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Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Zyiadem]
    #26166482 -

It could matter a lot, especially if getting a good understanding of what is happening, helps people, and the planet we live on.

So far, our unenlightened social operating principles which are based upon christian dogma and hierarchies are wreaking havok in every aspect of our lives.

Yes, the origin question is not going to mean too much to more than a fraction of 1% of people, but fighting to keep hanging on to wrong ideas is not helping anything. It is a bad reality show, like the Apprentice, which no intelligent person would have put on networks. Then again, in ancient Rome, they laughed and cheered at gore in the colosseum. Very lttle progress at the center of the bell curve so far.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Zyiadem]
    #26166594 -

Zyiadem said:
Deep down it doesn't really matter if it was created, unless of course you got a time machine to before the creator died/up and left :shrug: :whatever:


redgreenvines said:
fighting to keep hanging on to wrong ideas is not helping anything. It is a bad reality show,


Subjective assessments of objective reality;


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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26166778 -

Buster_Brown said:
Zyiadem said:
Deep down it doesn't really matter if it was created, unless of course you got a time machine to before the creator died/up and left :shrug: :whatever:


redgreenvines said:
fighting to keep hanging on to wrong ideas is not helping anything. It is a bad reality show,


Subjective assessments of objective reality;




Sorry Mr. Big Brain, That math shit isn't gonna work on my unenlightened ass.

If there was a creator/higher force at work, Then we wouldn't be in a constant state of entropy; hence the creator/higher force must be sick of our shit or gone.
:musky:


--------------------
I don't know shit.
And the more I know,
The more I realize it.

Edited by Zyiadem (09/03/19 12:12 PM)

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26166880 -

this is clearly an abuse of math symbols, but so dramatically pretentious that  you get credit for trying to mystify (which actually means to befog, or fufficate (which is like 'fart'))


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26166900 -

Asking what’s before the big bang is a bit like asking what’s north of the north pole, but wondering what made things come into existence is one of the ages. 

There’s no reason to think the starter of the universe was intelligent, an unintelligent process could just as easily be the start, with so little evidence it’s just which choice makes us feel happy inside.

For those who like to think about this subject and have some math skills, Stephen Hawking had some interesting ideas on Complex-time, where time is modeled not as a single forward moving dimension but as a complex number that includes a vertical non bounded dimension as well.  Allowing for our time, and potentially many others to spring

Current cosmology is composed of the big bang, but also an event right after known as inflation that blew the universe up in size and possibly set the basic structure of the universe into motion.  Without this inflation it’s

So in that case “before” (or in the case of complex-time congruently with) the big bang could have been many failed universes that collapsed back in on themselves the instant they are formed and we live in one of the few that expanded beyond collapse and kept going long enough to make humans to look back and go “Well... how in the fuck?”

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Zyiadem]
    #26167559 -

Zyiadem said:
If there was a creator/higher force at work, Then we wouldn't be in a constant state of entropy; hence the creator/higher force must be sick of our shit or gone.



redgreenvines said:
this is clearly an abuse of math symbols, but so dramatically pretentious that  you get credit for trying to mystify (which actually means to befog, or fufficate (which is like 'fart'))


Given the nature of disputes and the tactics we use to discredit oppositional points of view we might credit a higher intelligence with a capacity to let the horses have their heads as it were and see what destinations their preferences lead to.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26168014 -

I think the idea of a creator is completely irrational. Who created the creator? Infinite regress? If you accept an infinite creator, you already accept the concept of something being infinite and not requiring a creator. The universe is infinite with no beginning or end. Man's perceptions and equations are but self-referential arbitrarily sliced demarcations of our perception of infinity from our finite, existential perspective.


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26168124 -

Loaded Shaman said:
I think the idea of a creator is completely irrational.


Do you think the concept of Power is irrational? No, therefore it's not unreasonable to concede that power can give license to create. A hypothesis limited by limiting the hierarchy of power bearing entities to those of one's own cognizance is just that, limited. Is that irrational?

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26168157 -

Buster_Brown said:
Loaded Shaman said:
I think the idea of a creator is completely irrational.


Do you think the concept of Power is irrational? No, therefore it's not unreasonable to concede that power can give license to create. A hypothesis limited by limiting the hierarchy of power bearing entities to those of one's own cognizance is just that, limited. Is that irrational?


Power is a human mentally constructed concept, as you just admitted in your first sentence, which just like determinism is a concept, and is therefore an abstract, and not an actuality, so yes, any and all philosophical assumptions and presumptions based off of that premise being a metaphysical primary = irrational.

What you and everyone else are actually arguing is determinism. You can't have your metaphysical cake and eat it to. If you believe there is a creator, a "power" or "causal starting force" you're forced to answer this question: who created the creator?

If you believe the Big Bang BS then you're forced to answer: what was before the Big Bang? Nothing? So nothing magically becomes something? Two mutually exclusive existential states going from 0 to 1? Let me guess, natural laws and math cause the unfolding of matter, right? So scientific determinism?

Are you just arbitrarily picking a point along the continuum and deciding that's the start? This is my argument: humans arbitrarily perceive absolute infinity and parse it up so it's useful to them. This is not a bad thing. The bad thing is acting like that's what the nature of reality IS, and we're merely observing it unbiasedly/in a scientific, empirical manner.

We're not. Reason is absent in all of this bullshit and it runs rampant as scientific objective truth because it's hedged by appeals to authority and nihilistic bullshit that everyone gobbles right the fuck up, because a pre-packaged intelligent-sounding answer is more calming than the realization that shit just might exist, has always existed, and will continue to exist and humans are like ephemeral day flies visiting the fruit bowl for their 24 hour existence.

For the scientific determinist (determinism part 1) crowd:

How does nothing become something (two mutually exclusive existential states)?

When and where did the big bang happen?

Where was time before the big bang?

Where was space before the big bang?


For the creationist (determinism part 2) crowd:

How did God create everything in 7 days if the concept of time and day depends on man's perception of nature for count and measure? (I.E. Man/Woman had to already exist to mentally conceive of time as a concept to have any usefulness at all. You have to already exist to observe the sun and nature to start creating useful patterns of "time" measurement, for that to have any meaning at all)

How are we born with original sin, yet told we have freewill simultaneously? (Again two mutually exclusive ideas shoehorned as a rational concept millions accept with zero question)

Who created God? He's already absolute and infinite? ...So Nature, as we actually observe and experience it, can't be...?

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26168282 -

Loaded Shaman said:
Everyone in this thread has a different metaphysical assumption on creation/natural law, and thus will never be on the same page to have a coherent conversation without both sides sounding like they are missing the other's point.

It happens constantly. Actually, it's the main dividing line between opinions: what's your metaphysic?


I don't think it's nearly as mysterious as we try and make it out to be.

Our whole existence revolves around the organization of laws.  From criminal law to the digital constraints we apply in the code of videogame worlds.  We intentionally create systems that follow rules.  This phenomena of 'mind-creating-law' is all around us.

Why does nature behave at all?  Why does a physical force exist at all?  Why does nature proceed?  What motivates it?  Why does it consist?

Nature follows a law, therefore it had a law-giver. A high commander behind the commandment. A directing mind that exists outside of its creation, just as the human software engineer stands outside of his computer program.

But instead of seeing the truth, we pretend that it's all a big illusion.  Nature created itself and the rules that govern it... somehow.... ("science" is still working on it)  and then a bunch of stardust exploded in space and gradually organized itself into humans who use the internet and talk about philosophy. 

Like a bunch of 1's and 0's declaring the computer program is all that is or ever was....  And this willfully ignorant materialist cosmology is paraded as high-wisdom in our age.

I think it's mainly because we as people don't want to admit there is most likely an ultimate authority over us.  We want to be the masters of our own lives within the created system, so we willingly blind ourselves to the truth.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26168363 -

Loaded Shaman said:
Buster_Brown said:
Loaded Shaman said:
I think the idea of a creator is completely irrational.


Do you think the concept of Power is irrational? No, therefore it's not unreasonable to concede that power can give license to create. A hypothesis limited by limiting the hierarchy of power bearing entities to those of one's own cognizance is just that, limited. Is that irrational?


Power is a human mentally constructed concept, as you just admitted in your first sentence, which just like determinism is a concept, and is therefore an abstract, and not an actuality, so yes, any and all philosophical assumptions and presumptions based off of that premise being a metaphysical primary = irrational...



Determinism can be an abstract but I don't think a powerful force is considered so. A coherent, rational perspective would acknowledge the difference in my opinion.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26168376 -

saved7 said:
qman said:
saved7 said:
qman said:
The big bang is a natural process, so is biological life.


what is a "natural process" ?
and where did the rules governing this process come from?

seems very superstitious to believe in the spontaneous generation of mysterious undirected "processes" that govern all things...


"what is a natural process"

A process existing in or produced by nature.  https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/natural%20process


That's a dodge of the question... You're just saying "a natural process is a natural process."

Why does nature have a process to begin with?

Try making an argument for your worldview, because so far I haven't seen one.  I think it's because you know it's fundamentally irrational.


qman said:
Is there any evidence that "governing" takes place in nature?  Nobody has been able to present that evidence thus far. So I would stop using that argument, it's fallacious.  "govern all things"  Again, you need to demonstrate something in nature is being governed at all.


Of course nature is governed... by laws of nature.  We base our whole existence around the knowledge that nature continuously behaves a certain way.  Natural science would be impossible otherwise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law

Again, why does this thing called "nature" have any consistent behavior at all?  Where did it inherit these propensities from?  Did nature author itself?  What motivated it?


"Why does nature have a process to begin with?"

Maybe science knows the answer at some point, but you don't get to fill in the blank with supernatural or god. 

"why does this thing called 'nature' have any consistent behavior at all?"

What does it matter if we called it consistent or inconsistent observations in nature?  That isn't evidence for anything supernatural.

"Did nature author itself?"

Does nature need an author? Please demonstrate that assertion before asking a loaded question.

"What motivated it?"

Again, please demonstrate that nature needed a motivation. Loaded questions aren't helping you here.

You might want to also acknowledge that the early part of the universe was very different than today and in hundreds of billions of years from now the universe will also be very different. It's a very brief period of time that the universe appears to be consistent, but overall it's not at all.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26168802 -

Buster_Brown said:
Loaded Shaman said:
Buster_Brown said:
Loaded Shaman said:
I think the idea of a creator is completely irrational.


Do you think the concept of Power is irrational? No, therefore it's not unreasonable to concede that power can give license to create. A hypothesis limited by limiting the hierarchy of power bearing entities to those of one's own cognizance is just that, limited. Is that irrational?


Power is a human mentally constructed concept, as you just admitted in your first sentence, which just like determinism is a concept, and is therefore an abstract, and not an actuality, so yes, any and all philosophical assumptions and presumptions based off of that premise being a metaphysical primary = irrational...



Determinism can be an abstract but I don't think a powerful force is considered so. A coherent, rational perspective would acknowledge the difference in my opinion.


Again what is the difference between determinism and "power"? What's the purpose or ability of power? To CAUSE? Initiate? Preside over? So determinism? If not, what's the distinction that makes this useful and rational in your honest opinion? Serious questions!


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26168952 -

qman said:
"Why does nature have a process to begin with?"

Maybe science knows the answer at some point, but you don't get to fill in the blank with supernatural or god. 


I don't think you're so concerned with science so much that you've yet to fit that problem into a materialist belief system.

When nature becomes your god, it has to be in charge of everything.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26168958 -

The distinction between an unstoppable force and an abstract concept is measurable results. Your immovable abstract position must be seen to cave under the pressure. OK?

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26168968 -

it does not have to be god to be all pervasive.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26170354 -

Buster_Brown said:
The distinction between an unstoppable force and an abstract concept is measurable results. Your immovable abstract position must be seen to cave under the pressure. OK?


How abstract is it really?

Laws have authors.  As humans we are well aware of this phenomena and how such systems are issued forth from a designing mind. 

Anyone whose played a nintendo game can testify to that aspect of our reality.

However, the idea that nature is its own creator god,  that nature wrote the laws by which itself is governed.... does not even pass a smell test on the level of the abstract. It is entirely irrational. But such backwards materialistic thinking is embraced today as the highest wisdom... championed by our leading academic institutions... practically a foregone conclusion that "Science" is just waiting to figure out the details of.

It's incredible really, how desperate we are to run away from the truth of our creator, the author and architect of our universe.

God gave us the material and the reason to understand where it came from, and instead we make the material our god.

"When men nolonger believe in God, they will believe in anything."


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26170360 -

saved7 said:
qman said:
"Why does nature have a process to begin with?"

Maybe science knows the answer at some point, but you don't get to fill in the blank with supernatural or god. 


I don't think you're so concerned with science so much that you've yet to fit that problem into a materialist belief system.

When nature becomes your god, it has to be in charge of everything.


Hmm, what makes you think nature has become my god?  Let's be perfectly clear here, I'm NOT saying there's no supernatural god. I just need to see that demonstrated, thus far there's nothing. I'm completely open to the possibility.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26170677 -

saved7 said:
...the idea that nature is its own creator god,  that nature wrote the laws by which itself is governed.... does not even pass a smell test on the level of the abstract. It is entirely irrational.


Do gods have to be rational?

Here I give you a link to a conversation that includes, in my opinion, the irrational. But under the auspices of "The Last will be First" the irrational may not be a hinderance to policy.

https://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=337303

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26170793 -

You may ask where does "The Last will be First" enters into the equation, and I proffer the following hints (altho you may have to be English to understand 'Curtains')

Curtains - Elton John -Youtube

Absolutely Curtains - Pink Floyd - Youtube

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Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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