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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26198991 -

thealienthatategod said:
redgreenvines said:
the structure of your mind and consciousness is not the same structure as that of the universe
but it is a subset of the latter


so do you think the universe itself has consciousness?

and if so, what is the primary difference between its consciousness and ours?


the universe houses billions of conscious creatures but has no consciousness per-se itself separate from the beings living within it. It is not an entity.

the minds of each being, however, are able to sense aspects of the universe, both near and far, and can act accordingly - this multi-being-choreography can seem to be a co-ordinated activity, lending to the illusion of one larger mind at play, but that is the work of the mind of the viewer, not the imagined mind of the universe at large which has no mechanism to create or recall associative memories of its own.

the ability to add experiences to a memory system, and to recall related memories with new experiences (i.e. to have perceptions and reflections) is essential to any view of consciousness.

one could even say that if no associative memory is formed during sensation then there is no consciousness happening - experience at that point is merely events, collisions - simple physics.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26199106 -

Morel Guy said:
Meditation pretty much teaches how we project our perception.  If you are pissy it becomes obvious how projecting brings like trouble.


yeah, this is called "karma". [might as well use the term, it is older than dirt, and is a wide-ranging matrix of abstract factors of consideration, in other words, it's highly complex.]

Quote:
Changing perception has created a lot of myth.  We never really drop imagination living, just look at it's power with children.  Yet we still cannot heal or brainwash entirely.


maybe these words are just mythological as much as anything else?

who is to say that culture isn't the most real a reality can get? maybe people running solo doesn't exactly help a individual's psyche. then again, maybe a culture growing too large [into a "civilization", ie, that which we have been left with; a mish-mash of cultures under a "reign" of "sovereignty" -- right-wingers' heads would activate the automatic blinders/earmuff controls, here]. maybe with too large a culture, structures become atomized, and the [so-called] "superstructure" becomes the new myth [or metanarrative].

so where do we draw the line?

and yes, a "healing" is something that is found in all the traditions [funnily enough] -- maybe concerning [underlying the oblique "context" with which we find these older myths] a psychological trauma on a mass-scale? this could be based on fact [the continents are supposedly re-forming in the pan-continent of the earliest era, that is, at some long distant future] of some geological proportion. or it could be merely a symbology.

"brainwashing", that is another story. but this is the crux of my contentions...

is it "brainwashing" to have a culture, or a family, or just to even be an individual; where do we draw the line [in other words, is it more apt of a "human quality"? or an "innate quality"? which is preferable, even?], and why do we draw this supposed line? or do we need a line? is the family not as such "brainwashing" in the negative sense [though it instills views on a person], or is the culture[s] of the world not "brainwashing", as such, too? etc.

where did the first tremors of the first myths/symbols occur, and why? [as i've said before, the first nursery rhyme was probably pretty weird.]



Quote:
one could even say that if no associative memory is formed during sensation then there is no consciousness happening - experience at that point is merely events, collisions - simple physics.



the conscious mind doesn't have simple physics.

Edited by akira_akuma (09/20/19 11:58 AM)

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26199136 -

saved7 said:
But the human stands far outside the law imposed on his program.


a hammer is bound by the "law" that created it but is not a subset of the laws of nature that binds the both the hammer and the hammerer, computers are fancy tools that are part of the same system of laws everything else in the universe is subject to, your inability to see the connection is a learned response to not knowing how reality is formed which causes thoughts of some mysterious force being responsible

saved7 said:
This is analogous to the distinction between the physical law of the material world, and the author of that physical law.


the distiction is simply your opinion, quantum physics is beginning to teach the materialists that consciousness creates physical reality, there is no need for other causality, i know that understanding infinity and an infinite universe is difficult but the task is easier when you start with what is known instead of inventing unknowns

saved7 said:
Just as we would never expect a human programmer to be bound by the laws of his binary computer code,


once again, yes the human programmer is bound by code laws otherwise he cannot interact meaningfully with the computer, its a system and if you dont follow the code law then a computer is just a fancy rock

saved7 said:
we would not expect the author of physical law to be bound by that physical law.


an empty assertion, if the mind creates the law then it is also bound by them, but it can change the law, so it is not bound by law, this is the nature of an infinite unverse

saved7 said:
There is obviously, obviously, an intelligent mind behind the origin of the physical universe.


yes, yours, in every moment of now

saved7 said:
There is a clear distinction between being created under the physical law and being the author above the physical law.


no there is not and you havent shown one, your assertions are not evidence

saved7 said:
People here seem to really not like the idea that the universe had a beginning.  I wonder why that is.


because it is without evidence, all intelligence on the subject suggests an infinite universe


--------------------
evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil

freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26199178 -

I don't relate to the last you wrote. 

Brainwashing made sense and still makes sense in 'tribal' situations.  Karma is just another way of looking at complex nature simply.  There will always be side effects of action.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26199282 -

well, these concepts are able to be extrapolated upon much more nowadays, so, good.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26199480 -

akira_akuma said:
...the notion of consciousness being "simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain" ...


hello, this erroneous idea is at root of the problem.

consciousness is not electrical signals being interpreted by the brain, the brain does not interpret while instantaneously perceiving i.e. it is not an intermediary to a next module or to another organ or another living being.
perception is a one step matching in most cases.
Consider:
Electrical field patterns result from several contemporaneous sensory signal pulses while resonating in the cerebral cortex (and forming new memories - dendrite and axon growth occurs in the resonating synapses).
These 2-d interference patterns directly match  (the match is in the geometry of the electrical interference field) the pattern of memories which are momentarily reactivated.
this is direct associative recall not interpreted but perceived using innate pattern association. (the structure and function of the brain and how it is hooked to the senses supports this innate pattern association and resonant memory fixation)
however,
a person could struggle to perform interpretation of what they see and what they remember in terms that relate to some other task or scheme, and this process (which also uses associative infrastructure of the brain) is more complex effort laden and less instantaneous.

the brain can do both, but consciousness really only requires experiencing and perceiving - interpreting is a big extra plus.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26199600 -

indeed. well, i didn't say that the notion is [and i'm paraphrasing here] 'that which "simply [are] electrical signals interpreted, etc..." '.

i said that either way, "the hard problem of consciousness" [similarly to the "problematic of being"], is interesting from that perspective or the one i previously outlined. i never meant to imply [to you] that consciousness is "a notion [simply, electrical] signals interpreted by your brain". so you didn't need to explain this otherwise fascinating stuff, to respond to me...or did you?

i guess maybe you did!

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26199644 -

:soundsgoodman:


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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26199705 -

You lost me on that.

Yet it does seem power is an issue and what to use that for when death is looming.  It seems just to make an effort to understand and have peace woth that, is life's work.

So much of life is logistic and while I do suscribe to the reality there is far more to existance than we perceive....there is no ego in this as much as interest.  Who wouldn't be interested in survival?

Just what of us survives seems to be beyond us.  The brain can handle only so much.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26200791 -

I was trying to avoid modeling an addition of an extra step for basic consciousness, so if you got anything from my reply to a fragment of your post - great!

if I were to distill it further, the term "perceptiveness" would come close to consciousness, since it includes both memory formation and memory matching of a sensory stream.

further to that one might measure perceptiveness or the associative reactivity of a creature to come to an assessment of it's consciousness.

How to measure that would take even more skill and understanding since, some of the most conscious among us practice non-reactive meditation, which highlights another important issue.

In mind, perception, which is the unstoppable automatic recognition or instant association of like memories to current mental contents (from senses and ideas), can be surfed with equanimity by following the breath.
The mere perceptions occur, but the mind is focused on breath so as not to trip out on every distracting side trip.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26203264 -

sure, i don't disagree with you there. just like before- you know this, right? i mean, you just wanted to extrapolate from what i had written, but that's fine, as long as you're not mistaken in thinking i was endorsing that exact thing you quoted as some kind of truth; because i was actually [obviously] making a counterpoint against that notion you so delicately pointed out.

also:

relevant blog, very interesting:

https://www.minds.com/perihelion0/blog/super-memeplex-dynamics-and-their-exploits-1002989355742429184

but more so of import- i wrote this, so i can use this as a direct response....

To be honest, the insinuation of "believing fantasies" seems to be part and parcel to the human condition. I've determined, regardless of philosophic principal [or perhaps an overly sophistic principal?] that whether "God" exists or not [which is up in the air], what we can definitely deduce from what we can glean for sure, is that we have invented a lot of things, in general, to merely survive; including states of being that would, in essence, defend the tribal psyche, and so, with that you can see a definite thing- but here's what's more- we can see [being sussed as early as the wisdom literature of all the preeminent faiths] that language and the interpretation of what semioticians call "signs" [or what could be called the phenomenon of the mind and it's aggregates, that is, it's faculties, like imagination, and it's mechanical cogitations, like various reactions to stimuli], these things play a role in ancient thinking, as well as mythical cycles and poetry. You can see from the anthropological data, and ethnosociological data [which I'd prefer when studying this particular direction of the human race], that these kind of mnemonics and various representations, and also the multifarious reactions/interactions, form the quest of mankind thru a certain field of knowledge, and that knowledge can be said to be "transcendent" [wisdom] from the mere advance of the idea that we, in effect, experience ourselves subjectively, and consciousness is self-conscious of itself only insofar as it is what is is in it's existence, being.

Edited by akira_akuma (09/22/19 05:31 PM)

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26204984 -

also there is the notion of "kia" or pure perception, will, and consciousness, in certain schools of "magical" thought [cf. Austin Osman Spare]. which has been adjusted in post-Chaos magick [or so i've read in journals] to 'kiu' which, funnily enough, can be interpreted as a declension from the root 'tiu', from the Nordic rune word for ... well, "roots of the Yule tree"....

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26204992 -

akira_akuma said:
...consciousness is self-conscious of itself only insofar as it is what is is in it's existence, being.


what does this declaration mean?
it bothers me because it is the final set of words which usually would sum things up.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26232781 -

The egg, right? Whatever was right before the chicken in the evolutionary timeline laid an egg one day and then a chicken popped out of it. My uncle was there he said it was gross.


--------------------
Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defense each year, and instead spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we can explore space together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

-Bill Hicks

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Yando]
    #26232990 -

a long time ago, right.
maybe things are different now.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26242378 -

saved7 said:
We all have an inborn awareness that nature had a creator.  Nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature.  This truth is literally staring us in the face, every day, all day.....


Totally wrong.
Because some folks are uncomfortable, with paradox and mystery, they attempt to build a belief system within which they can feel safe.

But not all people, the best example, are those who practice "Don't know mind" meditation.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Don%27t+know+mind%22+meditation.&t=h_&ia=web

Psychologically  attempting to build a belief system within which they can feel safe, is roughly the same tactic used by victims of trauma and abuse to disassociate from and repress the traumatizing event(s).

Belief systems about God as creator, always attempt to repress the question every 4 year old asks : "And who created God"? One cannot imagine a beginning to time.
Those who find that the mystery of life and existence adds some charm to it, are fundamentally different from those who are unconsciously frightened of the unknown.

How are they different? One type of personality radiates imagination, openness, curiosity, flexibility and independence. The other rigidity, dependence, etc.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26243255 -

redgreenvines said:
akira_akuma said:
...consciousness is self-conscious of itself only insofar as it is what is is in it's existence, being.


what does this declaration mean?
it bothers me because it is the final set of words which usually would sum things up.


it's just an encapsulation of what experience consists of, which is what it is.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26243387 -

akira_akuma said:
consciousness is self-conscious of itself only insofar as it is what is is in it's existence, being.


Viewing 'Original Sin' as a rebellion could clarify this 'Being' as a state where the ego meets opposition. If I may wax fanciful I'll compare reality with a soup stock made from celery (speed) carrots (desire) and onions (tears). Rebellion (rebullion cubes) might intrinsically change reality back to a consistency of -No change- No haste- and -No tears- which might be inferred to be the climate before the Original Rebellion.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26243441 -

yes, in the preremptory sort of metaphysics of human thought, i'd tend to the sort of perspective you've outlined. it's the "demon-stration".

see, you've done it just now, but it's so abstruse what you've said, because of it's context, and at once, so "animistic" [brain-soup], that it's hard to address the entire point- even though you've encapsulated it.

i liken it to a nursery rhyme that never stopped trying to devour itself.

or a "craft" of some sort which needs be "parsed"- for which i have another demonstration for: i call it the 'dialectics of fuck', and it goes like this, you have two columns,

I did it | Not you
White dog|Black dog
Zoe      |        Bios
Inspiration/Survival


you see there is a sort dialectic within a dialectic [meta...] with the reference to dogs [ie, which dog can break free from it's leash is that which you feed the most] -- so there is an inherent choice [free-will].

then there are the dynamics of zoe [life] and bios [basic operation] (my reference isn't to the theory by Giorgio Agamben, which differs in it's distinction between the two forces, here. the main difference being an inverse of the aspect/notion of "zoe" is called "bare life", and "bios" is a "particular qualified life", which i put into the dynamics between the aspects of "inspiration" & "survival" as an adaptation to my model here).

then there is the aspects of survival meets inspiration- as either/or [another distinction made frequently] factors in a mode of existence; "being" then can be extrapolated as a "prison" or "suffering" without having an output for either of the above at, nor a distinct sense of it's existence; so the body adapts in some other way, usually by some actions which lead to a complex apoptosis].

then there is the aspect i've called the "i did it : not you" dichotomy, which is an adaptation of the ich-du (I–thou) and ich-es (I–it) concept of Martin Buber- which is in full reads: "i did 'it'[the action] [therefore i am the action, and therefore, ] not you."

in this dialectic i wish to evince the notion of a subjective AND objective spirit to the individual AND the collective, at once, and for all.

it's a work in progress.....

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26244136 -

this description of your work in progress reminds me of staring through an intensely wrought goblet:


does it feel familiar?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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