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InvisibleSwami
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Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers...
    #1839376 - 08/22/03 02:30 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Excerpt from this trip report on Erowid.

We as humans can answer many things. We, with our science and technology, can do very well with 'What' and 'How' and in some senses we can answer the 'Why' questions. We can learn to unravel the most profound mysteries of nature, like DNA and the formation of the cosmos. We can build tools like computers that are insanely complex. I believe that we can even travel to distant stars and spread our organic life across the galaxy. But we can never answer the most fundamental questions of all: 'Why are we here?' 'Why is there life on Earth?' 'WHY?'

Many people turn to religion to answer this question and they get an answer. Personally I don't believe in god(s) or creation. I find no solace in the make-believe answers that other human beings in the past or present have dreamt up to answer this question for other people. Of course, I don't think that everything about religion is bad or wrong. Certainly I believe in morality and social structure. What I learned from La Purga is that we as a species can put all of our most brilliant tools to work to ask the Universe 'why are we here?', but we will only get silence as a response.


I point this out as this guy travelled deeper than most and did NOT discover God at the end of the universe; merely more refined questions.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1839447 - 08/22/03 03:05 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I see the whole 'why are we here' question in kinda the same way as that whole 'who says life is fair' thing. Meaning that (generally speaking) a lot of people start out with the assumption that life should be fair or equal or whatever...but this is rarely ever the case. So who's to say it's not the same way with why we're here? Who says we even need a reason to exist in the first place? I certainly don't think we do. I mean - let's just say that there is some sort of ultimate goal 'we' are all trying to accomplish (whether that be heaven, or nirvana, or whatever) what happens when every single entitiy in existance reaches that point? Does everything stop happening? Does everything simply cease to exist from that point on? Is there a reset button that someone has to push to start the entire cycle over again? Do we just stay where we're at indefinately, and nothing ever ever ever happens again? I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer in that old 'as above, so below' thing (whatever it's technically labled as) and unless I'm completely overlooking something, I don't see a damn bit off anything that suddenly reaches some sort of ultimate goal and stops doing whatever it is that it does. Everything in life seems to run on some sort of continuous cycle: water pours down out of the clouds, and then evaporates right back up again...plants sprout from seeds, mature, produce seeds of their own, eventually die, and their seeds go on to sprout new plants...this is the way of life, it's just how these sorts of things work. So why then would anyone believe that when we zoom out to some rediculously distant point of view there's suddenly going to be something that contradicts everything that occured before it? My guess is that there are just too many people out there that don't like the idea of 'what you see is what you get', so they try to turn their world into something it's not. I'm sorry, but I don't understand that philosophy at all. What is so difficult about believing that this existance we are all a part of is infinately complex? And why would you ever even want it all to end anyways? If something continues to go on and on indefinately what more could you ever possibly want?

I...just...don't...get..it...  :oogle: 


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Offlinemikey_
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #1839452 - 08/22/03 03:09 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Everything in life seems to run on some sort of continuous cycle: water pours down out of the clouds, and then evaporates right back up again...plants sprout from seeds, mature, produce seeds of their own, eventually die, and their seeds go on to sprout new plants...this is the way of life, it's just how these sorts of things work.




maybe this is where re-incarnation kicks-in.


--------------------
The poison is the dose - Paracelsus
Let your food be medicine and your medicine be food - Hippocrates


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: mikey_]
    #1839476 - 08/22/03 03:24 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If you're saying that an ayahuasca experience is equivelant to travelling deeper than most then I would say he was looking in the wrong place for God. It is presumptuous to assume that these drug expereinces are truly spiritual in nature.

And it is definately presumptuous for the man to call these make-believe answers.

I doubt he was ever truly open-minded enough to have a spiritual experience.

It's all about faith. I hate that word and what it implies but I trully believe that if you honestly look for it you will find your evidential proof. Just don't expect it to be objective enough to share with others. It's a personal experience.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1839520 - 08/22/03 04:03 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Anecdotal.

Quote:

Excerpt from this trip report on Erowid.

We as humans can answer many things. We, with our science and technology, can do very well with 'What' and 'How' and in some senses we can answer the 'Why' questions. We can learn to unravel the most profound mysteries of nature, like DNA and the formation of the cosmos. We can build tools like computers that are insanely complex. I believe that we can even travel to distant stars and spread our organic life across the galaxy. But we can never answer the most fundamental questions of all: 'Why are we here?' 'Why is there life on Earth?' 'WHY?'

Many people turn to religion to answer this question and they get an answer. Personally I don't believe in god(s) or creation. I find no solace in the make-believe answers that other human beings in the past or present have dreamt up to answer this question for other people. Of course, I don't think that everything about religion is bad or wrong. Certainly I believe in morality and social structure. What I learned from La Purga is that we as a species can put all of our most brilliant tools to work to ask the Universe 'why are we here?', but we will only get silence as a response.

I point this out as this guy travelled deeper than most and did NOT discover God at the end of the universe; merely more refined questions.





--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Jellric]
    #1839539 - 08/22/03 04:14 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Anecdotal.

And? All info on the effects of psychedelics (except for somatic responses) is anecdotal. As it is the inner landscape, it will ALWAYS be a subjective experience.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1839573 - 08/22/03 04:41 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

No two trips are the same. Some people find god, while other people find aliens ready to give an anal probe.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1839579 - 08/22/03 04:49 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Whys does it ALWAYS have to be an alien with the anal probe? Why not Shakira?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1839592 - 08/22/03 05:07 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah lets all assume that because we are talkin in the shroomery that everyones beleives are a direct result of tripping (hallucination) therefore bollocks.

It is you who is closed minded. It is when you try to quantify answers for everything. I consider all possibilities but try not to make conclusions on them just speculation.

Swami, I am skeptical, you are ignorant. Theres a big difference.


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Offlinejono
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1839670 - 08/22/03 06:42 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe he didnt find god because there was no God to find.

Dont mind me though, Im just a buddhist


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: MindTrap]
    #1839683 - 08/22/03 07:11 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MindTrap said:
If you're saying that an ayahuasca experience is equivelant to travelling deeper than most then I would say he was looking in the wrong place for God. It is presumptuous to assume that these drug expereinces are truly spiritual in nature.




And it is presumptous to assume that these drug experiences AREN'T truly spiritual in nature...

Quote:


And it is definately presumptuous for the man to call these make-believe answers.

I doubt he was ever truly open-minded enough to have a spiritual experience.




I doubt that you are ever truly open-minded enought to have a spiritual experience, but as I don't know you, it isn't well founded for me to have those doubts, now is it? No one can say whether or not someone else had a spiritual experience, as they are not of their spirit..

Quote:


It's all about faith. I hate that word and what it implies but I trully believe that if you honestly look for it you will find your evidential proof. Just don't expect it to be objective enough to share with others. It's a personal experience.




Wait, it's a personal experience? Then how do you know if he had a spiritual experience or not? That doesn't make sense to me.. I can't believe you would truly hate a word and what it implies, but then say that that is what it "is all about":

And, is it possible to find your evidental proof if you are dishonestly looking, or if perhaps you aren't even working but sort of stumble onto it?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1839750 - 08/22/03 08:44 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

You are really funny swami, is that your evidence that God does not exist?
A Trip report from erowind?

The belief of a God is personal some choose to believe and some don't to each there own, but to try to argue it's existence is a total waste of time,(it is a mystery that can not be proved or disproved) unless the intention of this post is to provoke controversy.


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: LOBO]
    #1839819 - 08/22/03 09:41 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Theres no evidance that God(s) DOESENT(dont) exist but their is alot of evidance proving that he doesent exist the way people thought previously in history, so really unless he apears in the sky seen by everyone and all the people who didnt have time to make up their mind unto what religion to follow will die and burn in hell. God will just be a personal opinion. Getting that out of the way...

I used to question "Why, are we here" that question quickly turned into "why is there a here anyway". I mean it seems like everyone focuses on why did we pop up on this planet, personaly i think were just fongus on a rock that happeneded to be the right distance from the sun. But what really eats my brain is what are all these molecules doing just popping out of a void, why is there existance???


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1839827 - 08/22/03 09:48 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Deleted by admin


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Offlinechessrook
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1839863 - 08/22/03 10:11 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm interested in this part...

>>>>>>Certainly I believe in morality and....<<<<<<<<

Since you stated you don't believe in God, on what basis do you support an argument in favor of morality? What is your moral standard and why should anyone, including yourself, follow it? Morality by its very definition requires a standard of right and wrong. Morality implies there IS a right and wrong. I'm not arguing in favor of a God one way or another...it just cracks me up that people want to not believe in a God (whatever ultimate form) yet still want to claim a universal standard of right and wrong. Bullshit!

Be well,

'rook


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Spokesman]
    #1839874 - 08/22/03 10:17 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Spokesman writes:

I used to question "Why, are we here" that question quickly turned into "why is there a here anyway".

That is the core question cosmologists and philosophers ask, but the two questions are not identical.

The cosmologist asks it with the connotation, "By what process did existence come into existence?" Note that this question assumes facts not in evidence; i.e. that there was a time when there was no existence.

The philosopher asks it with the connotation, "For which reason does existence exist?" Note that this question also assumes facts not in evidence; i.e. that there is in fact a reason.

Both forms of the question are in fact invalid questions, hence unanswerable. The fact of the matter is that existence exists, and that is all there is to say about it.

pinky


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: chessrook]
    #1839876 - 08/22/03 10:18 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Unless you personally define morality based on how you 'feel'....though that's as subjective of a basis as any.


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: chessrook]
    #1839885 - 08/22/03 10:23 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

chessrook writes:

Since you stated you don't believe in God, on what basis do you support an argument in favor of morality? What is your moral standard and why should anyone, including yourself, follow it? What is your moral standard and why should anyone, including yourself, follow it? Morality by its very definition requires a standard of right and wrong. Morality implies there IS a right and wrong.

Correct. But it is not necessary for morality to flow from god. Objective morality (most commonly referred to as "Natural Law") springs from the nature of humans. Whether humans were created or arose spontaneously from inanimate matter is irrelevant to the discussion of what constitutes the "rightness" and "wrongness" of human actions within a societal context.

pinky


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: LOBO]
    #1839923 - 08/22/03 10:38 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

You are really funny swami,
I know. When you come to town, I will give you two free tickets to the Comedy Club. My real name is Jerry S******d.

is that your evidence that God does not exist?
No, but it is my UNDISPUTABLE proof that not everyone who takes a deep journey, on what most people believe to be THE most powerful psychedelic (ayahuasca or DMT), encounters gods or aliens.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1840016 - 08/22/03 11:17 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

He could have been lying about it, Swami. Maybe there's not reason for him to, but couldn't he? Is it really indisputable?


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: neutralizer]
    #1840027 - 08/22/03 11:21 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Is it really indisputable?

Yes because those that "see" God are so excited that they just have to share it with everybody; besides they would not lie as it would displease God. :wink: 


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1840059 - 08/22/03 11:33 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

That trip report shows that what you get from a trip comes from whatever potential you have in your mind already. The last words in the report are:

I know from my studies years ago that this type of thinking is the basis of existentialism and that I didn't make any of it up. But La Purga brought out a most tangible sense of existentialism from the depths of my psyche. Last week I might have thought that maybe I was an existentialist. Now I know.

Maybe next time he will have a less terrifying trip where he doesn't ask "Why?" all the time, but rather "Why not?" :smile:
   


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Offlinechessrook
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1840067 - 08/22/03 11:35 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Natural law is based on the condition of a created universe, that there are universal moral laws built in to the order of nature...just like physical laws.  (That's why conservatives love 'natural law' and liberals don't.)

You bring up the point of 'rightness' and 'wrongness' in a societal context.  I agree, we have such a right and wrong, but these are purely subjective to the culture and society that produced them.  There's no MUST or OUGHT to them in an individual sense. 

Take murder for example.  Let's say I get pissed at you for disagreeing with me on the BB  :smile:  I find you and kill you 'cause I'm so mad.  Obviously this is wrong in our societal context, but is it universally wrong...will I face an ultimate reckoning (other than societal even if the electric chair) for doing so?  It'd be hard to imagine without a God or at least a supreme force that takes an interest in such things. 

That aside, could I not argue that my basic biology/psychology compelled me to murder, thereby making it 'natural?' So how would we discover thisw natural law and agree upon what it was?

No, without a God (in the context of this thread)we always have to put 'right' and 'wrong' in quotes.

I think....... 


Be well! 


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: chessrook]
    #1840143 - 08/22/03 12:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

morality today is based on about 70% Human made laws, and 30% percent natural laws. By natural laws i mean like Homosexuals, It was thought immoral in the past, possibly because sex was more restricted to reproduction purposes. Or murder, where if you were able to kill anyone you want evolution would probably never had happened, There would only be stupid human/apes killing all the smart ones. Then theres man-made laws like Anti-Drug laws. Back when indegineous people ruled the Americas, Drugs wherent illegal, they were part of the natural agriculture and spirituality. But when the Christians who had these laws established, posibbly not to let people "think for them selves", When they came in and took over it became socialy immoral to use drugs. So it all comes down to personal opinion. Personaly i leran more towards the natural laws. Thats all morality is, it doesent come from god.


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1840183 - 08/22/03 12:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
And it is presumptous to assume that these drug experiences AREN'T truly spiritual in nature...





I didn't.

Quote:


I doubt that you are ever truly open-minded enought to have a spiritual experience, but as I don't know you, it isn't well founded for me to have those doubts, now is it? No one can say whether or not someone else had a spiritual experience, as they are not of their spirit..





True.

Quote:


Wait, it's a personal experience? Then how do you know if he had a spiritual experience or not? That doesn't make sense to me.. I can't believe you would truly hate a word and what it implies, but then say that that is what it "is all about":

And, is it possible to find your evidental proof if you are dishonestly looking, or if perhaps you aren't even working but sort of stumble onto it?
Peace.




Wait! You just said this was a personal experience didn't you? So we agree on that.

I know he hasn't had one becuase he said he hasn't had one.

I hate the word faith because it is often confused with gullability.
Sometimes this requires repressing our critical thought processes (human critical thought processes). This is hard to do and many will see that as gullability.

I'm not saying that anyone should not be skeptical. Just don't deceive yourself as being skeptical when you are really a prejudice debunker.

Why would someone dishonestly look for eviddence of spirit? Wouldn't this be counterproductive?

I do believe that people can stumble upon it and I think it happens all the time. There are also those who are predisposed to reject these events due to their personal prejudices.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: MindTrap]
    #1840291 - 08/22/03 12:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MindTrap said:
I didn't.




I didn't say that you did... hehe



Quote:


Wait!  You just said this was a personal experience didn't you?  So we agree on that.

I know he hasn't had one becuase he said he hasn't had one.




Well, I think he had a spiritual experience, although it wasn't "I saw God" or something to do with religion.. I think any experience that helps someone grow or realize new things like that is spiritual, but that's just part of my definition..

Quote:


I hate the word faith because it is often confused with gullability.
Sometimes this requires repressing our critical thought processes (human critical thought processes).  This is hard to do and many will see that as gullability.





I agree with you, man. I do hold some faiths, and they aren't because I am weak or am easily convinced... granted, they aren't faiths as to what happens when we die, but more personal ones that aid me in this lifetime...

I don't disagree with you on any of your points, man. I was just seeing how you came about your answers, you pass my test! :grin:

I have now way of knowing what is really out there, behind all of this, and I don't plan on wasting my time trying to find out, since I have so much meaning to make in this lifetime, so much to experience.. I am intrigued, however.
Peace. 


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1840311 - 08/22/03 12:48 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"Societies can be grouped into three levels of philosophical advancement.
The least advanced society asks the question, 'Why do we eat?'
The moderately advanced society asks, 'How do we eat?'
And finally, the most advanced society asks, 'Where shall we have lunch?' "

-Douglas Adams, Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1840322 - 08/22/03 12:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

That man is a genius.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: MindTrap]
    #1840328 - 08/22/03 12:53 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

WAS a genuis

tragically, he is dead.

hope he got that alien body he wanted.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: chessrook]
    #1840579 - 08/22/03 02:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

chessrook writes:

Natural law is based on the condition of a created universe, that there are universal moral laws built in to the order of nature...just like physical laws.

Incorrect. Neither the laws of physics nor the laws of ethics (morality) depend on a Creator or a "created" universe. In both cases the laws are due to the nature of the entities being discussed.

I agree, we have such a right and wrong, but these are purely subjective to the culture and society that produced them. There's no MUST or OUGHT to them in an individual sense.

Incorrect. Objective morality exists, whether or not the members of a given society choose to acknowledge it. You are correct however in pointing out that the concept of morality is applicable only in the societal context -- a lone human on a desert isle by definition cannot act immorally. See my responses in the thread titled "are 'ethics' worth talking about".

I find you and kill you 'cause I'm so mad. Obviously this is wrong in our societal context, but is it universally wrong...will I face an ultimate reckoning (other than societal even if the electric chair) for doing so?

Your action is wrong because the action took place in a societal context, hence by definition can be judged moral or immoral. More than one human = society. It is wrong in any human society: Asian or Occidental, technological or pastoral, religious or secular.

It'd be hard to imagine without a God or at least a supreme force that takes an interest in such things.

Whether a supreme force exists or not matters not a whit -- the action is still immoral.

That aside, could I not argue that my basic biology/psychology compelled me to murder, thereby making it 'natural?'

Temptation is not an excuse, nor is inclination. All that matters is whether or not you act out the inclination. Clearly an individual with truly uncontrollable murderous urges is a very rare aberration deviating from the norm -- it cannot be otherwise, or the species could not have existed for as long as it has. Such individuals are classed as insane, and virtually every society in recorded history has recognized the need to treat such individuals differently from the rest of society.

No, without a God (in the context of this thread)we always have to put 'right' and 'wrong' in quotes.

Incorrect. "Right" and "wrong" actions are applicable only to humans, and even then only to multiple humans. To a single all-powerful God, these concepts are meaningless. Whatever it does is what it does -- it can be neither right nor wrong. This is also true of animals -- how can a bacterium perform a "wrong" act?

pinky


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1840618 - 08/22/03 02:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Objective morality exists, whether or not the members of a given society choose to acknowledge it. You are correct however in pointing out that the concept of morality is applicable only in the societal context

if morality is applicable only in a societal context, can it really be called "objective"?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1840699 - 08/22/03 02:45 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

if morality is applicable only in a societal context, can it really be called "objective"?

Yes, because it is unchanging regardless of which society is involved. However, to a single isolated human plunked down on a desert island in the middle of nowhere, "morality" is a null concept, just as "procreation" and "conversation" to that same human in that same situation is a null concept.

Ethics, or morals, are by definition rules which govern proper human interaction. In the absence of other humans, human interaction cannot occur.

pinky


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1840767 - 08/22/03 03:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I agree that morality only applies when there are two or more sentient beings involved. but about this unchanging objective morality, where does it come from? (without invoking a supreme being please)... you said in the other thread that it's a discovery, not a construct, which implies that it is pre-existing. yet you say:

Ethics, or morals, are by definition rules which govern proper human interaction

are you saying that there were rules to govern human interaction before humans "discovered" them? when were these rules in effect? when human evolved? when life evolved? when the universe was created? and who or what created these rules for us?



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Offlined4m0n
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1840862 - 08/22/03 03:37 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Bactirium can do wrong by being parisiticle in its environment.  If its symbiotic in other environment it should move to it.  The god described in the bible and by most religions originated from the notion that ALL of existance including the grains of sand on the floor in a sorta domino effect can act together as one single consious entrity.  We can all take part in god.  The idea of faith is that you KNOW geneticly through memories in your DNA what it takes to exists becuase you had to learn it every time you were created and to sway from this pattern is an illusion away from the divine plan.  Its like a skin cell on your arm.  It doesnt wounder why its there.  If it did it would start acting funny and disconnect from your body then be blown off. Kinda like how you know whats right and wrong.  If you pretend you dont just to give into an outside influence other than that of creation and existance you will head into the direction of destruction and return to the void from witch the influence sprung.  People are being watched the same way biologist watch bacteria.  You can see the biologist who eraticates a bad parisiticle bactirium the same way god destroyed babylon.  Most of the actions of god manifest as natural occurances through a domino affect that happens to balance out the imbalance that your action created yet others come from highly evolved beings.  Not to say that some human looking alien watching the human race from a star ship equipt with particle beams is god, Im saying they are being part of god by destroying a destructive culture.  The most overlooked teaching of Ras Tafari is that every man can embody the spirit of Jah.  By his actions he has become the HEAD of god.  When the Rastifarian culture sprung it constantly praised him as the one true living god as his actions of the most high created a rise of freedom of the minds of ALL races who were taught they were inferior resulting in the end of slavery.  Nothing to this day can amount to the change he has created in this world other than Jesus himself. The idea of taking Jesus into your heart comes from the fact that his energy is still around and you can let him actualy be part of your energy so he can guide you in the right path. There is a big difference in the colors and intensity of the auras you can see with a transparent diode on a video camera of those who accept the holy ghost and those who dont. Entheogens as you call them are actualy road maps to the head (RAS) of god.  If you follow the divine plan of existance stored in all living things and amplified in entheogens you too can sit at the helm of creation.  You will not be alone when you get there so staying there is a matter of your ability to maintain creative existance. :mushroom2:


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: neutralizer]
    #1840909 - 08/22/03 03:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

shut up all of you


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1841023 - 08/22/03 04:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

infidelGOD writes:

I agree that morality only applies when there are two or more sentient beings involved. but about this unchanging objective morality, where does it come from?

From the nature of human beings. All entities which exist have a nature. A ball of iron has specific attributes that a cylinder of glass does not. Humans have specific attributes which protozoa do not.

Ethics, or morals, are by definition rules which govern proper human interaction

Oops! My bad. That shoud have read "Ethics, or morals are by definition rules which DESCRIBE proper human interaction." A subtle yet critical distinction. I haven't been getting much sleep lately.

are you saying that there were rules to govern human interaction before humans "discovered" them?

Rules which describe proper human interaction? Yes.

when were these rules in effect? when human evolved?

Yes.

and who or what created these rules for us?

I don't know how many times I need to repeat this -- no one created the rules. The intrinsic nature of Homo sapiens sapiens determines what the rules are. An individual of the species known as Homo sapiens sapiens has various attributes which shape his/her mode of existence. Included among these attributes are:

1) mortality
2) lack of unerring and inbuilt instinctual knowledge required for survival
3) the capacity to reason
4) free will, or volition

Eliminate or alter any of the above and the rules change. This is apparent when observing the world of plants and animals: what is proper behavior for an oak tree is not proper behavior for a marmoset.

pinky


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1841084 - 08/22/03 04:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

fair enough. I mostly agree.

but if the existence of morals is contingent on the existence of humans beings, if morals are in the intrinsic nature of human beings, then strictly speaking, it isn't objective.

purely objective morality would apply to all beings and would exist whether or not humans existed, as in objective reality (and I have my doubts about that one too). but I basically agree with you - there are unchanging "objective" morals that govern human behavior.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1841498 - 08/22/03 07:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

infidelGOD writes:

but if the existence of morals is contingent on the existence of humans beings, if morals are in the intrinsic nature of human beings, then strictly speaking, it isn't objective.

Only if one insists that the definition of "objective" requires the presence of human beings -- or at least the presence of sentient entities. Would you not agree that nuclear fusion is an objective phenomenon? Do nuclear reactions not occur whether or not there are humans around to observe them?

purely objective morality would apply to all beings and would exist whether or not humans existed, as in objective reality.

Not so. For example, a bacterium is a being, yet the concept of "morality" is inapplicable to a bacterium. It lacks the essential attributes required for morality to apply to its actions.

but I basically agree with you - there are unchanging "objective" morals that govern human behavior.

I'm glad to see I am not alone on this. Yay!

pinky


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1841532 - 08/22/03 07:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I think the reason that morals came about and hold true in society is because certain actions can prohibit the advancement of us, and others cannot. People came to realize this; thus, morals were born.

People killing each other with no real reason really doesn't help us evolve, to continue on, so therefore, doing so is "wrong". Morals really didn't exist before we were here. It is just a necessary protocol if we are to continue living, breathing, and evolving. If killing anyone just because did not harm in any way our advancement, than it wouldn't be immoral to do so.

Also, notice how certain groups throughout history that became highly immoral ended up vanishing... people were not concerned with the good of their people, the advancement of their race, and thus, they came not to be...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1841873 - 08/22/03 09:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe next time he will have a less terrifying trip where he doesn't ask "Why?" all the time, but rather "Why not?"

You mean he will turn into JFK? (all those who get these historical trivia jokes raise your hands)


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1842031 - 08/22/03 10:14 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

" think the reason that morals came about and hold true in society is because certain actions can prohibit the advancement of us, and others cannot."

bingo.

Kin Selection Theory supports this. Humans evolved compassion over the years because the most compassionate humans were able to protect their genetics and pass them on. Communities that dont care about their children or eacother are much more likely to perish and extinguish the genetics that made them that way. After a few million generations, the human race ended up with a complex emotional center in their brain. What a bargain!!!! Evolutionary psychology is fun!


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Offlinechessrook
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Registered: 02/03/03
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1842451 - 08/23/03 12:34 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

well Pinksharkmark, what you've done is simply redefine objective morality and made it insubstantial. Morality without moral AUTHORITY is weak and powerless at best...non-existent at worst.

Objective morality exists? You say that it does because of the >>nature of humankind<<<. Well hell, are we going to come to a consensus on what the nature of humans is? I doubt it. We could try...

If we can't agree on the nature of man ( has he a soul? a spirit? both? What is the mind? Consciousness? Are we created by design or by randomness?) the how in the world are we going to base some objective morality on that?

Geez, I'm rereading this and it sounds angry...I'm not....I'm enjoying it!

be well


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Offlinechessrook
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1842461 - 08/23/03 12:38 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Just for kicks....

Pinksharkmark, how about a short list of say 10 things that are objective morals that all humans, by nature, in every culture, know to be true.

Furthermore, if these morals are objectively inherent in humans because of their nature, why and more importantly HOW do we break these moral and thereby 'sin' or whatever you want to call it?

be well


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1842669 - 08/23/03 02:42 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You mean he will turn into JFK?



I was thinking of Tim Leary. "Why not?" were Tim's final words.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1842961 - 08/23/03 11:03 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"That trip report shows that what you get from a trip comes from whatever potential you have in your mind already."
---------------


Excellent point !


Your mind is like a giant library.. Soooooo many volumes to brouse through !


...But I'm not convinced that "tripping" is the sole way of gaining access...




--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1844100 - 08/23/03 09:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I really don?t see any justification for a set of objective rules, if such a thing exists, to be unchanging.


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: raytrace]
    #1844246 - 08/23/03 11:10 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting subject!

The Nature of Man...

What is the nature of man? Or more specifically, what is the nature of physical man or the concious mind).


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