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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26170943 -

Quote:
"When men no longer believe in god they will believe in anything"

, therefore to control the minds of men you give them a book and demonstrate how to pray and then you can keep control of them...

thus was it sold to the Emperor.

whom do you serve in your belief?

whom do you want us to serve by not believing in anything we find more fitting.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26171774 -

Replace god with the state and you have the same deal, though.

Religion vs secular is the oldest false dichotomy in the book. I think it's even etched in adamantine at this point.

People demand to be led. It's biological. The trick is being led by the right philosophy, which will almost never happen because that's bad business.

Get the people to believe in the concept of a creator, but make sure they are programmed simultaneously with an irrational creation myth to hinge to it (so incomplete idea #1: "god" created everything in 7 days, out of nowhere).

Pose it up against an antipodal philosophy (natural law/materialist science), another incomplete system of deduction (everything came from nothing in a single instant for no reason!).

Two half baked recipes mired in causal determinism, each lacking the nutrition required to see shit clearly enough to sort shit out, and that's the point IMHO.

Whatever's going on will most certainly be more than the sum of the parts of the philosophies/cosmologies handed down from the priests of scientism and shills of Calvinist bullshit disguises as religious rapture/freedom, etc. I have a big ass thread coming that covers all my seemingly-unhinged positions.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26171850 -

why does this particular universe even exsist?

(question posed to noone in particular)

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26171970 -

"why?", is the question that we get from our kids, nearly all knee jerk responses to "why" are partial soothers. such answers often involve an agency and it's whims or guilt.

"what?" and "how?" are the more scientific (adult) questions which support models of consistent cohesive interplay of what is understood through evidence and experimentation.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26172866 -

thealienthatategod said:
why does this particular universe even exsist?

(question posed to noone in particular)


Best guess.. because something/somewhere is capable of creating it.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26172901 -

what is a meaningful question? ...


science invents theories which illustrate models which embody our ideas about what nature is....

a model tells us the HOW, and let's us explore the implications of an idea.

they are based on,

a hypothesis,

which tells us the WHAT, and is a pronouncement that can be tested -

for example, Eisenstein hypothesized about gravitational waves in General Relativity, but it wasn't until LIGO confirmed their existence through observation in 2015 that they were confirmed by measurement

a principal is the WHY, a specification to guide and restrict the form of nature -

for example, The Principal of Relativity.

if we start with the how we may get stuck in conjectures that are incomplete part and parcel models that can at best make approximations.

if we start with the a hypothesis we now have a simple true or false assertion.

starting with the principals means requiring restrictions about natures form.

...time is fundamental to causality

we can only answer why when the why comes from a causal process that has evolved in time

however, if the laws of nature are outside of time, they will not be the result of a process of causation

to answer the why of something that is timeless would mean being able to explain the cause of something that is not influenceable.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26172965 -

Guessing is the same as saying one doesn't know. Except for those who admit ignorance it seems everyone is guessing.

Therefore, nobody knows, deep down or otherwise.

Then I suspect those who profess to know are con men. Con themselves. Con others. Seeking validation for their feelings, or power or money.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Rahz]
    #26173003 -

Well the “universe” exists.  Evidently.  Consequently something is creating it or its being created within something.  We can’t prove what this thing is.  Therefore we call it supernatural.  :shrug:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26173021 -

In order for a thing to exist it must be made? This seems like anthropomorphizing the universe. Maybe creation is a human concept that doesn't really exist outside our minds. Maybe everything just happens to exist.

It makes no more or less sense than the idea of a creator.

So maybe let's not try to hard to make sense of things, lest we end up being FOS and then becoming con men to hide our shame or profit off the ignorance of others.

I don't know. :shrug:


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Rahz]
    #26173029 -

I mean, I know it's a natural tendancy to explain things, which could extend into the unexplainable. Should one assume everything is explainable? I think such assumptions are what drive us to examine phenomena more closely and create new paradigms. It's also what prompted people to suggest the Sun was a god.

So in practice it's probably good to suspect all phenomena are explainable with the right information.

But the universe as a whole, and the deeper meaning of phenomena don't seem to have rational explanations. A phenomena can be explained within the context of it's environment, but this doesn't explain why the environment exists. In order to explain an environment we much look to see a larger environment. This rationality ultimately falls apart. If existence is supposed to describe everything then there's no enviornment in which it rests. Therefore we can only decide we don't know, or we can make up something and describe it as the supernatural, which there will be absolutely no proof for.

That's why the "great cause" might get described as darkness, emptiness, formlessness, in an attempt to keep things honest.

But we don't really know, do we?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Rahz]
    #26173039 -

It doesn’t fall apart.  If the universe wasn’t created by something then it’s existed eternally.  I don’t see what the problem is here.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26173090 -

Well, I'm talking about existence rather than the universe, which does seem to have an inception and an ultimate heat death. If space and time are properties of matter then the universe will eventually dissolve into nothingness. So there does seem to be something more fundamental than the universe, but if space and time are used to describe eternity, and they are properties of matter and universes which aren't eternal, then we don't really know if existence is eternal, except to say, we are here, and how can we be here without resting in eternity? It's just a guess. It may use deductive reason but it's still just a guess.

More to the point, whether existence is eternal or not... does it really make sense? If God exists, then God is existence. Why is there a God creating universes? Why would there be a God rather than there not being a God? Why is there existence, rather than their not being an existence? There is no sensible scenario for explaining why there is an existence rather than not, or why there is a particular kind of existance rather than a different kind of existence. If there is a God, why is God like God? There's no environment outside of God/existence to explain why it manifests any particular phenomena.

Perhaps an irrefutable conclusion that existance exists, eternal or not, but that's pretty mystical and magical and mysterious and unexplainable.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Edited by Rahz (09/06/19 07:20 PM)

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Rahz]
    #26173174 -

well something has to be or it isn’t.  Why some things are or are not we may or may not know.  But just because I don’t know something doesn’t make the existence (or lack of) nonsensical.  Shit happens behind our back in ordinary life and we don’t know 99% of it.  I look at the bigger picture similarly.  It’s got a mind of its own.  It’s overextension to demand all answers at once.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26173229 -

In the beginning we thought thunder was a god, we heard his word as a scream in the sky, an often angry one that destroyed cities and lives alike.

Dorian was catastrophic. 

We can admit we don't know the entirety of the universe and are open to the view that there are explanations still within the possibility of being discovered within the next decade. The hope of the largest collider in the world. A 100km particle accelerator and collider ring. For CERN in Europe. Perhaps a third interpretation of the double slit experiment known as collapse theory. As of yet unproven but theoretically probable. 

Is eternity really all that important to you? Because that's why some scientists want to contribute to the knowledge of humanity.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26173511 -

Rahz said:
In order for a thing to exist it must be made? This seems like anthropomorphizing the universe. Maybe creation is a human concept that doesn't really exist outside our minds. Maybe everything just happens to exist.


We're almost on the same page. I'd argue man has to be able to conceptualize his environment, then he makes up labels, names, numbers, etc so he can communicate with others and be productive/useful/whatever arbitrary emotional trigger you want to use. The majority of what people assume are accurate observations are concepts that begin and end in man's mind, even if the math proves a correlation "outside" of us. All of that shit requires being conscious enough to differentiate between "me" and "not me". It starts and ends in your consciousness.

Totally on board with everything just always existing, though. The further I go, the more obvious this becomes for me, shrooms/DMT or not.

To treat the concepts as real = gets us into trouble. To remember the are just concepts = a return to your true power as a human.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26173643 -

to wager wisely we want to know what is behind doors number 1, 2, and 3, before, but until we do we have to guess or participate in some other activity.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26173884 -

Quote:
redgreenvines said: therefore to control the minds of men you give them a book and demonstrate how to pray and then you can keep control of them...



One of the main themes of the Bible is on the tendency of man to corrupt the temple/church for his own benefit.  Hardly the type of theme you'd want to hammer on if you were trying to invent a religion to control people.

If you really want to control people, you do what the world is doing now... teach people that the universe is a meaningless accident, teach people that they're a lump of material, blindly formed without purpose, and then shovel a steady dose of pornography and entertainment at them.


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"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26174296 -

and behind door number 2?


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26174325 -

Lol like people read or believe the bible!
Jesus literally said you are more likely to fit a camel through the eye of a needle than a rich man get into heaven. Guess what rich people did?  Contorted his words to claim the eye of the needle was a gateway and jesus was really just giving travel advice.

You also dont read the bible, it teaches Adam was made from mud and clay. Material of the earth.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26175269 -

saved7 said:
One of the main themes of the Bible is on the tendency of man to corrupt the temple/church for his own benefit.


Is this tendency inborn, if it is it's a natural antagonist to the inborn knowledge that there's a creator. And just so it's clear is temple you are referring to a building or the individual and the group collectively?

Edited by falcon (09/08/19 06:12 PM)

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