iraq, to three tribes that had been at war for centuries and expected it to work. Etc, etc. etc. Most of the regions strife really comes from this arbitrary assignmant of land to nations. That sounds like a pretty good amount of support to me on the Israel issue. Also, didn't the US issue strong warnings against Israel recently for killing terrorist leaders?


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2631821 - 05/03/04 02:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
There are plenty of Palestinians willing to negotiate. In fact, the majority do. It's just a small handful of extremists that are making negotiation impossible.




silversoul, I really respect your intelligence and your insight. It seems that you've recently had a change and shifted a little bit more to the right, which shows your open minded ness. Be that as it may, you've said numerous times that it's a "handful" of extremists that are making negotiation impossile, and that the majority of the Palestineans want negotiation. Do you have any source for that? I seem to remember these peace-loving negotiators-to-be running through the streets passing out candy on 9/11 while burning American flags. I just don't think you are percieving this situation correctly.
Quote:


zappaisgod, for some reason, wants to see the Palestinians wiped out. What's that you say? Is that untrue? So is your allegation against me. Can we please just stick to the truth instead of slander?




I think that I'd say that you seem to have more of an anti-Israel stance than more "conservative" thinkers such as myself and others here.
Quote:


Well, I suppose that's a shortcut to thinking.




As much as I detest generalizations, I think that they do hate the "West" because we simply live better lives. Their leaders might put some sort of religious spin on it, but thats what IT hink it comes down to. What reasons do you suggest? Our support of Israel returning to the borders that the brits gave them?
Quote:


Maybe so, but so do many European nations who aren't being targeted.




We are the biggest of said enemies. What do you think caused Spain to be attacked, instead of the US again, or instead of numerous other nations?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2631823 - 05/03/04 02:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Oh sorry I forgot to award you the prize for the most moronic and pathetic statement I have read in a long while:

"Sure Arabs hate us for that, but that is just because they are a bunch of brainwashed racist bigots. "

Were you trying to ironcially portray a moron here, or are you just a...

This ones a cracker too, who needs reality we can just make it up as we go along:

"They have been trying hard to defend themselves without violating Palestinian rights. "

How does bulldozing the houses of innocent people defend the Israelis without violating the rights of the palestinians. That is a simple question, please try and answer though I would bet money that you cant.




The responsibility of house bulldozing falls on the terrorists who put that burden on their family. It is a very effect counter-terrorist method in that it makes terrorists directly responsible for the suffering of their own family.

You may find my langauge too crass but Arabs really do hate us because they want to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. They believe that Israel is behind all suffering in the world and that murdering Israelis is the path to heaven. Even today Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia said he was "95% sure" that the terrorist act yesterday was te work of the Zionists. Many Muslims still belive Mossad was behind 9/11, and the terror attacks in Iraq. It's all the work of Zionist Jews who secretly control the world and the US government.
In an official Saudi Arabian state newspaper they printed an article about how Jews make Passover bread from the blood of children. In Syria TV stations are showing a miniseries called "Diaspora" in which Rabbis conduct human sacrifices by pouring hot lead down the throats of victims and use human blood for passover bread. Nearly everyday Islamic clerics throughout the world are calling for death to Jews and Americans.
If that is not brainwashed or bigoted please correct me.

This is not the fault of the US for supporting Israel, but the fault of the Arabs for being brainwashed by their state media and fostering genocidal hate towards the Jews.


--------------------
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2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2631837 - 05/03/04 02:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Oh sorry I forgot to award you the prize for the most moronic and pathetic statement I have read in a long while:

"Sure Arabs hate us for that, but that is just because they are a bunch of brainwashed racist bigots. "




Zappa, if you say something about the majority of the USA being brainwashed, racist bigots, it's ok. But don't dare make generalizations about other nations. Remember, we all hate the USA, so it's ok. You didn't read the Liberal Forum Rules, did you? Tskt sk.
Quote:


This ones a cracker too, who needs reality we can just make it up as we go along:
"They have been trying hard to defend themselves without violating Palestinian rights. "




So, in the past, when arab nations have tried to get a peace with Israel, Israel hasn't allowed it. Right? And in the past when nations offer the olive branch to Israel, she just says "Fuck no, we're keeping your terroritory", right? Might want to ask Egypt and Jordan about that one.
Quote:

How does bulldozing the houses of innocent people defend the Israelis without violating the rights of the palestinians. That is a simple question, please try and answer though I would bet money that you cant.



They conquered it, they can do whatever the fuck they want with it. If the Arabs want it back, they could do like Jordan, Syria and Egypt did. If the Arabs want to push teh zionists into the sea, they'll have to try a lot harder.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why not the UK? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2631859 - 05/03/04 02:52 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
The US has supported Israel precisecely because it IS NOT blinded. Since day one Israel, a legitimate state recognized by the UN, has been subject to multiple defensive wars, and thousands of brutal terrorist attacks.



The circumstances surrounding the creation of the state of Israel are hardly what I would call legitimate. We're talking about people who never lived there suddenly migrating over and taking land that's not theirs, then having a colonial power say that these newcomers are the rightful owners of the land while the people who were there before are forced out of their homes. The reason they had to fight a defensive war is because a bunch of Arab nations wanted to take back what was rightfully Arab land.

Quote:

The PLO (now the Palestinian Authority) said until recently in its charter that their goal was to destroy Israel. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PLFP, Al Aksa, all of these groups state their goal is not a two state solution but the complete destruction of Israel. A poll taken in 2002 showed that 80-87% of the Palestinian public supported further suicide bombings.



I guess you could consider 1988 to be recent, but that was still 5 years before the Isreali government agreed to negotiate with Arafat, and all hopes of that were killed when Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish extremist. It wasn't again until 2000 that Israel tried negotiating with Arafat, and after they failed to come to an agreement, Arafat lost his credibility with the Palestinian people, and they instead turned to religious extremists like Hammas. The reason they support suicide bombings is because it is their only weapon of defense against one of the largest armies in the Middle East. While it is true that these terrorist groups want the complete destruction of Israel, the majority of Palestinians support a two-state solution.

Quote:

Now how is Israel supposed to respond? After offering Egypt, Jordan, and on multiple occasions the Palestinians the territorial land back, and after several rounds of peace talks that were violated immediately by Yassar Arafat, what is Israel supposed to do? Shrivel up and die? If you actually knew the details and history of the situation you would see that it is the Palestinians and Arabs who have been threatening genocide, and that Israel has consistently supported peaceful solutions and been betrayed each time.



Bullshit. I don't consider bulldozing houses and holding people prisoner without any charges to be a peaceful solution. The most promising peace accord was killed not by the Palestinians, but by an Israeli assassin.

Quote:

Every time Israel defends itself by killing terrorist militants like Rantisis they are accused of human rights abuses. What a crock of shit! You might as well accuse the US of human rights abuses if we ever kill bin Laden.



First of all, terrorists should not be killed without due process. Assassinations are against international law. And the human rights abuses go far beyond the killing of terrorists. There's the illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It's the bulldozing of Palestinian homes. There's the unlawful imprisonment of Palestians without charging them with a crime. There's the shutting down of universities and infrastructure, making it impossible for Palestinians to go about their daily routine. There's the destruction of crops in the Gaza Strip. There's the denial of sovereignty in their own land. To say that Israel is innocent--that is a crock of shit.

Quote:

The facts are Israel is NOT the one commiting atrocities by strapping bombs to gullible kids in order to murder innocent people. They have been trying hard to defend themselves without violating Palestinian rights. I think the people that are constantly accusing Israel of human rights violations have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. They are the ones blindly accepting the propaganda of terrorists and militants.



Sounds like you've been swallowing some propaganda yourself if you don't think Israel has been violating Palestinian rights.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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