Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

Magic Mushrooms Zamnesia
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8  [ show all ]
Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator * 1
    #26160995 -

We all have an inborn awareness that nature had a creator.  Nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature.  This truth is literally staring us in the face, every day, all day.

This innate understanding must be trained out of us by society (school/mass media) until we've assumed the socially acceptable and "educated" (though entirely irrational) position that nature created itself....  that nature created the very natural laws by which it is governed.

Like the Copernican Principle, this materialistic 'nature-created-nature' position is supported by no evidence at all, yet is taken for granted as high scientific wisdom of our age.

But deep down we know it's not true.  We know that nature did not create itself... we know the natural laws did not compose themselves by natural means.... the same way we know that musical and literary masterpieces did not compose themselves. 

In an attempt to escape the truth, we pretend there is no evidence of the supernatural yet the evidence, the creation itself, is screaming out to us every second of our lives, and we run away from it... or we pretend it's just all too mysterious and nobody can know for sure.  "Well science is still working on it........."

In my opinion, it just comes down to severe levels of denial.  Like a child not wanting to admit that playtime is over and that it's time for bed... admitting to ourselves that all of this natural universe around us has a supernatural creator evokes far too many issues about rules and authority that we'd rather not deal with.  We want our playtime to keep going all night, so we believe whatever we have to believe to keep the fun going.

And so we deny the truth all around us.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26161175 -

When we Read Between The Lines we might wonder why the need for esotericism. Obviously there must be deeper levels of meaning that are not explicitly aired. With this in mind the Green Novices, such as you and me, might grant that the true nature of reality and our place in it, is not as black & white as it appears, or as we would like it to appear to suit our arguments.

For example the net result of your behavior is the "Saving of souls from the everlasting fires of hell" but the gardener knows that good compost is a product of the 'greens' and the 'browns' intermixed. So there we are, immersed in shit up to our ears if you get my drift.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26161181 -

Adults really don't want to learn baby talk, but babies have feelings and know stuff too.
This might relate to the problem when baby talk is forced upon society rather than hurt someone's feelings. This is a trap.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26161212 -

Quote:
And so we deny the truth all around us.


From the link:

"St. Augustine states, drawing upon writings of Seneca and Varro that we no longer possess:
[W]ith respect to these sacred rites of the civil theology, Seneca preferred, as the best course to be followed by a wise man, to feign respect for them in act, but to have no real regard for them at heart.... [Seneca] worshipped what he censured, did what he condemned, adored what he reproached, because, forsooth, philosophy had taught him something great–namely, not to be superstitious in the world, but, on account of the laws of cities and customs of men, to be an actor, not on the stage, but in the temples.
– Augustine, City of God, 203 (6.10)"  Underlining mine.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26161758 -

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26161942 -

Quote:
saved7 said::  .. the same way we know that musical and literary masterpieces did not compose themselves.


This not support for inborn awareness it's an appeal to consider the natural world similar to  the creative works of men. It depend on not innate inborn awareness, it depends on discrimination gained from experience. You might want to edit that out it as it supports the notion that it is not inborn awareness, but experience that leads to thinking that the natural world has a creator.

Cheers!

Edited by falcon (08/31/19 08:58 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: falcon]
    #26161979 -

good point.
the pretzel proposition of creator and artwork [as an implication of god and nature] does not map naturally onto the universe which comes of itself, and inborn awareness without projecting socially conditioned propositions onto the whole thing.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26162222 -

saved7 said:
We all have an inborn awareness that nature had a creator.  Nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature.  This truth is literally staring us in the face, every day, all day.

This innate understanding must be trained out of us by society (school/mass media) until we've assumed the socially acceptable and "educated" (though entirely irrational) position that nature created itself....  that nature created the very natural laws by which it is governed.

Like the Copernican Principle, this materialistic 'nature-created-nature' position is supported by no evidence at all, yet is taken for granted as high scientific wisdom of our age.

But deep down we know it's not true.  We know that nature did not create itself... we know the natural laws did not compose themselves by natural means.... the same way we know that musical and literary masterpieces did not compose themselves. 

In an attempt to escape the truth, we pretend there is no evidence of the supernatural yet the evidence, the creation itself, is screaming out to us every second of our lives, and we run away from it... or we pretend it's just all too mysterious and nobody can know for sure.  "Well science is still working on it........."

In my opinion, it just comes down to severe levels of denial.  Like a child not wanting to admit that playtime is over and that it's time for bed... admitting to ourselves that all of this natural universe around us has a supernatural creator evokes far too many issues about rules and authority that we'd rather not deal with.  We want our playtime to keep going all night, so we believe whatever we have to believe to keep the fun going.

And so we deny the truth all around us.


"nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature"

Where's the evidence, please back up this assertion?

"We know that nature did not create itself"

Again, please provide the evidence for this claim.

All you're doing is making a bunch of claims with zero evidence. You're also making a fallacious argument that people don't believe in your claims because they don't want to deal with some authority figure. I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: falcon]
    #26162542 -

falcon said:
Quote:
saved7 said::  .. the same way we know that musical and literary masterpieces did not compose themselves.


This not support for inborn awareness it's an appeal to consider the natural world similar to  the creative works of men. It depend on not innate inborn awareness, it depends on discrimination gained from experience. You might want to edit that out it as it supports the notion that it is not inborn awareness, but experience that leads to thinking that the natural world has a creator.

Cheers!


It's innate because with age, we all recognize that works of magnificent complexity and organization did not assemble themselves.
(Does anyone in the world believe that an 800 page novel spontaneously sprung out of the earth?)  There had to be a mind behind it.  A mind that far surpasses the material of the work itself. A symbol-maker beyond the realm of symbols.  And there could hardly be a greater work than that of the creation of the physical universe.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26162599 -

Why could there not be a greater work than the creation of the physical universe? If there is a mind that created the physical universe that can only be inferred, you can not khnow that is all that it has done. As the statement there is no greater creation than the physical creattion can not be known to be true it is not an honest statement and misleading, anything it supports includinng that there must be a mind responsible for creating the natural world can not be known to be true.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: falcon]
    #26162724 -

we are that mind already
continuously creating the universe we see into intelligent meanings and expectations


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman] * 1
    #26162742 -

qman said:
"nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature"

Where's the evidence, please back up this assertion?


Already presented.  The creation itself (the material world) is the evidence of a non-material (i.e. supernatural) organizer.


qman said:
"We know that nature did not create itself"

Again, please provide the evidence for this claim.



I submit that it's a self-evident truth.  We understand that laws do not compose themselves.  There is always an organizing lawmaker superior to the substance of the law themselves. A composer always lies behind the composition - a composer superior or outside of the framework of what has been composed.

However we willingly blind ourselves to that truth when it comes to the natural world and the laws of nature, and instead we pretend that those laws composed themselves.  And then we collectively tell ourselves that we are wise people for believing something so illogical.

Instead of following our inborn reason to the truth of our creator, we cut ourselves off from the truth with an acquired philosophical commitment to materialism.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26162832 -

Sorry, but nature or the physical world is NOT evidence for anything supernatural. You need to provide evidence for the supernatural and you haven't done that at all. 

"We understand that laws do not compose themselves"

Yet, you can't demonstrated that the universe has been "organized" by anything other than natural causes.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26162978 -

laws are just our handle on what happens, we are still figuring it out.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26163032 -


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26163090 -

You're just projecting what you want to be true. Nature has always been and it always will be, it is beyond time and conception. What you call a "creator" is only a conceptualisation of nature. We create nature and nature creates us. God, nature, Buddha, mind, atman, the universe, the infinite, Truth, Love, reality, all of those words refer to the same thing.

Who do you think creates the creator?

Who is the one that is aware? Who is the one that perceives the truth?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: dk-1] * 2
    #26163122 -

dk-1 said:
You're just projecting what you want to be true.



You're doing the same thing though.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Big Worm] * 1
    #26163183 -

No I'm not, the reality beyond words and concepts is a complete unity, you only need to stop and look around to see it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26163276 -

Nature rising from the cosmos too scary ey.

Equating artworks and clocks n stuff to planetary development as such is not analogous.

In my opinion your are projecting your own denial of an organic coming to, in an attempt to embellish tradition.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: sudly]
    #26163280 -

I actually understand what OP is trying to assert, but this thread has become a veritable cluster fuck of misdirects now.

To suppose a creator is to beg the question: who created the creator? If you can't answer that and have to default to infinite regression (Creator A was created by B, whom was done by C...", you have nothing. You have raw determinism under the guise of mysticism. You have no plumb line for reason outside of the given set of variables.

If you keep pushing back to infinite regress you indirectly admit you already support the idea that everything just exists, has always existed, and will continue to exist without beginning or end. This is not an easy position for most to wrap their heads around as it's the exact opposite of what natural (materialist determinist) science claims.

Most philosophies are half-baked, premature delusions mired in determinism (something was created, had a start point, Big Bang, and has moved us to where we are now, etc.)

Now if you want to argue from the point of consciousness vs the external universe, I can jump in and support.

Hence my initial question nobody seems to care for: What came first, the chicken or the egg?


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26163294 -

the answer to the infinite progression paradox/riddle

is for the creator's nature to be primordial.

there ya go friends.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26163296 -

Who farted the shart? Big bang is a good guess.

The egg phylogenetically came first.

Point of consciousness vs external universe?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: sudly]
    #26163300 -

primordial

unborn


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26164193 -

Loaded Shaman said:
To suppose a creator is to beg the question: who created the creator?



You are free to ask that question but it does not detract from the original argument.  The physical universe we inhabit and the law by which it consists is clear evidence of a creator that exists outside of those laws. (i.e. super-natural)  The law can not make itself, for by what law would it do so?

In the beginning was the Word - the immutable law by which all of nature continually obeys.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26164297 -

It's counterintuitive. Why would an all-powerful entity hide behind an often unintelligible book, and expect people to see and feel the truth? Facts reveal that people come to different conclusions that result in different lifestyles and maybe there's a glimmer of truth in the variety of opinions, because variety provides us with a more interesting existence. You are not wrong therefor and neither is your opposition, and that could be exactly the way the creator intended it, otherwise we would be set straight without room for error.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26164765 -

with enough charisma and bravado you can emotionally cudgel people to believe anything.
anything.
just make the pressure stop.

relentlessness


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26164798 -

qman said:
saved7 said:
We all have an inborn awareness that nature had a creator.  Nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature.  This truth is literally staring us in the face, every day, all day.

This innate understanding must be trained out of us by society (school/mass media) until we've assumed the socially acceptable and "educated" (though entirely irrational) position that nature created itself....  that nature created the very natural laws by which it is governed.

Like the Copernican Principle, this materialistic 'nature-created-nature' position is supported by no evidence at all, yet is taken for granted as high scientific wisdom of our age.

But deep down we know it's not true.  We know that nature did not create itself... we know the natural laws did not compose themselves by natural means.... the same way we know that musical and literary masterpieces did not compose themselves. 

In an attempt to escape the truth, we pretend there is no evidence of the supernatural yet the evidence, the creation itself, is screaming out to us every second of our lives, and we run away from it... or we pretend it's just all too mysterious and nobody can know for sure.  "Well science is still working on it........."

In my opinion, it just comes down to severe levels of denial.  Like a child not wanting to admit that playtime is over and that it's time for bed... admitting to ourselves that all of this natural universe around us has a supernatural creator evokes far too many issues about rules and authority that we'd rather not deal with.  We want our playtime to keep going all night, so we believe whatever we have to believe to keep the fun going.

And so we deny the truth all around us.


"nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature"

Where's the evidence, please back up this assertion?

"We know that nature did not create itself"

Again, please provide the evidence for this claim.

All you're doing is making a bunch of claims with zero evidence. You're also making a fallacious argument that people don't believe in your claims because they don't want to deal with some authority figure. I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it.


So what do you think/believe?? Because scientific explanation "big bang theory" is MUCH more stupid and illogical than belief in God.
There IS an intelligence in creation, you are blind if you can't see it. Intelligence doesn't come from nothing.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26164810 -

redgreenvines said:
with enough charisma and bravado you can emotionally cudgel people to believe anything.
anything.
just make the pressure stop.



The moral relativist might insist that karma gas has brought the two of you together.

The often unintelligible nature of the 'good book' may be demonstrated by the OP giving us his understanding of what a Sin is.

Edited by Buster_Brown (09/02/19 07:01 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Ethric]
    #26164846 -

Ethric said:
qman said:
saved7 said:
We all have an inborn awareness that nature had a creator.  Nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature.  This truth is literally staring us in the face, every day, all day.

This innate understanding must be trained out of us by society (school/mass media) until we've assumed the socially acceptable and "educated" (though entirely irrational) position that nature created itself....  that nature created the very natural laws by which it is governed.

Like the Copernican Principle, this materialistic 'nature-created-nature' position is supported by no evidence at all, yet is taken for granted as high scientific wisdom of our age.

But deep down we know it's not true.  We know that nature did not create itself... we know the natural laws did not compose themselves by natural means.... the same way we know that musical and literary masterpieces did not compose themselves. 

In an attempt to escape the truth, we pretend there is no evidence of the supernatural yet the evidence, the creation itself, is screaming out to us every second of our lives, and we run away from it... or we pretend it's just all too mysterious and nobody can know for sure.  "Well science is still working on it........."

In my opinion, it just comes down to severe levels of denial.  Like a child not wanting to admit that playtime is over and that it's time for bed... admitting to ourselves that all of this natural universe around us has a supernatural creator evokes far too many issues about rules and authority that we'd rather not deal with.  We want our playtime to keep going all night, so we believe whatever we have to believe to keep the fun going.

And so we deny the truth all around us.


"nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature"

Where's the evidence, please back up this assertion?

"We know that nature did not create itself"

Again, please provide the evidence for this claim.

All you're doing is making a bunch of claims with zero evidence. You're also making a fallacious argument that people don't believe in your claims because they don't want to deal with some authority figure. I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it.


So what do you think/believe?? Because scientific explanation "big bang theory" is MUCH more stupid and illogical than belief in God.
There IS an intelligence in creation, you are blind if you can't see it. Intelligence doesn't come from nothing.


There's evidence for the big bang, there's zero evidence for a god. :shrug:

"There IS an intelligence in creation"

What "creation"? 

"Intelligence doesn't come from nothing"

What "intelligence"?

You're making a bunch of generalizations with no evidence, please get specific.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26164891 -

Hahaha.. WHAT evidence?? Tell me.


What creation?
- Uhmm.. ALL that living organisms and nature you see around?

What intelligence?
- Cant you really see how complex it is, and how smart it is made?

You're making a bunch of generalizations with no evidence.
- You are doing THE SAME thing.


Edited by Ethric (09/02/19 08:27 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Ethric]
    #26164912 -

Ethric said:
Hahaha.. WHAT evidence?? Tell me.


What creation?
- Uhmm.. ALL that living organisms and nature you see around?

What intelligence?
- Cant you really see how complex it is, and how smart it is made?

You're making a bunch of generalizations with no evidence.
- You are doing THE SAME thing.




https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-powered-the-big-bang

You do realize that no one claims the big bang was any sort of creation, correct?

Nature is NOT evidence of any creation.  Complexity is NOT evidence for any sort of "intelligence".

BTW, I'm not making assertions or generalizations. You're making the claims, not me.

Edited by qman (09/02/19 08:33 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26164916 -

Just explain to me how some stupid big boom could make all that?
And answer my previous questions please.

Simply, explain life.

Edited by Ethric (09/02/19 08:31 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Ethric]
    #26164952 -

Ethric said:
Just explain to me how some stupid big boom could make all that?
And answer my previous questions please.

Simply, explain life.


The big bang is a natural process, so is biological life.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman] * 1
    #26165244 -

scientific enthusiasts suppress their laziness and study nature discovering new aspects and principles that are wonderful to behold.

bible enthusiasts are too lazy minded to see for themselves what is right before their eyes, instead repeating what they heard some super yokel speak while raising funds for his charity. (then he gets into his escalade, drives to his helicopter and whisks back to his holy castle with a pool and sexy christian attentants - what's wrong with this picture?)

essentially the scientists and honest nature lovers with nothing to prove have become the weak. the ones who we hope might inherit the earth; but first the christian climate deniers - the polluters of nature for which they hope god will fix everything, have to use automatic weapons against eachother  for a while.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26165247 -

qman said:
The big bang is a natural process, so is biological life.


what is a "natural process" ?
and where did the rules governing this process come from?

seems very superstitious to believe in the spontaneous generation of mysterious undirected "processes" that govern all things...


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26165343 -

saved7 said:
qman said:
The big bang is a natural process, so is biological life.


what is a "natural process" ?
and where did the rules governing this process come from?

seems very superstitious to believe in the spontaneous generation of mysterious undirected "processes" that govern all things...


"what is a natural process"

A process existing in or produced by nature.  https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/natural%20process

Is there any evidence that "governing" takes place in nature?  Nobody has been able to present that evidence thus far. So I would stop using that argument, it's fallacious.  "govern all things"  Again, you need to demonstrate something in nature is being governed at all.

"believe in the spontaneous generation"  Of what exactly?  Nobody is claiming the universe was spontaneously created.  As far as biological life, that is an explainable natural process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesishttps:/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26165612 -

qman said:
saved7 said:
qman said:
The big bang is a natural process, so is biological life.


what is a "natural process" ?
and where did the rules governing this process come from?

seems very superstitious to believe in the spontaneous generation of mysterious undirected "processes" that govern all things...


"what is a natural process"

A process existing in or produced by nature.  https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/natural%20process


That's a dodge of the question... You're just saying "a natural process is a natural process."

Why does nature have a process to begin with?

Try making an argument for your worldview, because so far I haven't seen one.  I think it's because you know it's fundamentally irrational.


qman said:
Is there any evidence that "governing" takes place in nature?  Nobody has been able to present that evidence thus far. So I would stop using that argument, it's fallacious.  "govern all things"  Again, you need to demonstrate something in nature is being governed at all.


Of course nature is governed... by laws of nature.  We base our whole existence around the knowledge that nature continuously behaves a certain way.  Natural science would be impossible otherwise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law

Again, why does this thing called "nature" have any consistent behavior at all?  Where did it inherit these propensities from?  Did nature author itself?  What motivated it?


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26166187 -

Everyone in this thread has a different metaphysical assumption on creation/natural law, and thus will never be on the same page to have a coherent conversation without both sides sounding like they are missing the other's point.

It happens constantly. Actually, it's the main dividing line between opinions: what's your metaphysic?


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26166358 -

the question about rules for a natural process exemplifies our limits in understanding:
rules or instructions are transfered from a progenerator to progeny.

particle and wave are both at the same time - this completely flips the idea of a greater god to one of multiple myriads of microscopic godlings that are at the same time their own creations.

In this age we have only begun to understand inconceivable reality that is comprised of particles that are waves with harmonics that engender gravity and space time.

you might get a big bang out of it, or you may rely on other fantasies less functional and much more subject to political manipulation of the vulnerable group mind (sangha, or congregation).

it is not about rules, it is about what is.
this phrase could mean something but usually falls apart and becomes a liturgy of baby-talk: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
word is wave
god is particle
but both are one thing.

neither is a figure that looms in heaven to judge its creation save that both make up the stars, and that nature is relentlessly supportive to ongoing processes.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26166378 -

Deep down it doesn't really matter if it was created, unless of course you got a time machine to before the creator died/up and left :shrug: :whatever:


--------------------
I don't know shit.
And the more I know,
The more I realize it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Zyiadem]
    #26166482 -

It could matter a lot, especially if getting a good understanding of what is happening, helps people, and the planet we live on.

So far, our unenlightened social operating principles which are based upon christian dogma and hierarchies are wreaking havok in every aspect of our lives.

Yes, the origin question is not going to mean too much to more than a fraction of 1% of people, but fighting to keep hanging on to wrong ideas is not helping anything. It is a bad reality show, like the Apprentice, which no intelligent person would have put on networks. Then again, in ancient Rome, they laughed and cheered at gore in the colosseum. Very lttle progress at the center of the bell curve so far.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Zyiadem]
    #26166594 -

Zyiadem said:
Deep down it doesn't really matter if it was created, unless of course you got a time machine to before the creator died/up and left :shrug: :whatever:


redgreenvines said:
fighting to keep hanging on to wrong ideas is not helping anything. It is a bad reality show,


Subjective assessments of objective reality;


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26166778 -

Buster_Brown said:
Zyiadem said:
Deep down it doesn't really matter if it was created, unless of course you got a time machine to before the creator died/up and left :shrug: :whatever:


redgreenvines said:
fighting to keep hanging on to wrong ideas is not helping anything. It is a bad reality show,


Subjective assessments of objective reality;




Sorry Mr. Big Brain, That math shit isn't gonna work on my unenlightened ass.

If there was a creator/higher force at work, Then we wouldn't be in a constant state of entropy; hence the creator/higher force must be sick of our shit or gone.
:musky:


--------------------
I don't know shit.
And the more I know,
The more I realize it.

Edited by Zyiadem (09/03/19 12:12 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26166880 -

this is clearly an abuse of math symbols, but so dramatically pretentious that  you get credit for trying to mystify (which actually means to befog, or fufficate (which is like 'fart'))


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26166900 -

Asking what’s before the big bang is a bit like asking what’s north of the north pole, but wondering what made things come into existence is one of the ages. 

There’s no reason to think the starter of the universe was intelligent, an unintelligent process could just as easily be the start, with so little evidence it’s just which choice makes us feel happy inside.

For those who like to think about this subject and have some math skills, Stephen Hawking had some interesting ideas on Complex-time, where time is modeled not as a single forward moving dimension but as a complex number that includes a vertical non bounded dimension as well.  Allowing for our time, and potentially many others to spring

Current cosmology is composed of the big bang, but also an event right after known as inflation that blew the universe up in size and possibly set the basic structure of the universe into motion.  Without this inflation it’s

So in that case “before” (or in the case of complex-time congruently with) the big bang could have been many failed universes that collapsed back in on themselves the instant they are formed and we live in one of the few that expanded beyond collapse and kept going long enough to make humans to look back and go “Well... how in the fuck?”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Zyiadem]
    #26167559 -

Zyiadem said:
If there was a creator/higher force at work, Then we wouldn't be in a constant state of entropy; hence the creator/higher force must be sick of our shit or gone.



redgreenvines said:
this is clearly an abuse of math symbols, but so dramatically pretentious that  you get credit for trying to mystify (which actually means to befog, or fufficate (which is like 'fart'))


Given the nature of disputes and the tactics we use to discredit oppositional points of view we might credit a higher intelligence with a capacity to let the horses have their heads as it were and see what destinations their preferences lead to.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26168014 -

I think the idea of a creator is completely irrational. Who created the creator? Infinite regress? If you accept an infinite creator, you already accept the concept of something being infinite and not requiring a creator. The universe is infinite with no beginning or end. Man's perceptions and equations are but self-referential arbitrarily sliced demarcations of our perception of infinity from our finite, existential perspective.


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26168124 -

Loaded Shaman said:
I think the idea of a creator is completely irrational.


Do you think the concept of Power is irrational? No, therefore it's not unreasonable to concede that power can give license to create. A hypothesis limited by limiting the hierarchy of power bearing entities to those of one's own cognizance is just that, limited. Is that irrational?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26168157 -

Buster_Brown said:
Loaded Shaman said:
I think the idea of a creator is completely irrational.


Do you think the concept of Power is irrational? No, therefore it's not unreasonable to concede that power can give license to create. A hypothesis limited by limiting the hierarchy of power bearing entities to those of one's own cognizance is just that, limited. Is that irrational?


Power is a human mentally constructed concept, as you just admitted in your first sentence, which just like determinism is a concept, and is therefore an abstract, and not an actuality, so yes, any and all philosophical assumptions and presumptions based off of that premise being a metaphysical primary = irrational.

What you and everyone else are actually arguing is determinism. You can't have your metaphysical cake and eat it to. If you believe there is a creator, a "power" or "causal starting force" you're forced to answer this question: who created the creator?

If you believe the Big Bang BS then you're forced to answer: what was before the Big Bang? Nothing? So nothing magically becomes something? Two mutually exclusive existential states going from 0 to 1? Let me guess, natural laws and math cause the unfolding of matter, right? So scientific determinism?

Are you just arbitrarily picking a point along the continuum and deciding that's the start? This is my argument: humans arbitrarily perceive absolute infinity and parse it up so it's useful to them. This is not a bad thing. The bad thing is acting like that's what the nature of reality IS, and we're merely observing it unbiasedly/in a scientific, empirical manner.

We're not. Reason is absent in all of this bullshit and it runs rampant as scientific objective truth because it's hedged by appeals to authority and nihilistic bullshit that everyone gobbles right the fuck up, because a pre-packaged intelligent-sounding answer is more calming than the realization that shit just might exist, has always existed, and will continue to exist and humans are like ephemeral day flies visiting the fruit bowl for their 24 hour existence.

For the scientific determinist (determinism part 1) crowd:

How does nothing become something (two mutually exclusive existential states)?

When and where did the big bang happen?

Where was time before the big bang?

Where was space before the big bang?


For the creationist (determinism part 2) crowd:

How did God create everything in 7 days if the concept of time and day depends on man's perception of nature for count and measure? (I.E. Man/Woman had to already exist to mentally conceive of time as a concept to have any usefulness at all. You have to already exist to observe the sun and nature to start creating useful patterns of "time" measurement, for that to have any meaning at all)

How are we born with original sin, yet told we have freewill simultaneously? (Again two mutually exclusive ideas shoehorned as a rational concept millions accept with zero question)

Who created God? He's already absolute and infinite? ...So Nature, as we actually observe and experience it, can't be...?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26168282 -

Loaded Shaman said:
Everyone in this thread has a different metaphysical assumption on creation/natural law, and thus will never be on the same page to have a coherent conversation without both sides sounding like they are missing the other's point.

It happens constantly. Actually, it's the main dividing line between opinions: what's your metaphysic?


I don't think it's nearly as mysterious as we try and make it out to be.

Our whole existence revolves around the organization of laws.  From criminal law to the digital constraints we apply in the code of videogame worlds.  We intentionally create systems that follow rules.  This phenomena of 'mind-creating-law' is all around us.

Why does nature behave at all?  Why does a physical force exist at all?  Why does nature proceed?  What motivates it?  Why does it consist?

Nature follows a law, therefore it had a law-giver. A high commander behind the commandment. A directing mind that exists outside of its creation, just as the human software engineer stands outside of his computer program.

But instead of seeing the truth, we pretend that it's all a big illusion.  Nature created itself and the rules that govern it... somehow.... ("science" is still working on it)  and then a bunch of stardust exploded in space and gradually organized itself into humans who use the internet and talk about philosophy. 

Like a bunch of 1's and 0's declaring the computer program is all that is or ever was....  And this willfully ignorant materialist cosmology is paraded as high-wisdom in our age.

I think it's mainly because we as people don't want to admit there is most likely an ultimate authority over us.  We want to be the masters of our own lives within the created system, so we willingly blind ourselves to the truth.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26168363 -

Loaded Shaman said:
Buster_Brown said:
Loaded Shaman said:
I think the idea of a creator is completely irrational.


Do you think the concept of Power is irrational? No, therefore it's not unreasonable to concede that power can give license to create. A hypothesis limited by limiting the hierarchy of power bearing entities to those of one's own cognizance is just that, limited. Is that irrational?


Power is a human mentally constructed concept, as you just admitted in your first sentence, which just like determinism is a concept, and is therefore an abstract, and not an actuality, so yes, any and all philosophical assumptions and presumptions based off of that premise being a metaphysical primary = irrational...



Determinism can be an abstract but I don't think a powerful force is considered so. A coherent, rational perspective would acknowledge the difference in my opinion.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26168376 -

saved7 said:
qman said:
saved7 said:
qman said:
The big bang is a natural process, so is biological life.


what is a "natural process" ?
and where did the rules governing this process come from?

seems very superstitious to believe in the spontaneous generation of mysterious undirected "processes" that govern all things...


"what is a natural process"

A process existing in or produced by nature.  https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/natural%20process


That's a dodge of the question... You're just saying "a natural process is a natural process."

Why does nature have a process to begin with?

Try making an argument for your worldview, because so far I haven't seen one.  I think it's because you know it's fundamentally irrational.


qman said:
Is there any evidence that "governing" takes place in nature?  Nobody has been able to present that evidence thus far. So I would stop using that argument, it's fallacious.  "govern all things"  Again, you need to demonstrate something in nature is being governed at all.


Of course nature is governed... by laws of nature.  We base our whole existence around the knowledge that nature continuously behaves a certain way.  Natural science would be impossible otherwise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law

Again, why does this thing called "nature" have any consistent behavior at all?  Where did it inherit these propensities from?  Did nature author itself?  What motivated it?


"Why does nature have a process to begin with?"

Maybe science knows the answer at some point, but you don't get to fill in the blank with supernatural or god. 

"why does this thing called 'nature' have any consistent behavior at all?"

What does it matter if we called it consistent or inconsistent observations in nature?  That isn't evidence for anything supernatural.

"Did nature author itself?"

Does nature need an author? Please demonstrate that assertion before asking a loaded question.

"What motivated it?"

Again, please demonstrate that nature needed a motivation. Loaded questions aren't helping you here.

You might want to also acknowledge that the early part of the universe was very different than today and in hundreds of billions of years from now the universe will also be very different. It's a very brief period of time that the universe appears to be consistent, but overall it's not at all.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26168802 -

Buster_Brown said:
Loaded Shaman said:
Buster_Brown said:
Loaded Shaman said:
I think the idea of a creator is completely irrational.


Do you think the concept of Power is irrational? No, therefore it's not unreasonable to concede that power can give license to create. A hypothesis limited by limiting the hierarchy of power bearing entities to those of one's own cognizance is just that, limited. Is that irrational?


Power is a human mentally constructed concept, as you just admitted in your first sentence, which just like determinism is a concept, and is therefore an abstract, and not an actuality, so yes, any and all philosophical assumptions and presumptions based off of that premise being a metaphysical primary = irrational...



Determinism can be an abstract but I don't think a powerful force is considered so. A coherent, rational perspective would acknowledge the difference in my opinion.


Again what is the difference between determinism and "power"? What's the purpose or ability of power? To CAUSE? Initiate? Preside over? So determinism? If not, what's the distinction that makes this useful and rational in your honest opinion? Serious questions!


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26168952 -

qman said:
"Why does nature have a process to begin with?"

Maybe science knows the answer at some point, but you don't get to fill in the blank with supernatural or god. 


I don't think you're so concerned with science so much that you've yet to fit that problem into a materialist belief system.

When nature becomes your god, it has to be in charge of everything.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26168958 -

The distinction between an unstoppable force and an abstract concept is measurable results. Your immovable abstract position must be seen to cave under the pressure. OK?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26168968 -

it does not have to be god to be all pervasive.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26170354 -

Buster_Brown said:
The distinction between an unstoppable force and an abstract concept is measurable results. Your immovable abstract position must be seen to cave under the pressure. OK?


How abstract is it really?

Laws have authors.  As humans we are well aware of this phenomena and how such systems are issued forth from a designing mind. 

Anyone whose played a nintendo game can testify to that aspect of our reality.

However, the idea that nature is its own creator god,  that nature wrote the laws by which itself is governed.... does not even pass a smell test on the level of the abstract. It is entirely irrational. But such backwards materialistic thinking is embraced today as the highest wisdom... championed by our leading academic institutions... practically a foregone conclusion that "Science" is just waiting to figure out the details of.

It's incredible really, how desperate we are to run away from the truth of our creator, the author and architect of our universe.

God gave us the material and the reason to understand where it came from, and instead we make the material our god.

"When men nolonger believe in God, they will believe in anything."


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26170360 -

saved7 said:
qman said:
"Why does nature have a process to begin with?"

Maybe science knows the answer at some point, but you don't get to fill in the blank with supernatural or god. 


I don't think you're so concerned with science so much that you've yet to fit that problem into a materialist belief system.

When nature becomes your god, it has to be in charge of everything.


Hmm, what makes you think nature has become my god?  Let's be perfectly clear here, I'm NOT saying there's no supernatural god. I just need to see that demonstrated, thus far there's nothing. I'm completely open to the possibility.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26170677 -

saved7 said:
...the idea that nature is its own creator god,  that nature wrote the laws by which itself is governed.... does not even pass a smell test on the level of the abstract. It is entirely irrational.


Do gods have to be rational?

Here I give you a link to a conversation that includes, in my opinion, the irrational. But under the auspices of "The Last will be First" the irrational may not be a hinderance to policy.

https://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=337303

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26170793 -

You may ask where does "The Last will be First" enters into the equation, and I proffer the following hints (altho you may have to be English to understand 'Curtains')

Curtains - Elton John -Youtube

Absolutely Curtains - Pink Floyd - Youtube

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26170943 -

Quote:
"When men no longer believe in god they will believe in anything"

, therefore to control the minds of men you give them a book and demonstrate how to pray and then you can keep control of them...

thus was it sold to the Emperor.

whom do you serve in your belief?

whom do you want us to serve by not believing in anything we find more fitting.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26171774 -

Replace god with the state and you have the same deal, though.

Religion vs secular is the oldest false dichotomy in the book. I think it's even etched in adamantine at this point.

People demand to be led. It's biological. The trick is being led by the right philosophy, which will almost never happen because that's bad business.

Get the people to believe in the concept of a creator, but make sure they are programmed simultaneously with an irrational creation myth to hinge to it (so incomplete idea #1: "god" created everything in 7 days, out of nowhere).

Pose it up against an antipodal philosophy (natural law/materialist science), another incomplete system of deduction (everything came from nothing in a single instant for no reason!).

Two half baked recipes mired in causal determinism, each lacking the nutrition required to see shit clearly enough to sort shit out, and that's the point IMHO.

Whatever's going on will most certainly be more than the sum of the parts of the philosophies/cosmologies handed down from the priests of scientism and shills of Calvinist bullshit disguises as religious rapture/freedom, etc. I have a big ass thread coming that covers all my seemingly-unhinged positions.


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26171850 -

why does this particular universe even exsist?

(question posed to noone in particular)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26171970 -

"why?", is the question that we get from our kids, nearly all knee jerk responses to "why" are partial soothers. such answers often involve an agency and it's whims or guilt.

"what?" and "how?" are the more scientific (adult) questions which support models of consistent cohesive interplay of what is understood through evidence and experimentation.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26172866 -

thealienthatategod said:
why does this particular universe even exsist?

(question posed to noone in particular)


Best guess.. because something/somewhere is capable of creating it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26172901 -

what is a meaningful question? ...


science invents theories which illustrate models which embody our ideas about what nature is....

a model tells us the HOW, and let's us explore the implications of an idea.

they are based on,

a hypothesis,

which tells us the WHAT, and is a pronouncement that can be tested -

for example, Eisenstein hypothesized about gravitational waves in General Relativity, but it wasn't until LIGO confirmed their existence through observation in 2015 that they were confirmed by measurement

a principal is the WHY, a specification to guide and restrict the form of nature -

for example, The Principal of Relativity.

if we start with the how we may get stuck in conjectures that are incomplete part and parcel models that can at best make approximations.

if we start with the a hypothesis we now have a simple true or false assertion.

starting with the principals means requiring restrictions about natures form.

...time is fundamental to causality

we can only answer why when the why comes from a causal process that has evolved in time

however, if the laws of nature are outside of time, they will not be the result of a process of causation

to answer the why of something that is timeless would mean being able to explain the cause of something that is not influenceable.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26172965 -

Guessing is the same as saying one doesn't know. Except for those who admit ignorance it seems everyone is guessing.

Therefore, nobody knows, deep down or otherwise.

Then I suspect those who profess to know are con men. Con themselves. Con others. Seeking validation for their feelings, or power or money.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Rahz]
    #26173003 -

Well the “universe” exists.  Evidently.  Consequently something is creating it or its being created within something.  We can’t prove what this thing is.  Therefore we call it supernatural.  :shrug:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26173021 -

In order for a thing to exist it must be made? This seems like anthropomorphizing the universe. Maybe creation is a human concept that doesn't really exist outside our minds. Maybe everything just happens to exist.

It makes no more or less sense than the idea of a creator.

So maybe let's not try to hard to make sense of things, lest we end up being FOS and then becoming con men to hide our shame or profit off the ignorance of others.

I don't know. :shrug:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Rahz]
    #26173029 -

I mean, I know it's a natural tendancy to explain things, which could extend into the unexplainable. Should one assume everything is explainable? I think such assumptions are what drive us to examine phenomena more closely and create new paradigms. It's also what prompted people to suggest the Sun was a god.

So in practice it's probably good to suspect all phenomena are explainable with the right information.

But the universe as a whole, and the deeper meaning of phenomena don't seem to have rational explanations. A phenomena can be explained within the context of it's environment, but this doesn't explain why the environment exists. In order to explain an environment we much look to see a larger environment. This rationality ultimately falls apart. If existence is supposed to describe everything then there's no enviornment in which it rests. Therefore we can only decide we don't know, or we can make up something and describe it as the supernatural, which there will be absolutely no proof for.

That's why the "great cause" might get described as darkness, emptiness, formlessness, in an attempt to keep things honest.

But we don't really know, do we?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Rahz]
    #26173039 -

It doesn’t fall apart.  If the universe wasn’t created by something then it’s existed eternally.  I don’t see what the problem is here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26173090 -

Well, I'm talking about existence rather than the universe, which does seem to have an inception and an ultimate heat death. If space and time are properties of matter then the universe will eventually dissolve into nothingness. So there does seem to be something more fundamental than the universe, but if space and time are used to describe eternity, and they are properties of matter and universes which aren't eternal, then we don't really know if existence is eternal, except to say, we are here, and how can we be here without resting in eternity? It's just a guess. It may use deductive reason but it's still just a guess.

More to the point, whether existence is eternal or not... does it really make sense? If God exists, then God is existence. Why is there a God creating universes? Why would there be a God rather than there not being a God? Why is there existence, rather than their not being an existence? There is no sensible scenario for explaining why there is an existence rather than not, or why there is a particular kind of existance rather than a different kind of existence. If there is a God, why is God like God? There's no environment outside of God/existence to explain why it manifests any particular phenomena.

Perhaps an irrefutable conclusion that existance exists, eternal or not, but that's pretty mystical and magical and mysterious and unexplainable.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Edited by Rahz (09/06/19 07:20 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Rahz]
    #26173174 -

well something has to be or it isn’t.  Why some things are or are not we may or may not know.  But just because I don’t know something doesn’t make the existence (or lack of) nonsensical.  Shit happens behind our back in ordinary life and we don’t know 99% of it.  I look at the bigger picture similarly.  It’s got a mind of its own.  It’s overextension to demand all answers at once.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26173229 -

In the beginning we thought thunder was a god, we heard his word as a scream in the sky, an often angry one that destroyed cities and lives alike.

Dorian was catastrophic. 

We can admit we don't know the entirety of the universe and are open to the view that there are explanations still within the possibility of being discovered within the next decade. The hope of the largest collider in the world. A 100km particle accelerator and collider ring. For CERN in Europe. Perhaps a third interpretation of the double slit experiment known as collapse theory. As of yet unproven but theoretically probable. 

Is eternity really all that important to you? Because that's why some scientists want to contribute to the knowledge of humanity.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26173511 -

Rahz said:
In order for a thing to exist it must be made? This seems like anthropomorphizing the universe. Maybe creation is a human concept that doesn't really exist outside our minds. Maybe everything just happens to exist.


We're almost on the same page. I'd argue man has to be able to conceptualize his environment, then he makes up labels, names, numbers, etc so he can communicate with others and be productive/useful/whatever arbitrary emotional trigger you want to use. The majority of what people assume are accurate observations are concepts that begin and end in man's mind, even if the math proves a correlation "outside" of us. All of that shit requires being conscious enough to differentiate between "me" and "not me". It starts and ends in your consciousness.

Totally on board with everything just always existing, though. The further I go, the more obvious this becomes for me, shrooms/DMT or not.

To treat the concepts as real = gets us into trouble. To remember the are just concepts = a return to your true power as a human.


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26173643 -

to wager wisely we want to know what is behind doors number 1, 2, and 3, before, but until we do we have to guess or participate in some other activity.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26173884 -

Quote:
redgreenvines said: therefore to control the minds of men you give them a book and demonstrate how to pray and then you can keep control of them...



One of the main themes of the Bible is on the tendency of man to corrupt the temple/church for his own benefit.  Hardly the type of theme you'd want to hammer on if you were trying to invent a religion to control people.

If you really want to control people, you do what the world is doing now... teach people that the universe is a meaningless accident, teach people that they're a lump of material, blindly formed without purpose, and then shovel a steady dose of pornography and entertainment at them.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26174296 -

and behind door number 2?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26174325 -

Lol like people read or believe the bible!
Jesus literally said you are more likely to fit a camel through the eye of a needle than a rich man get into heaven. Guess what rich people did?  Contorted his words to claim the eye of the needle was a gateway and jesus was really just giving travel advice.

You also dont read the bible, it teaches Adam was made from mud and clay. Material of the earth.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26175269 -

saved7 said:
One of the main themes of the Bible is on the tendency of man to corrupt the temple/church for his own benefit.


Is this tendency inborn, if it is it's a natural antagonist to the inborn knowledge that there's a creator. And just so it's clear is temple you are referring to a building or the individual and the group collectively?

Edited by falcon (09/08/19 06:12 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: falcon] * 1
    #26175299 -



Bleach is more cost effective than vinegar but vinegar penetrates deeper. Jerusalem's iniquities could be in employing the vinegar of emotional outbursts to underscore Her actions thus employing rage and violence.

The levelling of the playing field in Isa 40:4 could be when Jerusalem's actions are vindicated and rage/violence are ratified by both parties to be policy.

How then are the way of the saints/children prepared for them to arrive at that product? we may ask.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #26175336 -





Yoga Philosophy of Patanjali - Swami Hariharananda Aranyak.pdf

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26175782 -

redgreenvines said:
we are that mind already
continuously creating the universe we see into intelligent meanings and expectations


you are consciousness.

mind is neither here nor there in the matter.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26176984 -

IS is all you IS. You ARE. We conveniently label this consciousness. I'd say consciousness is the ability to conceptualize. This is important to understand.

That which is said to exist can only be declared existent from a place of consciousness; and that which is conscious must, obviously, exist.  Something has to be conscious before that thing can be declared to be a thing which exists, which means before it can be declared to be a thing at all. 

In other words, existence is always going to be conscious. 

That which is not conscious cannot declare that it exists…only that which is conscious can declare anything as actually existing, be it the SELF or whatever the conscious SELF observes. 

Thus, anything which is said to exist gets its existence directly from consciousness because existence is, strictly speaking, a concept, and not a state of reality. 

In other words, nothing gets to exist unless a conscious SELF consciously declares it existing. 

Existence is not the thing in this case, consciousness is.

But the converse is also true, because we are speaking metaphysically. 

Existence likewise and equally drives consciousness. If something is conscious, then some THING, must be conscious.  Consciousness is not the thing.  Existence is the thing in this case.  So, conceptually speaking, depending on the context, existence can precede consciousness or consciousness can precede existence. 

Both proceed from the SELF, so the SELF is that which gets to define each in terms of the context…the frame of reference of the SELF and what the SELF is saying about reality in service to its own perpetuation and preservation. 

YOU are the reference point then for ALL of reality…all concepts have value only relative to YOU, because YOU are indeed the very center of the universe; all things exist only insofar as the exist TO YOU.


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: falcon]
    #26178231 -

falcon said:
Is this tendency inborn, if it is it's a natural antagonist to the inborn knowledge that there's a creator. And just so it's clear is temple you are referring to a building or the individual and the group collectively?


That's the sad part.  We know that we have a creator and yet we choose to worship the creation. (live for the flesh) ....

We invent superstitious mystical ideas about nature speaking itself into existence and gradually turning itself into humans with consciousness with which to contemplate itself.  Anything to escape accountability to our creator, so that we can be the gods of our own lives.

A temple holds that which is Most Holy, whether it be a building or a body.  And men have frequently turned it into a place of merchandise instead of worship.  Again, choosing the creation over the creator.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26178473 -

Did the creator make us in a way that our preference is to live for the flesh?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: falcon] * 1
    #26190168 -

Creation creates itself.  Everyone wants a starting point but there isn't one.  Time just wraps around itself.  There really is no time outside of the over all structure.  It's just another color in the painting.

We have no real idea how huge creation.  Even creation is a politically loaded term.  Existence is a bit more eastern of a term.

People cannot handle the insanity it takes to see creation simply unfold and accept it as just that.  They need a mystery man to explain what is obviously simply complicated.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26191277 -

Morel Guy said:
Creation creates itself.  Everyone wants a starting point but there isn't one.  Time just wraps around itself.  There really is no time outside of the over all structure.  It's just another color in the painting.

We have no real idea how huge creation.  Even creation is a politically loaded term.  Existence is a bit more eastern of a term.

People cannot handle the insanity it takes to see creation simply unfold and accept it as just that.  They need a mystery man to explain what is obviously simply complicated.


What is so complicated about it?  You're just making nature your god.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26191282 -

No, God is an extremely loaded term.

There are no entities making fateful judgments.  There is no intelligent force.  Sure it may be fun to speculate and day dream, creating myth.  Yet it is very toxic to have convictions without anymore substance than myth.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26192500 -

Who/what created the creator?


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26192624 -

He always existed cause his penis power is epic


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #26193031 -

the term supernatural implies something outside of nature, when using the term supernatural one is simply referring to some force of nature not yet understood, that force is the Mind

through Mind we realize Nothing exists and becomes everything now

this is the nature of creation


--------------------
evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil

freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26195093 -

Morel Guy said:
No, God is an extremely loaded term.

There are no entities making fateful judgments.  There is no intelligent force.  Sure it may be fun to speculate and day dream, creating myth.  Yet it is very toxic to have convictions without anymore substance than myth.


And so this supposed un-intelligent directionless eternal-nature-being has a tendency to occasionally spit out highly intelligent forces called humans who discuss philosophy over the internet.

When we don't want to believe in God, we'll believe in anything.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: killingravensun]
    #26195136 -

killingravensun said:
the term supernatural implies something outside of nature, when using the term supernatural one is simply referring to some force of nature not yet understood, that force is the Mind


A software-designer would be super-natural compared to the nature of the encoded laws of their computer program. 

Humans, though bodily bound to physial law, actually interact in the realm of the supernatural constantly.
Ideas like love, sacrifice, honor, good & evil, transgression, justice, etc. are written all over our hearts, yet cannot be accounted for in the material realm...  Like God, we know these are real things and live by them daily, but we pretend they aren't real because we can't find a material source for them.  We can't find those ideas in the code of nature.

So we believe in all the beautiful things around us, but we don't believe in the Beautiful itself.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26195174 -

saved7 said:
A software-designer would be super-natural compared to the nature of the encoded laws of their computer program. 

Humans, though bodily bound to physial law, actually interact in the realm of the supernatural constantly.
Ideas like love, sacrifice, honor, good & evil, transgression, justice, etc. are written all over our hearts, yet cannot be accounted for in the material realm...  Like God, we know these are real things and live by them daily, but we pretend they aren't real because we can't find a material source for them.  We can't find those ideas in the code of nature.

So we believe in all the beautiful things around us, but we don't believe in the Beautiful itself.


you have made excuses for wasting a lot of time looking for a programmer, and rather than correcting your ways, you are trying to enlist others to follow the wonky god march.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26195214 -

saved7 said:
Morel Guy said:
No, God is an extremely loaded term.

There are no entities making fateful judgments.  There is no intelligent force.  Sure it may be fun to speculate and day dream, creating myth.  Yet it is very toxic to have convictions without anymore substance than myth.


And so this supposed un-intelligent directionless eternal-nature-being has a tendency to occasionally spit out highly intelligent forces called humans who discuss philosophy over the internet.

When we don't want to believe in God, we'll believe in anything.



It's not directionless, it goes in every direction it can (as in provided by prior setting).  Humans simply project a lot, it causes a great deal of our problems.  Mostly we don't know how to change our projecting and most tools that do that are illegal.  Probably because it does go every which way.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26195466 -

saved7 said:
killingravensun said:
the term supernatural implies something outside of nature, when using the term supernatural one is simply referring to some force of nature not yet understood, that force is the Mind


A software-designer would be super-natural compared to the nature of the encoded laws of their computer program.


not at all, your statement even implies such, "their computer program", the system is predicated on several components, computers are a simple tool that is useless without a programmer, maybe you use a computer without realizing there is a programmer but that does not make the programmer a force unrelated to the system


--------------------
evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil

freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26195792 -

saved7 said:
killingravensun said:
the term supernatural implies something outside of nature, when using the term supernatural one is simply referring to some force of nature not yet understood, that force is the Mind


A software-designer would be super-natural compared to the nature of the encoded laws of their computer program. 

Humans, though bodily bound to physial law, actually interact in the realm of the supernatural constantly.
Ideas like love, sacrifice, honor, good & evil, transgression, justice, etc. are written all over our hearts, yet cannot be accounted for in the material realm...  Like God, we know these are real things and live by them daily, but we pretend they aren't real because we can't find a material source for them.  We can't find those ideas in the code of nature.

So we believe in all the beautiful things around us, but we don't believe in the Beautiful itself.


Can you provide any evidence that human emotions and abstract concepts exist in "supernatural"?  No you can't.      https://simplicable.com/new/abstract-concept

Let's be very clear- human emotions and thoughts exist in the physical world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion

Human ideas exist in human brains, human brains exist in the physical world. There's nothing supernatural about it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26195913 -

nevertheless, there are higher conscious states and transcendent spaces [and "timeless" spaces, at that].

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: killingravensun]
    #26195918 -

killingravensun said:
saved7 said:
killingravensun said:
the term supernatural implies something outside of nature, when using the term supernatural one is simply referring to some force of nature not yet understood, that force is the Mind


A software-designer would be super-natural compared to the nature of the encoded laws of their computer program.


not at all, your statement even implies such, "their computer program", the system is predicated on several components, computers are a simple tool that is useless without a programmer, maybe you use a computer without realizing there is a programmer but that does not make the programmer a force unrelated to the system


The computer program is based on a framework of laws (e.g. collision detection for objects in a videogame)... and the human designer is totally outside of those laws, or "supernatural" relative to the nature of the program.  It's an analogy.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26195953 -

akira_akuma said:
nevertheless, there are higher conscious states and transcendent spaces [and "timeless" spaces, at that].


"timeless" spaces.  I'm assuming you're referring to black holes.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26195982 -

analogy fail, the entirety of the computer system is a known structure, programmers are part of that system, they are in no way outside of the system

nature is the universe, agreed?

the creator of the universe is the mind, hence part of the universe, both the mystic and scientist know this

if there is anything apart from the universe it cannot be known, it cannot even be speculated about

the closest you can get to the "supernatural" is to consider that a Nothing exists, a framework of reality that precedes our existence, and all matter is made of electric charge swirling around this Nothing

there is only the moment of now, which is the moment of creation, so the universe is always,created by Mind without beginning forever


--------------------
evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil

freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26196001 -

I believe he means perception with a bent perspective of time.

Messing with the brain can do all sorts of stuff.  The power of the brain is unknown.  People have claimed to experienced extremes.  Religious states, times of great stress, fine tuning mind function, so on.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26196003 -

elsewhere in the universe there are better processors of Mind energy than human brains


--------------------
evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil

freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26196254 -

qman said:
saved7 said:
killingravensun said:
the term supernatural implies something outside of nature, when using the term supernatural one is simply referring to some force of nature not yet understood, that force is the Mind


A software-designer would be super-natural compared to the nature of the encoded laws of their computer program. 

Humans, though bodily bound to physial law, actually interact in the realm of the supernatural constantly.
Ideas like love, sacrifice, honor, good & evil, transgression, justice, etc. are written all over our hearts, yet cannot be accounted for in the material realm...  Like God, we know these are real things and live by them daily, but we pretend they aren't real because we can't find a material source for them.  We can't find those ideas in the code of nature.

So we believe in all the beautiful things around us, but we don't believe in the Beautiful itself.


Can you provide any evidence that human emotions and abstract concepts exist in "supernatural"?  No you can't.      https://simplicable.com/new/abstract-concept

Let's be very clear- human emotions and thoughts exist in the physical world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion

Human ideas exist in human brains, human brains exist in the physical world. There's nothing supernatural about it.


even though we can't measure those ideas - human thoughts and emotions - by physical means, can't we still detect their signals?

...lingering in a plane above us, reality descends through frequency to become dense enough to become material reality.

the highest domain being the Divine - and from here energy flows downward to the domains below, where it provides instruction/information

as akira said, each sphere occupies a different time-space domain.  there is a hierarchical organization - and vibration - the physical just being the one that people seem to know best based on their experience with five basic senses.

the lowest domain would be the strictly physical domain that occupies a positive time-space frame that is mainly electrical, the realm where entropy increases as time passes

the domain immediately above the physical is a negative time-space domain and is highly magnetic, more order is established here as potential increases and entropy decreases

this zero-point field is a sea and a crossroads of energy, where atomic motion is stopped allowing it to transmit energy with no time lapse.

it is "hidden", yet the idea of "sacrifice" becomes real, and leaves the state of a hidden potential, when the mind brings into reality the thoughts and experiences of the moment through the agency of will.

we pull down from the negative time-space domain the "lost information".

to do this our minds transcends the material and leave behind the constraints of space and time.

may be if culture reformed its ideas about what a human beings is,

we could drop the debate about the above phenomena being one of material vs. spiritual,

and ask what the phenomenon tells us about the nature of reality.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26196364 -

thealienthatategod said:
...lingering in a plane above us, reality descends through frequency to become dense enough to become material reality.

the highest domain being the Divine - and from here energy flows downward to the domains below, where it provides instruction/information


there is no disconnect between "the divine" and the human, this popular misconception causes much confusion, the divine that instructs is the voice of your conscience, if you form a good relationship it will provide answers, this relationship building is/was the purpose of all religions, long removed from most organized religions today


--------------------
evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil

freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26196390 -

akira_akuma said:
nevertheless, there are higher conscious states and transcendent spaces [and "timeless" spaces, at that].


higher consciousness is an activity of the brain, in the body.
experiences of time and space are also electrical activity in the brain and body.
often unusual perceptions of space or time relate to the brain when it is affected by emotion or drugs.
so
?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: killingravensun]
    #26196487 -

the distinctions of domains is only to separate the parts to allow for the examination from a limited POV.

to create a foundation of understanding, i personally need an explanation of the assemblage of units, vs being able to start a foundation by grasping the notion that "all is one".

when trying to understand the consequence of my own being, i need to see the engine that drives the underlying structure.

by grasping onto the separation of unity, i come into a threshold where my mind can then trancend it.

a direct relationship sounds wonderful, but the message is restrained by the limits of our minds.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26196578 -

thealienthatategod said:
the distinctions of domains is only to separate the parts to allow for the examination from a limited POV.


you see what you want to see, you are who you want to be

thealienthatategod said:
to create a foundation of understanding, i personally need an explanation of the assemblage of units, vs being able to start a foundation by grasping the notion that "all is one".


the "all is one" bullshit is a lazy way of dismissing "the other", the universe is infinite diversity, piece it together however you want

thealienthatategod said:
when trying to understand the consequence of my own being, i need to see the engine that drives the underlying structure.


your mind is the engine, thoughts are the only reality

thealienthatategod said:
by grasping onto the separation of unity, i come into a threshold where my mind can then trancend it.


disjointed

thealienthatategod said:
a direct relationship sounds wonderful, but the message is restrained by the limits of our minds.


the mind has no limit.


--------------------
evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil

freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: killingravensun]
    #26196764 -

Killingravesun essentially took everything I was going to say. Spot on.


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: killingravensun]
    #26196870 -

thealienthatategod said:
the distinctions of domains is only to separate the parts to allow for the examination from a limited POV.


killingravensun said:
you see what you want to see, you are who you want to be


it is true, the mind has no limits, yet it appears to when an individual runs into boundaries thanks to the constraints of thought that a mind perceives.

in this sense the limits are very real for the individual that has created them.

killingravensun said:
disjointed


yes, i used the phrase "separation of unity" to articulate disjointedness.

killingravensun said:
the "all is one" bullshit is a lazy way of dismissing "the other", the universe is infinite diversity, piece it together however you want


my reply agreed with your assessment that there is no separation from the divine, but the gap of disjointedness* must be bridged, according to an individual's unique perspective.

((*to the mind which contains thoughts that perceives this separation))

i was also was attempting to elucidate the fact that for those that choose to lack the constitution to have faith,

to believe in the (seemingly) impossible means descending down many rabbit holes.

in these isolated parts, experiences and observations transform the impossible into the probable.

the perception of a new truth is born in a black hole.

my personal assessment of togetherness is expressed in first experiencing being acquainted to all disparate parts, and forming bridges so there are no separate domains or points.

then with this new perception, i can step outside of time, to defy gravity and ascend from the black hole.

in this universe, the experience of becoming is much more powerful than the experience of being.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26196982 -

the structure of your mind and consciousness is not the same structure as that of the universe
but it is a subset of the latter


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: killingravensun]
    #26197089 -

killingravensun said:
analogy fail, the entirety of the computer system is a known structure, programmers are part of that system, they are in no way outside of the system


The analogy works fine.  Sure, both the human engineer and the computer program exist in the same reality.  But the human stands far outside the law imposed on his program.

This is analogous to the distinction between the physical law of the material world, and the author of that physical law.  Just as we would never expect a human programmer to be bound by the laws of his binary computer code, we would not expect the author of physical law to be bound by that physical law.

This is a pretty straightforward point, and you haven't provided any counter-argument to it as far as I can see.  You'd just rather lump everything together and ignore the logical distinctions.

Quote:
killingravensun said:nature is the universe, agreed?

the creator of the universe is the mind, hence part of the universe, both the mystic and scientist know this

if there is anything apart from the universe it cannot be known, it cannot even be speculated about

the closest you can get to the "supernatural" is to consider that a Nothing exists, a framework of reality that precedes our existence, and all matter is made of electric charge swirling around this Nothing


I agree somewhat.  There is obviously, obviously, an intelligent mind behind the origin of the physical universe.  People who can't accept that are simply in denial, in my opinion.  They know the truth but want to pretend it isn't so.

I don't follow the rest of your argument for reasons already stated above.  There is a clear distinction between being created under the physical law and being the author above the physical law.

Quote:
killingravensun said:there is only the moment of now, which is the moment of creation, so the universe is always,created by Mind without beginning forever


People here seem to really not like the idea that the universe had a beginning.  I wonder why that is.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26197175 -

Actually curious, what makes it so obvious?
What do you see around you that just screams intelligent creator?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26197204 -

I don't think that we're born knowing anything at all. We come into the world a blank slate. Babies and adults are also full of all kinds of delusions, and are easily fooled by all sorts of subconscious biases.

The whole idea of a supernatural creator is absurd, and there is absolutely no evidence for it. It's a collective delusion left over from thousands of years ago when people had no idea how the world actually worked, so they just went with whatever fantasies they came up with. It's no different than mythology. Now that we know at least a little about how the world works, we need to abandon these fantasies and face the reality of the world we live in.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26198694 -

redgreenvines said:
the structure of your mind and consciousness is not the same structure as that of the universe
but it is a subset of the latter


so do you think the universe itself has consciousness?

and if so, what is the primary difference between its consciousness and ours?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26198846 -

I'd assert you are the "beginning", the "end", the all, the now. The Absolute. "Reality" is a function of consciousness. It doesn't require a creator. Only man's lower intellect requires causal explanations, which at their root are irrational assumptions.

Consciousness has always been. There is no need for a creator. It's already infinite and absolute. An extension of an absolute (consciousness/god) is that absolute (consciousness/god). There is your god. You are the creator. There is no "reality" outside of you.

If anything this is a subset of a dream-like projection. When you dream at night, all of the events, people, places and circumstances are happening inside of your consciousness. You are the projector and the container simultaneously. This is what your dreams are showing you, if only we paid more attention to that part. Waking reality is another superset of that, albeit it more consensual (your SELF relative to OTHER SELFS (ultimately still "YOU" from another "angle")). Mushrooms take you to another superset. DMT will take you to the top (I assume; I haven't gone that "far" yet) of what's possible from "this level".

These "drugs" are teachers and guides, that again, your consciousness itself is a prerequisite in order to experience and learn from in the first place. In order for you to grow and learn - for that to have any meaning or efficacy - you have to be the existential center; the constant; the only constant frame of reference you ever have; you're existentially anchored. Everything else "changes around you". That right there is a huge cosmic giggle if there ever was one IMHO. They (psychs) literally expand your consciousness, showing you more and more how "the source" is ultimately "one thing", and that "one thing" is ultimately "YOU". No supernatural creator required.

Edited by Loaded Shaman (09/20/19 08:25 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26198861 -

Supernatural is not transcending nature.  It's all nature and in your power to use your brain.  It is all nature.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26198921 -

qman said:
akira_akuma said:
nevertheless, there are higher conscious states and transcendent spaces [and "timeless" spaces, at that].


"timeless" spaces.  I'm assuming you're referring to black holes.


maybe. some people hypothesize some pretty radical things about black holes, and why not? they jar our very conception of reality, and how we understand it. my point is, why not? but alas, i'm not necessarily talking about black holes, though.

nooneman said:
It's no different than mythology. Now that we know at least a little about how the world works, we need to abandon these fantasies and face the reality of the world we live in.


myth is what makes the world. you think people really are how they truly are, without the various make-ups of programming within society, civilization, culture? you think without interaction we would be the same creatures, that is, without the expectations of being meet with social others? myth makes up the psyche of a man, and woman. myth makes up the social logos. myth makes up the entire psychology of mankind. rather important subject matter to apprehend.

redgreenvines said:
akira_akuma said:
nevertheless, there are higher conscious states and transcendent spaces [and "timeless" spaces, at that].


higher consciousness is an activity of the brain, in the body.
experiences of time and space are also electrical activity in the brain and body.
often unusual perceptions of space or time relate to the brain when it is affected by emotion or drugs.
so?


so what? what about this is uninteresting to you? the notion of consciousness being "simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain" just makes perception even more fascinating and less typical that it would appear to the naked eye...because if it's all perception, and nothing more, the world we see, nakedly, is not what the world is, period. if the world is what we see, as such, then the make-up of the brains wiring is less so impressive, but altogether, said make-up does allow for some impressive feats of reality.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26198934 -

Meditation pretty much teaches how we project our perception.  If you are pissy it becomes obvious how projecting brings like trouble.

Changing perception has created a lot of myth.  We never really drop imagination living, just look at it's power with children.  Yet we still cannot heal or brainwash entirely.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26198991 -

thealienthatategod said:
redgreenvines said:
the structure of your mind and consciousness is not the same structure as that of the universe
but it is a subset of the latter


so do you think the universe itself has consciousness?

and if so, what is the primary difference between its consciousness and ours?


the universe houses billions of conscious creatures but has no consciousness per-se itself separate from the beings living within it. It is not an entity.

the minds of each being, however, are able to sense aspects of the universe, both near and far, and can act accordingly - this multi-being-choreography can seem to be a co-ordinated activity, lending to the illusion of one larger mind at play, but that is the work of the mind of the viewer, not the imagined mind of the universe at large which has no mechanism to create or recall associative memories of its own.

the ability to add experiences to a memory system, and to recall related memories with new experiences (i.e. to have perceptions and reflections) is essential to any view of consciousness.

one could even say that if no associative memory is formed during sensation then there is no consciousness happening - experience at that point is merely events, collisions - simple physics.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26199106 -

Morel Guy said:
Meditation pretty much teaches how we project our perception.  If you are pissy it becomes obvious how projecting brings like trouble.


yeah, this is called "karma". [might as well use the term, it is older than dirt, and is a wide-ranging matrix of abstract factors of consideration, in other words, it's highly complex.]

Quote:
Changing perception has created a lot of myth.  We never really drop imagination living, just look at it's power with children.  Yet we still cannot heal or brainwash entirely.


maybe these words are just mythological as much as anything else?

who is to say that culture isn't the most real a reality can get? maybe people running solo doesn't exactly help a individual's psyche. then again, maybe a culture growing too large [into a "civilization", ie, that which we have been left with; a mish-mash of cultures under a "reign" of "sovereignty" -- right-wingers' heads would activate the automatic blinders/earmuff controls, here]. maybe with too large a culture, structures become atomized, and the [so-called] "superstructure" becomes the new myth [or metanarrative].

so where do we draw the line?

and yes, a "healing" is something that is found in all the traditions [funnily enough] -- maybe concerning [underlying the oblique "context" with which we find these older myths] a psychological trauma on a mass-scale? this could be based on fact [the continents are supposedly re-forming in the pan-continent of the earliest era, that is, at some long distant future] of some geological proportion. or it could be merely a symbology.

"brainwashing", that is another story. but this is the crux of my contentions...

is it "brainwashing" to have a culture, or a family, or just to even be an individual; where do we draw the line [in other words, is it more apt of a "human quality"? or an "innate quality"? which is preferable, even?], and why do we draw this supposed line? or do we need a line? is the family not as such "brainwashing" in the negative sense [though it instills views on a person], or is the culture[s] of the world not "brainwashing", as such, too? etc.

where did the first tremors of the first myths/symbols occur, and why? [as i've said before, the first nursery rhyme was probably pretty weird.]



Quote:
one could even say that if no associative memory is formed during sensation then there is no consciousness happening - experience at that point is merely events, collisions - simple physics.



the conscious mind doesn't have simple physics.

Edited by akira_akuma (09/20/19 11:58 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26199136 -

saved7 said:
But the human stands far outside the law imposed on his program.


a hammer is bound by the "law" that created it but is not a subset of the laws of nature that binds the both the hammer and the hammerer, computers are fancy tools that are part of the same system of laws everything else in the universe is subject to, your inability to see the connection is a learned response to not knowing how reality is formed which causes thoughts of some mysterious force being responsible

saved7 said:
This is analogous to the distinction between the physical law of the material world, and the author of that physical law.


the distiction is simply your opinion, quantum physics is beginning to teach the materialists that consciousness creates physical reality, there is no need for other causality, i know that understanding infinity and an infinite universe is difficult but the task is easier when you start with what is known instead of inventing unknowns

saved7 said:
Just as we would never expect a human programmer to be bound by the laws of his binary computer code,


once again, yes the human programmer is bound by code laws otherwise he cannot interact meaningfully with the computer, its a system and if you dont follow the code law then a computer is just a fancy rock

saved7 said:
we would not expect the author of physical law to be bound by that physical law.


an empty assertion, if the mind creates the law then it is also bound by them, but it can change the law, so it is not bound by law, this is the nature of an infinite unverse

saved7 said:
There is obviously, obviously, an intelligent mind behind the origin of the physical universe.


yes, yours, in every moment of now

saved7 said:
There is a clear distinction between being created under the physical law and being the author above the physical law.


no there is not and you havent shown one, your assertions are not evidence

saved7 said:
People here seem to really not like the idea that the universe had a beginning.  I wonder why that is.


because it is without evidence, all intelligence on the subject suggests an infinite universe


--------------------
evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil

freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26199178 -

I don't relate to the last you wrote. 

Brainwashing made sense and still makes sense in 'tribal' situations.  Karma is just another way of looking at complex nature simply.  There will always be side effects of action.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26199282 -

well, these concepts are able to be extrapolated upon much more nowadays, so, good.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26199480 -

akira_akuma said:
...the notion of consciousness being "simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain" ...


hello, this erroneous idea is at root of the problem.

consciousness is not electrical signals being interpreted by the brain, the brain does not interpret while instantaneously perceiving i.e. it is not an intermediary to a next module or to another organ or another living being.
perception is a one step matching in most cases.
Consider:
Electrical field patterns result from several contemporaneous sensory signal pulses while resonating in the cerebral cortex (and forming new memories - dendrite and axon growth occurs in the resonating synapses).
These 2-d interference patterns directly match  (the match is in the geometry of the electrical interference field) the pattern of memories which are momentarily reactivated.
this is direct associative recall not interpreted but perceived using innate pattern association. (the structure and function of the brain and how it is hooked to the senses supports this innate pattern association and resonant memory fixation)
however,
a person could struggle to perform interpretation of what they see and what they remember in terms that relate to some other task or scheme, and this process (which also uses associative infrastructure of the brain) is more complex effort laden and less instantaneous.

the brain can do both, but consciousness really only requires experiencing and perceiving - interpreting is a big extra plus.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26199600 -

indeed. well, i didn't say that the notion is [and i'm paraphrasing here] 'that which "simply [are] electrical signals interpreted, etc..." '.

i said that either way, "the hard problem of consciousness" [similarly to the "problematic of being"], is interesting from that perspective or the one i previously outlined. i never meant to imply [to you] that consciousness is "a notion [simply, electrical] signals interpreted by your brain". so you didn't need to explain this otherwise fascinating stuff, to respond to me...or did you?

i guess maybe you did!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26199644 -

:soundsgoodman:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26199705 -

You lost me on that.

Yet it does seem power is an issue and what to use that for when death is looming.  It seems just to make an effort to understand and have peace woth that, is life's work.

So much of life is logistic and while I do suscribe to the reality there is far more to existance than we perceive....there is no ego in this as much as interest.  Who wouldn't be interested in survival?

Just what of us survives seems to be beyond us.  The brain can handle only so much.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26200791 -

I was trying to avoid modeling an addition of an extra step for basic consciousness, so if you got anything from my reply to a fragment of your post - great!

if I were to distill it further, the term "perceptiveness" would come close to consciousness, since it includes both memory formation and memory matching of a sensory stream.

further to that one might measure perceptiveness or the associative reactivity of a creature to come to an assessment of it's consciousness.

How to measure that would take even more skill and understanding since, some of the most conscious among us practice non-reactive meditation, which highlights another important issue.

In mind, perception, which is the unstoppable automatic recognition or instant association of like memories to current mental contents (from senses and ideas), can be surfed with equanimity by following the breath.
The mere perceptions occur, but the mind is focused on breath so as not to trip out on every distracting side trip.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26203264 -

sure, i don't disagree with you there. just like before- you know this, right? i mean, you just wanted to extrapolate from what i had written, but that's fine, as long as you're not mistaken in thinking i was endorsing that exact thing you quoted as some kind of truth; because i was actually [obviously] making a counterpoint against that notion you so delicately pointed out.

also:

relevant blog, very interesting:

https://www.minds.com/perihelion0/blog/super-memeplex-dynamics-and-their-exploits-1002989355742429184

but more so of import- i wrote this, so i can use this as a direct response....

To be honest, the insinuation of "believing fantasies" seems to be part and parcel to the human condition. I've determined, regardless of philosophic principal [or perhaps an overly sophistic principal?] that whether "God" exists or not [which is up in the air], what we can definitely deduce from what we can glean for sure, is that we have invented a lot of things, in general, to merely survive; including states of being that would, in essence, defend the tribal psyche, and so, with that you can see a definite thing- but here's what's more- we can see [being sussed as early as the wisdom literature of all the preeminent faiths] that language and the interpretation of what semioticians call "signs" [or what could be called the phenomenon of the mind and it's aggregates, that is, it's faculties, like imagination, and it's mechanical cogitations, like various reactions to stimuli], these things play a role in ancient thinking, as well as mythical cycles and poetry. You can see from the anthropological data, and ethnosociological data [which I'd prefer when studying this particular direction of the human race], that these kind of mnemonics and various representations, and also the multifarious reactions/interactions, form the quest of mankind thru a certain field of knowledge, and that knowledge can be said to be "transcendent" [wisdom] from the mere advance of the idea that we, in effect, experience ourselves subjectively, and consciousness is self-conscious of itself only insofar as it is what is is in it's existence, being.

Edited by akira_akuma (09/22/19 05:31 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26204984 -

also there is the notion of "kia" or pure perception, will, and consciousness, in certain schools of "magical" thought [cf. Austin Osman Spare]. which has been adjusted in post-Chaos magick [or so i've read in journals] to 'kiu' which, funnily enough, can be interpreted as a declension from the root 'tiu', from the Nordic rune word for ... well, "roots of the Yule tree"....

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26204992 -

akira_akuma said:
...consciousness is self-conscious of itself only insofar as it is what is is in it's existence, being.


what does this declaration mean?
it bothers me because it is the final set of words which usually would sum things up.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26232781 -

The egg, right? Whatever was right before the chicken in the evolutionary timeline laid an egg one day and then a chicken popped out of it. My uncle was there he said it was gross.


--------------------
Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defense each year, and instead spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we can explore space together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

-Bill Hicks

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Yando]
    #26232990 -

a long time ago, right.
maybe things are different now.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26242378 -

saved7 said:
We all have an inborn awareness that nature had a creator.  Nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature.  This truth is literally staring us in the face, every day, all day.....


Totally wrong.
Because some folks are uncomfortable, with paradox and mystery, they attempt to build a belief system within which they can feel safe.

But not all people, the best example, are those who practice "Don't know mind" meditation.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Don%27t+know+mind%22+meditation.&t=h_&ia=web

Psychologically  attempting to build a belief system within which they can feel safe, is roughly the same tactic used by victims of trauma and abuse to disassociate from and repress the traumatizing event(s).

Belief systems about God as creator, always attempt to repress the question every 4 year old asks : "And who created God"? One cannot imagine a beginning to time.
Those who find that the mystery of life and existence adds some charm to it, are fundamentally different from those who are unconsciously frightened of the unknown.

How are they different? One type of personality radiates imagination, openness, curiosity, flexibility and independence. The other rigidity, dependence, etc.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26243255 -

redgreenvines said:
akira_akuma said:
...consciousness is self-conscious of itself only insofar as it is what is is in it's existence, being.


what does this declaration mean?
it bothers me because it is the final set of words which usually would sum things up.


it's just an encapsulation of what experience consists of, which is what it is.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26243387 -

akira_akuma said:
consciousness is self-conscious of itself only insofar as it is what is is in it's existence, being.


Viewing 'Original Sin' as a rebellion could clarify this 'Being' as a state where the ego meets opposition. If I may wax fanciful I'll compare reality with a soup stock made from celery (speed) carrots (desire) and onions (tears). Rebellion (rebullion cubes) might intrinsically change reality back to a consistency of -No change- No haste- and -No tears- which might be inferred to be the climate before the Original Rebellion.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26243441 -

yes, in the preremptory sort of metaphysics of human thought, i'd tend to the sort of perspective you've outlined. it's the "demon-stration".

see, you've done it just now, but it's so abstruse what you've said, because of it's context, and at once, so "animistic" [brain-soup], that it's hard to address the entire point- even though you've encapsulated it.

i liken it to a nursery rhyme that never stopped trying to devour itself.

or a "craft" of some sort which needs be "parsed"- for which i have another demonstration for: i call it the 'dialectics of fuck', and it goes like this, you have two columns,

I did it | Not you
White dog|Black dog
Zoe      |        Bios
Inspiration/Survival


you see there is a sort dialectic within a dialectic [meta...] with the reference to dogs [ie, which dog can break free from it's leash is that which you feed the most] -- so there is an inherent choice [free-will].

then there are the dynamics of zoe [life] and bios [basic operation] (my reference isn't to the theory by Giorgio Agamben, which differs in it's distinction between the two forces, here. the main difference being an inverse of the aspect/notion of "zoe" is called "bare life", and "bios" is a "particular qualified life", which i put into the dynamics between the aspects of "inspiration" & "survival" as an adaptation to my model here).

then there is the aspects of survival meets inspiration- as either/or [another distinction made frequently] factors in a mode of existence; "being" then can be extrapolated as a "prison" or "suffering" without having an output for either of the above at, nor a distinct sense of it's existence; so the body adapts in some other way, usually by some actions which lead to a complex apoptosis].

then there is the aspect i've called the "i did it : not you" dichotomy, which is an adaptation of the ich-du (I–thou) and ich-es (I–it) concept of Martin Buber- which is in full reads: "i did 'it'[the action] [therefore i am the action, and therefore, ] not you."

in this dialectic i wish to evince the notion of a subjective AND objective spirit to the individual AND the collective, at once, and for all.

it's a work in progress.....

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26244136 -

this description of your work in progress reminds me of staring through an intensely wrought goblet:


does it feel familiar?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26244329 -

It reminds me of an old buddy who made a version of kings cup with tarot cards that had 72 rules. We were all plastered in 20 minutes.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8  [ show all ]

Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers...
( 1 2 3 all )		 Swami 5,525 46 08/23/03 09:10 PM
by MindTrap
* The nature of self-serving beliefs
( 1 2 all )		 Anonymous 7,702 28 10/13/02 12:12 AM
by johnnyfive
* Death Goddesses, World Creators, and Globalists Syngenor 1,377 2 05/27/01 06:45 PM
by Syngenor
* Nature SkorpivoMusterion 390 0 11/07/04 07:25 PM
by SkorpivoMusterion
* You as Creator Revelation 1,616 12 03/04/02 06:33 PM
by Timeleech
* Did our creator forget to tell us what we are here for... Droz 686 11 06/24/04 03:46 PM
by deff
* Sadean literature and nature MokshaMan 1,461 6 09/30/01 01:25 AM
by Jellric
* Physics website poll on the supernatural
( 1 2 all )		 Swami 2,514 24 06/17/05 12:31 AM
by Sclorch

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,738 topic views. 1 members, 98 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.079 seconds spending 0.013 seconds on 16 queries.