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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: neutralizer]
    #1840027 - 08/22/03 11:21 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Is it really indisputable?

Yes because those that "see" God are so excited that they just have to share it with everybody; besides they would not lie as it would displease God. :wink: 


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 months, 9 days
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Swami]
    #1840059 - 08/22/03 11:33 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

That trip report shows that what you get from a trip comes from whatever potential you have in your mind already. The last words in the report are:

I know from my studies years ago that this type of thinking is the basis of existentialism and that I didn't make any of it up. But La Purga brought out a most tangible sense of existentialism from the depths of my psyche. Last week I might have thought that maybe I was an existentialist. Now I know.

Maybe next time he will have a less terrifying trip where he doesn't ask "Why?" all the time, but rather "Why not?" :smile:
   


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Offlinechessrook
Wanderer
Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 46
Loc: Western NC
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1840067 - 08/22/03 11:35 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Natural law is based on the condition of a created universe, that there are universal moral laws built in to the order of nature...just like physical laws.  (That's why conservatives love 'natural law' and liberals don't.)

You bring up the point of 'rightness' and 'wrongness' in a societal context.  I agree, we have such a right and wrong, but these are purely subjective to the culture and society that produced them.  There's no MUST or OUGHT to them in an individual sense. 

Take murder for example.  Let's say I get pissed at you for disagreeing with me on the BB  :smile:  I find you and kill you 'cause I'm so mad.  Obviously this is wrong in our societal context, but is it universally wrong...will I face an ultimate reckoning (other than societal even if the electric chair) for doing so?  It'd be hard to imagine without a God or at least a supreme force that takes an interest in such things. 

That aside, could I not argue that my basic biology/psychology compelled me to murder, thereby making it 'natural?' So how would we discover thisw natural law and agree upon what it was?

No, without a God (in the context of this thread)we always have to put 'right' and 'wrong' in quotes.

I think....... 


Be well! 


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OfflineSpokesman
The HighPhilosopher

Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey U.S.
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: chessrook]
    #1840143 - 08/22/03 12:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

morality today is based on about 70% Human made laws, and 30% percent natural laws. By natural laws i mean like Homosexuals, It was thought immoral in the past, possibly because sex was more restricted to reproduction purposes. Or murder, where if you were able to kill anyone you want evolution would probably never had happened, There would only be stupid human/apes killing all the smart ones. Then theres man-made laws like Anti-Drug laws. Back when indegineous people ruled the Americas, Drugs wherent illegal, they were part of the natural agriculture and spirituality. But when the Christians who had these laws established, posibbly not to let people "think for them selves", When they came in and took over it became socialy immoral to use drugs. So it all comes down to personal opinion. Personaly i leran more towards the natural laws. Thats all morality is, it doesent come from god.


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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1840183 - 08/22/03 12:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
And it is presumptous to assume that these drug experiences AREN'T truly spiritual in nature...





I didn't.

Quote:


I doubt that you are ever truly open-minded enought to have a spiritual experience, but as I don't know you, it isn't well founded for me to have those doubts, now is it? No one can say whether or not someone else had a spiritual experience, as they are not of their spirit..





True.

Quote:


Wait, it's a personal experience? Then how do you know if he had a spiritual experience or not? That doesn't make sense to me.. I can't believe you would truly hate a word and what it implies, but then say that that is what it "is all about":

And, is it possible to find your evidental proof if you are dishonestly looking, or if perhaps you aren't even working but sort of stumble onto it?
Peace.




Wait! You just said this was a personal experience didn't you? So we agree on that.

I know he hasn't had one becuase he said he hasn't had one.

I hate the word faith because it is often confused with gullability.
Sometimes this requires repressing our critical thought processes (human critical thought processes). This is hard to do and many will see that as gullability.

I'm not saying that anyone should not be skeptical. Just don't deceive yourself as being skeptical when you are really a prejudice debunker.

Why would someone dishonestly look for eviddence of spirit? Wouldn't this be counterproductive?

I do believe that people can stumble upon it and I think it happens all the time. There are also those who are predisposed to reject these events due to their personal prejudices.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: MindTrap]
    #1840291 - 08/22/03 12:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MindTrap said:
I didn't.




I didn't say that you did... hehe



Quote:


Wait!  You just said this was a personal experience didn't you?  So we agree on that.

I know he hasn't had one becuase he said he hasn't had one.




Well, I think he had a spiritual experience, although it wasn't "I saw God" or something to do with religion.. I think any experience that helps someone grow or realize new things like that is spiritual, but that's just part of my definition..

Quote:


I hate the word faith because it is often confused with gullability.
Sometimes this requires repressing our critical thought processes (human critical thought processes).  This is hard to do and many will see that as gullability.





I agree with you, man. I do hold some faiths, and they aren't because I am weak or am easily convinced... granted, they aren't faiths as to what happens when we die, but more personal ones that aid me in this lifetime...

I don't disagree with you on any of your points, man. I was just seeing how you came about your answers, you pass my test! :grin:

I have now way of knowing what is really out there, behind all of this, and I don't plan on wasting my time trying to find out, since I have so much meaning to make in this lifetime, so much to experience.. I am intrigued, however.
Peace. 


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 24 days
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1840311 - 08/22/03 12:48 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"Societies can be grouped into three levels of philosophical advancement.
The least advanced society asks the question, 'Why do we eat?'
The moderately advanced society asks, 'How do we eat?'
And finally, the most advanced society asks, 'Where shall we have lunch?' "

-Douglas Adams, Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1840322 - 08/22/03 12:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

That man is a genius.


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OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 24 days
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: MindTrap]
    #1840328 - 08/22/03 12:53 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

WAS a genuis

tragically, he is dead.

hope he got that alien body he wanted.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 17 days
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: chessrook]
    #1840579 - 08/22/03 02:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

chessrook writes:

Natural law is based on the condition of a created universe, that there are universal moral laws built in to the order of nature...just like physical laws.

Incorrect. Neither the laws of physics nor the laws of ethics (morality) depend on a Creator or a "created" universe. In both cases the laws are due to the nature of the entities being discussed.

I agree, we have such a right and wrong, but these are purely subjective to the culture and society that produced them. There's no MUST or OUGHT to them in an individual sense.

Incorrect. Objective morality exists, whether or not the members of a given society choose to acknowledge it. You are correct however in pointing out that the concept of morality is applicable only in the societal context -- a lone human on a desert isle by definition cannot act immorally. See my responses in the thread titled "are 'ethics' worth talking about".

I find you and kill you 'cause I'm so mad. Obviously this is wrong in our societal context, but is it universally wrong...will I face an ultimate reckoning (other than societal even if the electric chair) for doing so?

Your action is wrong because the action took place in a societal context, hence by definition can be judged moral or immoral. More than one human = society. It is wrong in any human society: Asian or Occidental, technological or pastoral, religious or secular.

It'd be hard to imagine without a God or at least a supreme force that takes an interest in such things.

Whether a supreme force exists or not matters not a whit -- the action is still immoral.

That aside, could I not argue that my basic biology/psychology compelled me to murder, thereby making it 'natural?'

Temptation is not an excuse, nor is inclination. All that matters is whether or not you act out the inclination. Clearly an individual with truly uncontrollable murderous urges is a very rare aberration deviating from the norm -- it cannot be otherwise, or the species could not have existed for as long as it has. Such individuals are classed as insane, and virtually every society in recorded history has recognized the need to treat such individuals differently from the rest of society.

No, without a God (in the context of this thread)we always have to put 'right' and 'wrong' in quotes.

Incorrect. "Right" and "wrong" actions are applicable only to humans, and even then only to multiple humans. To a single all-powerful God, these concepts are meaningless. Whatever it does is what it does -- it can be neither right nor wrong. This is also true of animals -- how can a bacterium perform a "wrong" act?

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1840618 - 08/22/03 02:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Objective morality exists, whether or not the members of a given society choose to acknowledge it. You are correct however in pointing out that the concept of morality is applicable only in the societal context

if morality is applicable only in a societal context, can it really be called "objective"?


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 17 days
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1840699 - 08/22/03 02:45 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

if morality is applicable only in a societal context, can it really be called "objective"?

Yes, because it is unchanging regardless of which society is involved. However, to a single isolated human plunked down on a desert island in the middle of nowhere, "morality" is a null concept, just as "procreation" and "conversation" to that same human in that same situation is a null concept.

Ethics, or morals, are by definition rules which govern proper human interaction. In the absence of other humans, human interaction cannot occur.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1840767 - 08/22/03 03:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I agree that morality only applies when there are two or more sentient beings involved. but about this unchanging objective morality, where does it come from? (without invoking a supreme being please)... you said in the other thread that it's a discovery, not a construct, which implies that it is pre-existing. yet you say:

Ethics, or morals, are by definition rules which govern proper human interaction

are you saying that there were rules to govern human interaction before humans "discovered" them? when were these rules in effect? when human evolved? when life evolved? when the universe was created? and who or what created these rules for us?



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Offlined4m0n
journeyman

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 92
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1840862 - 08/22/03 03:37 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Bactirium can do wrong by being parisiticle in its environment.  If its symbiotic in other environment it should move to it.  The god described in the bible and by most religions originated from the notion that ALL of existance including the grains of sand on the floor in a sorta domino effect can act together as one single consious entrity.  We can all take part in god.  The idea of faith is that you KNOW geneticly through memories in your DNA what it takes to exists becuase you had to learn it every time you were created and to sway from this pattern is an illusion away from the divine plan.  Its like a skin cell on your arm.  It doesnt wounder why its there.  If it did it would start acting funny and disconnect from your body then be blown off. Kinda like how you know whats right and wrong.  If you pretend you dont just to give into an outside influence other than that of creation and existance you will head into the direction of destruction and return to the void from witch the influence sprung.  People are being watched the same way biologist watch bacteria.  You can see the biologist who eraticates a bad parisiticle bactirium the same way god destroyed babylon.  Most of the actions of god manifest as natural occurances through a domino affect that happens to balance out the imbalance that your action created yet others come from highly evolved beings.  Not to say that some human looking alien watching the human race from a star ship equipt with particle beams is god, Im saying they are being part of god by destroying a destructive culture.  The most overlooked teaching of Ras Tafari is that every man can embody the spirit of Jah.  By his actions he has become the HEAD of god.  When the Rastifarian culture sprung it constantly praised him as the one true living god as his actions of the most high created a rise of freedom of the minds of ALL races who were taught they were inferior resulting in the end of slavery.  Nothing to this day can amount to the change he has created in this world other than Jesus himself. The idea of taking Jesus into your heart comes from the fact that his energy is still around and you can let him actualy be part of your energy so he can guide you in the right path. There is a big difference in the colors and intensity of the auras you can see with a transparent diode on a video camera of those who accept the holy ghost and those who dont. Entheogens as you call them are actualy road maps to the head (RAS) of god.  If you follow the divine plan of existance stored in all living things and amplified in entheogens you too can sit at the helm of creation.  You will not be alone when you get there so staying there is a matter of your ability to maintain creative existance. :mushroom2:


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: neutralizer]
    #1840909 - 08/22/03 03:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

shut up all of you


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
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Last seen: 7 years, 17 days
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1841023 - 08/22/03 04:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

infidelGOD writes:

I agree that morality only applies when there are two or more sentient beings involved. but about this unchanging objective morality, where does it come from?

From the nature of human beings. All entities which exist have a nature. A ball of iron has specific attributes that a cylinder of glass does not. Humans have specific attributes which protozoa do not.

Ethics, or morals, are by definition rules which govern proper human interaction

Oops! My bad. That shoud have read "Ethics, or morals are by definition rules which DESCRIBE proper human interaction." A subtle yet critical distinction. I haven't been getting much sleep lately.

are you saying that there were rules to govern human interaction before humans "discovered" them?

Rules which describe proper human interaction? Yes.

when were these rules in effect? when human evolved?

Yes.

and who or what created these rules for us?

I don't know how many times I need to repeat this -- no one created the rules. The intrinsic nature of Homo sapiens sapiens determines what the rules are. An individual of the species known as Homo sapiens sapiens has various attributes which shape his/her mode of existence. Included among these attributes are:

1) mortality
2) lack of unerring and inbuilt instinctual knowledge required for survival
3) the capacity to reason
4) free will, or volition

Eliminate or alter any of the above and the rules change. This is apparent when observing the world of plants and animals: what is proper behavior for an oak tree is not proper behavior for a marmoset.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1841084 - 08/22/03 04:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

fair enough. I mostly agree.

but if the existence of morals is contingent on the existence of humans beings, if morals are in the intrinsic nature of human beings, then strictly speaking, it isn't objective.

purely objective morality would apply to all beings and would exist whether or not humans existed, as in objective reality (and I have my doubts about that one too). but I basically agree with you - there are unchanging "objective" morals that govern human behavior.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 17 days
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1841498 - 08/22/03 07:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

infidelGOD writes:

but if the existence of morals is contingent on the existence of humans beings, if morals are in the intrinsic nature of human beings, then strictly speaking, it isn't objective.

Only if one insists that the definition of "objective" requires the presence of human beings -- or at least the presence of sentient entities. Would you not agree that nuclear fusion is an objective phenomenon? Do nuclear reactions not occur whether or not there are humans around to observe them?

purely objective morality would apply to all beings and would exist whether or not humans existed, as in objective reality.

Not so. For example, a bacterium is a being, yet the concept of "morality" is inapplicable to a bacterium. It lacks the essential attributes required for morality to apply to its actions.

but I basically agree with you - there are unchanging "objective" morals that govern human behavior.

I'm glad to see I am not alone on this. Yay!

pinky


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Phred]
    #1841532 - 08/22/03 07:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I think the reason that morals came about and hold true in society is because certain actions can prohibit the advancement of us, and others cannot. People came to realize this; thus, morals were born.

People killing each other with no real reason really doesn't help us evolve, to continue on, so therefore, doing so is "wrong". Morals really didn't exist before we were here. It is just a necessary protocol if we are to continue living, breathing, and evolving. If killing anyone just because did not harm in any way our advancement, than it wouldn't be immoral to do so.

Also, notice how certain groups throughout history that became highly immoral ended up vanishing... people were not concerned with the good of their people, the advancement of their race, and thus, they came not to be...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1841873 - 08/22/03 09:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe next time he will have a less terrifying trip where he doesn't ask "Why?" all the time, but rather "Why not?"

You mean he will turn into JFK? (all those who get these historical trivia jokes raise your hands)


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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